Side Ponds

[NickF]

I was just reading a blog from a regular CWDF member http://nbbriarrose.blogspot.co.uk/ and he mentions using a side pond on the Atherstone flight. He says there are only a few left that still work ... I have seen one on the Caldon canal ... are there any others still working?

Nick

[john6767]

Driotwich, although one of the 3 was out of action earlier in the year.

[NickF]

Excellent I hope to go there next year... I will make a point of using it!

Nick

[Guest]

Aren't Foxton sidepond locks??

[Paul C]

There is a thread somewhere on the site about the Droitwich side ponds. The problem is, with one of the ponds' paddles out of action, the pound just above of it gets drained as locks get used. So effectively they are useless, since you need to run water down to fill it up to get through the locks. I wish CRT would realise this and if one side pond is broken, chain off all 3 instead of leaving them with notices to encourage their use.

[NickF]

Aren't Foxton sidepond locks??

Interesting question .. I suppose they are but not in quite the same way as Atherstone which allows you to use only half a lock full of water by having a sort if interim level.

Nick

[john6767]

Aren't Foxton sidepond locks??

I would say not. Foxton and Watford work on a different principle to other staircases, the actual lock chambers are not directly connected to each other at all, they are only connected to the "side ponds"/"side pounds" whatever you call them, and all the water goes via them, hence the "red before white" approach with the paddles.

 

I really like the design, and I think it avoids the issue with normal staircases wasting a lock full of water, but no doubt I will be corrected if that is not the case!

[by'eck]

I note that side pounds (not ponds) are sometimes used where individual locks are close together. This to increase the volume of water in the short pound and in so doing reduce the real likelihood of big level variations.

[john6767]

I note that side pounds (not ponds) are sometimes used where individual locks are close together. This to increase the volume of water in the short pound and in so doing reduce the real likelihood of big level variations.

Or to provide the only volume of water, such as at Bratch and the one on Stourbridge.

 

It does seem that the Foxton case neither fits with "side pond" or "side pound" in it's normal usage context.

[OldGoat]

The remaining Atherstone side-pound is brill 'cos it fills the lock faster (by itself) than using the top paddle - we tried it a couple of weeks ago.

 

(The Atherstone flight is slow to fill and quick to empty)

 

[David Schweizer]

I note that side pounds (not ponds) are sometimes used where individual locks are close together. This to increase the volume of water in the short pound and in so doing reduce the real likelihood of big level variations.

 

What is the basis for that assurance? when I started boating in the 1960's many of the locks on the Grand Union had them, They may have been spelt "Pounds" but the working boatmen called them "Ponds"

[Paul C]

 

What is the basis for that assurance? when I started boating in the 1960's many of the locks on the Grand Union had them, They may have been spelt "Pounds" but the working boatmen called them "Ponds"

 

Its just semantics: Side pond is linked to the lock via a paddle, therefore can be filled and emptied under control.

Side pound is the bit in between the locks and doesn't have any paddles of its own (save for the paddles at the end of each lock, which can of course alter the level of the pound).

 

How would you define/label the two different ways of managing water (level)?

Edited September 1, 2013 by Paul C

[David Schweizer]

Ah yes, I get it now. We are talking about two different types of structure, Side Pounds as on the Caen Hill flight, and side Ponds as next to the three locks at Soulburty on the G.U. and elsewhere on the |G.U.

Edited September 1, 2013 by David Schweizer

[DaveC]

Ah yes, I get it now. We are talking about two different types of structure, Side Pounds as on the Caen Hill flight, and side Ponds as next to the three locks at Soulburty on the G.U. and elsewhere on the |G.U.

 

When I worked for the BWB they were known as side PONDS on the Caen Hill flight.

 

 

Dave

[ditchcrawler]

Aren't Foxton sidepond locks??

No I think sidepounds is the word, they are the pound between each chamber.

There is a thread somewhere on the site about the Droitwich side ponds. The problem is, with one of the ponds' paddles out of action, the pound just above of it gets drained as locks get used. So effectively they are useless, since you need to run water down to fill it up to get through the locks. I wish CRT would realise this and if one side pond is broken, chain off all 3 instead of leaving them with notices to encourage their use.

Very true

[by'eck]

 

What is the basis for that assurance? when I started boating in the 1960's many of the locks on the Grand Union had them, They may have been spelt "Pounds" but the working boatmen called them "Ponds"

 

What the working boatmen called them is irrelevant to my post. I used the word pound to differentiate between those that were an integral part of the pound between closely located separate locks as in a flight, and water saving ponds with associated paddles to fill/empty them.

 

Example of side pound on Caen Hill flight.

 

 

 

 

Aren't Foxton sidepond locks??

 

No I think sidepounds is the word, they are the pound between each chamber.

 

Following on from above I think it a special case where such are associated with a staircase lock since the ponds are used to fill/empty the chamber below/above respectively rather than being located between upper and lower levels of a single lock. I was told their function was more to do with quick emptying and filling of the chambers than to save water. I still prefer to side (pun?) with DH in calling them ponds though, since there clearly can't be a pound between chambers in a staircase lock.

 

See here for full explanation.

Edited September 1, 2013 by by'eck

[NickF]

 

What the working boatmen called them is irrelevant to my post. I used the word pound to differentiate between those that were an integral part of the pound between closely located separate locks as in a flight, and water saving ponds with associated paddles to fill/empty them.

 

Example of side pound on Caen Hill flight.

 

 

 

 

Following on from above I think it a special case where such are associated with a staircase lock since the ponds are used to fill/empty the chamber below/above respectively rather than being located between upper and lower levels of a single lock. I was told their function was more to do with quick emptying and filling of the chambers than to save water. I still prefer to side (pun?) with DH in calling them ponds though, since there clearly can't be a pound between chambers in a staircase lock.

 

See here for full explanation.

I agree the side ponds / pounds at Foxton are not whet I meant in my original question but I would say they are designed to save water. Bingley uses five locks of water per passage whereas Foxton uses only one ..... quite a saving!

Nick

[by'eck]

I agree the side ponds / pounds at Foxton are not whet I meant in my original question but I would say they are designed to save water. Bingley uses five locks of water per passage whereas Foxton uses only one ..... quite a saving!

Nick

 

Not convinced that's the case NIck. Staircase locks benefit from a group of boats travelling in the same direction unlike individual ones where passing boats leave a lock set for the next.

 

Taking the case of three boats travelling up Bingley five rise followed by three coming down and assuming the bottom chamber is empty and the others full initially. Just one lockful of water will be used by each going up. Five lockfuls will be wasted to set the staircase for the descent though. After that it will just be one lockfull for each craft descending.

 

I don't see either of the Foxton staircase locks using any less since the water travels down to next chamber although via a side pond above. Coming up the side ponds provide the reservoir of water to fill the next chamber saving them having to be pre-filled, but the quantity used is nominally the same I would have thought.

 

The difference is Foxton is an apparent staircase compared with a real one at Bingley. Read description here

[NickF]

By'eck it's not as simple as it looks is it! A single boat down Foxton with all the locks set against it would take one lockful from the top pound and put one lockful in the bottom pound. A single boat down Bingley with all against it would do the same! I agree it depends on whether the locks are for or against and hence whether boats are travelling in the same or opposite directions!

 

Perhaps the best answer is to restore the inclined plane and use no water! (or at least only the displacement of the boat but that's a different story!)

 

Nick

[by'eck]

By'eck it's not as simple as it looks is it! A single boat down Foxton with all the locks set against it would take one lockful from the top pound and put one lockful in the bottom pound. A single boat down Bingley with all against it would do the same! I agree it depends on whether the locks are for or against and hence whether boats are travelling in the same or opposite directions!

 

Perhaps the best answer is to restore the inclined plane and use no water! (or at least only the displacement of the boat but that's a different story!)

 

Nick

 

It may happen but perhaps not in my lifetime

[john6767]

 

The difference is Foxton is an apparent staircase compared with a real one at Bingley. Read description here

Not heard the term "apparent staircase" before, and a google search only seems to come up with that exact same wording in different locations, is that a general term or just something someone made up on Wikipedia and has been copied?

Edited September 2, 2013 by john6767

[Paul C]

It sounds to me like someone's made it up. Either its a real staircase, or its not! It seems a reasonable way of describing how Foxton etc work though.

[Guest]

Interestingly Jim Shead's site refers to side ponds not side pounds at Foxton.....

 

Staircase lock clicky

 

this was not the case on the Grand Union and side ponds were provided to reduce water use at the Foxton and Watford staircases.

[Pluto]

 

What the working boatmen called them is irrelevant to my post. I used the word pound to differentiate between those that were an integral part of the pound between closely located separate locks as in a flight, and water saving ponds with associated paddles to fill/empty them.

 

 

 

See here for full explanation.

Pounds were always called pools on the L&LC, so don't believe all you read.

[by'eck]

Pounds were always called pools on the L&LC, so don't believe all you read.

 

I don't .

 

At the end of the day what you call them is just a question of semantics as already mentioned. Calling the water integral with and to the side of a short pound between two closely located locks a side pound seems a no brainer though, accurately explaining its purpose.

 

I agree the Wicki article naming the two types of staircase lock as real and apparent sounds a little fabricated but clearly there is a difference.

 

I think Jim Shead's article accurately sums up Foxton staircase locks when he explains that the side ponds save the need to set the chambers in advance, as with a normal (real?) one, when preparing to send craft in the opposite direction.

 

FWIW the lockie on duty at Foxton a few weeks ago spent sometime explaining their operation and placing a high priority on the fact that it sped passage through each set.