Records in private ownership

[Heartland]

The discussion concerning the Gauging Register, whose information contained within its pages might benefit historians and general research, may be extended into a more general theatre. For there are records in private possession which may prove to be a benefit to understanding canal history.

 

One of the most important areas in this category encompasses the Trent & Mersey Canal, whose minutes prior to the take over by the North Sfaffordshire Railway do no exist in the public archive sources. Some people like Mr Gladwin, have indicated their possible continued existence, yet if any such records exist it would be useful to know where they might be.

 

Ray Shill

[Athy]

Damn! I saw the thread title and thought that somebody had a collection of 45s to sell.

Sorry Ray.

[Joseph]

Hi Ray

 

You make an excellent point. It would be helpful to know what specific waterways records remain in private hands - and whether they are secure in such hands.

 

I read somewhere (I think it was a letter from Peter lead) that many Trent & Mersey records were systematically burnt just before nationalisation - rather like what happened to many private mining records on the eve of nationalisation. As a consequence of the latter, people probably died, when old flooded workings, records of whose existence had been destroyed, were cut into.

 

Anecdotally, I recall from my researches into Charles Hadfield's work that the records of the Tennant Canal in Wales were still in private hands. He also found that there were significant letters, related to the Caledonian Canal, whose private owner would not (then) permit to be viewed.

 

These are only anecdotal but it would be useful to have a list of what is privately kept and (frankly) whether these records are in any way accessible and if they are secure. By secure I mean not just from theft but with some clear guidance as to what should happen should their owner expire.

 

I would be very interested to learn what anyone else thinks.

 

Joseph

[Derek R.]

It is a sad fact that our canal 'heritage', the infrastructure as well as many vessels that are under the control of previously British Waterways and now the Canal & River Trust, have shown more concern over making profit from sales of land and buildings, and all else is left to rot. Some of this neglect has come about from circumstance, some from lack of funding but the bottom line must surely come down to lack of sound structured management. Items donated to museums and trusts, have gone astray, which leaves the private sector, and in regard to boats this is where the preservation and restoration of same has been the most active and successful.

 

With regard to records, I can only think that some kind of historical society like a guild, could hold a library supported by subscription to house and archive such records as they exist, making available either first hand sight or copies to interested parties as required. The Vintage Motor Cycle Club has just such a library in their headquarters in Burton on Trent, and members can visit and access a vast collection of documents and books for reference. There are also private individuals with records, and what they do with them is their business - though mostly they are of individual and anecdotal nature. Something of a wider and National historic value or interest should need to be considered in a slightly different light.

 

With historic records on National significance held by individuals who are willing to hawk them for maximum profit, are they little better than those who once allegedly destroyed them? It is not like they are old motorbikes or boats that may be changed from their original format to better serve their owners. The individuals may have seen a 'nest egg' developing from collections gathered, but the benefits to the many can be lost to that of the one. That I feel is an imbalance that needs altering - but how, to appease all?

[Heartland]

I would have thought Athy had more interest in 78's than 45's, yet both forms of sound recording may have applications to canal history. It would be interesting to know if they exist like the railway counterparts that have recordings of steam locomotives.

 

Regarding the Peter Lead observation that most Trent & Mersey Canal records were burnt, is also known to me, although I find it strange that both TM and NS were in LMS hands at nationalisation and the NS minutes (both railway and canal related) records are at Kew. The problem with the T & M is how that canal was run and how closely the Henshall, Sparrows and Wedgwoods controlled that undertaking and what records were kept. Certain account books do exist at Kew by the way.

 

I did wonder if the Wedgwood Museum had some information, but they are a hard organisation to deal with.

 

Ray Shill

[Joseph]

Interesting point Ray

 

It might be useful for someone (preferably not me, but I'd help) to produce lists of

 

1. Records known to be in private ownership and inaccessible.

2. Records known to be in private ownership but accessible in some way (e.g. by permission, estates papers etc)

3. Records known to have been destroyed (e.g.one Calder & Hebble volume, T&M)

4. Records that either don't seem to exist now or have gone missing.

5. Records that might be expected to exist but which probably never did (e.g. Shropshire Union details of carrying on various lengths).

 

Well, I was never a civil servant, but maybe I should have been.

 

If anyone takes this suggestion seriously, maybe some sort of register could be started, and hosted on the RCHS site, perhaps?

 

Just a thought.

 

Joseph

[Laurence Hogg]

This link may be of interest to this discussion, BW TWT were both offered this but failed to make a sensible offer which was reasonable and worse I offered to exchange it for unused goods they dont display and that was a dead duck too.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOUND-OXFORD-CANAL-NARROW-BOAT-GAUGING-TABLES-BOOK-INCLUDING-FRIENDSHIP-RARE-/151135628598?pt=UK_Collectables_Paper_RL&hash=item233062ad36

[Joseph]

Thank you Laurence - very interesting

 

I note the ebay blurb which says "all of its information is transcribed elsewhere". Thank heaven for that. I don't feel that TWT/BW/CRT should necessarily be paying out for this artefact, frankly, but the information is what would interest researchers.

 

Does anyone know who are the people who have this information?

 

Joseph

[AMModels]

Thank you Laurence - very interesting

 

I note the ebay blurb which says "all of its information is transcribed elsewhere". Thank heaven for that. I don't feel that TWT/BW/CRT should necessarily be paying out for this artefact, frankly, but the information is what would interest researchers.

 

Does anyone know who are the people who have this information?

 

Joseph

 

Who should be paying out for this information if not TWT/CRT who want to display it in their museum? Donating it to these organisations has in the past merely reinforced the view that they dont look after that which is entrusted into their hands; maybe by paying for it they won't be so likely to stick it in a cupboard and forget about it or even worse allow it to disappear from existence at some point in the future.

[Joseph]

Hi

 

Points generally taken. But I do think that a distinction needs to be made between the TWT-managed historic collections and the present management. Some materials do seem to have disappeared (or been displaced), but some of the stories that I have been told about this, over the years, seem to relate to the 1970s and 1980s, when the archives and collections were much more informal than they are now.

 

My main point, I think, echoes Ray's - policies about the acquisition of precious items like this are one thing, but the use of the information which these items feature is another. I suspect that it is the information that matters to many researchers, and if this has been transcribed from the original document, the document can be safely left in private hands. That's one view, anyway. What concerns me personally is that there are documents that provide evidence for history, whose contents are unknown or inaccessible. Hence my suggestion that some sort of list be compiled - if people know about the existence of material that is not publicly available.

 

If the only way to make that material available is by outright purchase of the document, I'm all for it.

 

Just some thoughts - I have no particular axe to grind.

 

J

[AMModels]

I agree regarding the information from the documents, its the kind of thing I dream of including in my website but we have to respect the fact that whomever has the documents also has the right to disseminate it at their own pace. They havent done too much wrong in looking after it for the past 40-50 years after all, its still in existence which is the main thing imo.

[pete harrison]

Thank you Laurence - very interesting

 

Does anyone know who are the people who have this information?

 

Joseph

The most interesting thing about gauge registers is that each copy is slightly different, depending on where the register was lodged and how thorough the toll clerk was at maintaining his version of these records.

Edited October 11, 2013 by pete harrison

[Heartland]

The existence of records, and maps, outside the what is known, can only assist the general understanding of our waterways history. Such items still come to light and a recent example is the map that shows the intended extension of the BCN from Broadwaters to Bilston and Willenhall, a scheme that preceded the Walsall Canal Act of 1794. This map helps researchers understand how the BCN was evolving into the network it became influenced by factors such as the requirements of ironmasters/ coalmasters and trade to various places. This map, or a copy of it, is now with the BCN Society.

 

Ray Shill

[Athy]

I would have thought Athy had more interest in 78's than 45's,

[quote

Nope, mainly 45s for me, both for my own collection and for my professional sales. I do own a few significant 78s (original copy of Elvis' 'Hound Dog' for instance) but rarely play them.

There were indeed many LPs of steam locomotive noises released from the '50s onwards, both here and in the States, but I don't know of any recordings of boat sounds which were commercially available, unless they were incidental to some type of documentary.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Athy

[Tam & Di]

The most interesting thing about gauge registers is that each copy is slightly different, depending on where the register was lodged and how thorough the toll clerk was at maintaining his version of these records.

We rescued the guaging records from Brentford when BW were closing the toll office there. There was also one book for the Oxford Canal Co. The GU ones had a lot of interesting local barge entries for companies such as Mannie Smith. When we moved out of the Toll House at Bulls Bridge we had nowhere to keep them and offered them to various museums, but none were interested. We sold them for a song to a book dealer in Bristol who also took our whole collection of Roger Pilkington tomes.

 

Tam

[Heartland]

Not all Record Offices or Museums had this negative view. Keith Steele for example rescued records from the BCN that are now at Walsall Archives.

 

Ray Shill

[stort_mark]

Not all Record Offices or Museums had this negative view. Keith Steele for example rescued records from the BCN that are now at Walsall Archives.

 

Ray Shill

 

A couple of years ago when I had a **lot** more time, I got interested in why the Wednesbury Old Canal actually went to where it went to, and started tracking down some of the records of the early Hilltop mines. The archives people at various West Bromwich and Walsall were, I recall, especially friendly and helpful and one member of staff told me that theres quite a lot of "canal-related" information in the old mine documents. Unfortunately, lack of time has prevented me follwing this up.

[Heartland]

Walsall, Coseley and Wolverhampton has documented much of their records, detail of which are available on the Black Country website. Smethwick records are harder to find.

 

Ray Shill