Visitor numbers

[mayalld]

In a longish thread about how much CRT wants to engage with boaters, an unflattering comparison was drawn between 35k boaters and 10m visitors

 

It is, of course, not a valid comparison, as 35k boat licences does not equal 35k people who see their involvement with the canals as "boater". Many boats have more than 1 "boater" (indeed a 10 berth hire boat that is let out 30 times a year actually has 300 boaters.

 

This survey seeks to decide how many of the 10m people who visit the waterways each year are actually boaters, to redress the balance as to what percentage of visitors are boaters.

 

CRT also bandy about a figure of 260m "visits", and based on a definition of a "visit" as being one person who is present on a CRT waterway on a particular day, I am seeking to work out what percentage of visits are by boaters.

 

 

[BargeeSpud]

Bum!

 

I voted before reading the rules. I didn't take into account an individual day as being a visit, I voted just for visits. If I'd voted days, it would've been double.

[Fu Manchu]

After 8 votes, the maximum number of boaters on a boat is 4. There are 365 days a year. So how can there be more than 3000 visits from the boat, based on a definition of a "visit" as being one person who is present on a CRT waterway on a particular day?

 

The poll was a good idea, but if it is not being taken seriously ....

[Midnight Rider]

First of all, is there any evidence to back up the number of visitors & visits, or are they just figures plucked out the air?

 

If there is no evidence, is there any point in trying to find out the boater numbers?

[system 4-50]

Bum!

 

I voted before reading the rules. I didn't take into account an individual day as being a visit, I voted just for visits. If I'd voted days, it would've been double.

Me too. Visit is the wrong word.

[Gingerbeer]

What exactly does 10M visitors mean?

Does that mean those who live around their local canal and walk, cycle, jog the towpath?

Does it mean those who travel from one area to another canal in the same area to walk, cycle, jog the towpath?

Does it mean visitors from another county who go to w,c, j the towpath?

Does it mean visitors who come from other countries to have a look at the canal?

If one person uses it daily because they live nearby, do they count it as 1 or 365 visits?

If there is a touristy town with a canal, do they assume all the visitors who visit also go to the canal?

If 10M people visit London each year and go to see the Regent's or Grand Union Canal, is that how it is counted?

 

Unless you have a specific way to tally up what visitors go to which canal every year, then you have no real way of knowing what that number is. Just wondering how 10M was decided on and not 5.8M or 12.345M

[Guest]

Bum!

 

I voted before reading the rules. I didn't take into account an individual day as being a visit, I voted just for visits. If I'd voted days, it would've been double.

 

You can delete your vote using the button at the bottom of the bar graph ~ and then re-vote how you would have done had you read the 'rules'

[mayalld]

Me too. Visit is the wrong word.

 

It is the word used by CRT.

 

If there are 260m "visits" per year, then a liveaboard couple accounts for 700 "visits".

 

A family of 4 that uses the boat 30 weekends (Friday to Sunday) a year and a couple of weeks is around 400 "visits"

[Leni]

I'm finding this somewhat difficult to answer!

 

During most of 2012 there was just one boater on my boat most days of the year, but there was no-one on her over several weekends. A fair amount of the time there were 4 'boaters' on her - if we count the grandkids as 'boaters'! Once or twice during the year there were 6 or more, and at New Year there were as many as a dozen!

 

So, do I count each day on the boat by each 'boater' as one 'visit'? Only it's beginning to look as though it would take a long and somewhat complicated sum, and I'm not very good at sums!

[mayalld]

What exactly does 10M visitors mean?

Does that mean those who live around their local canal and walk, cycle, jog the towpath?

Does it mean those who travel from one area to another canal in the same area to walk, cycle, jog the towpath?

Does it mean visitors from another county who go to w,c, j the towpath?

Does it mean visitors who come from other countries to have a look at the canal?

If one person uses it daily because they live nearby, do they count it as 1 or 365 visits?

If there is a touristy town with a canal, do they assume all the visitors who visit also go to the canal?

If 10M people visit London each year and go to see the Regent's or Grand Union Canal, is that how it is counted?

 

Unless you have a specific way to tally up what visitors go to which canal every year, then you have no real way of knowing what that number is. Just wondering how 10M was decided on and not 5.8M or 12.345M

 

A visit occurs when a person is present on the inland waterways on a particular day.

 

Bev and I will be off up to the boat tonight, and will be there until Sunday. That is 6 "visits" out of the 260 million visits.

 

However, we will only count as 2 "visitors", no matter how often we are there.

 

Somebody who walks his dog along the towpath once a day is 1 "visitor" but 365 "visits". If he walks his dog twice a day, it is still 365 "visits"

Bum!

 

I voted before reading the rules. I didn't take into account an individual day as being a visit, I voted just for visits. If I'd voted days, it would've been double.

 

You can delete your vote and try again

[billS]

Someone has posted 3001-5000 visits per annum, whiich equates to at least 9 per day. Is that a very overcrowded live aboard or is someone classing trip boat passengers as boaters?

[BargeeSpud]

 

You can delete your vote using the button at the bottom of the bar graph ~ and then re-vote how you would have done had you read the 'rules'

 

Cheers Martin, much appreciated mate. Done

 

And same to mayalid too.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Spuds

[mayalld]

I'm finding this somewhat difficult to answer!

 

During most of 2012 there was just one boater on my boat most days of the year, but there was no-one on her over several weekends. A fair amount of the time there were 4 'boaters' on her - if we count the grandkids as 'boaters'! Once or twice during the year there were 6 or more, and at New Year there were as many as a dozen!

 

So, do I count each day on the boat by each 'boater' as one 'visit'? Only it's beginning to look as though it would take a long and somewhat complicated sum, and I'm not very good at sums!

 

For the purpose of the poll, I would define a boater as somebody whose visit to a canal is with the intention of going on board a boat.

 

Broadly speaking somebody for whom the maintenance of the canal in a condition suitable for boats to use it is vital to their use.

 

The number of boaters is the number of distinct people that were on board your boat (other than people who have their own boat)

 

The number of visits is as you say, each day upon which any of these people were on board is a visit.

[carlt]

Someone has posted 3001-5000 visits per annum, whiich equates to at least 9 per day. Is that a very overcrowded live aboard or is someone classing trip boat passengers as boaters?

Doesn't DeanS have a whole tribe living aboard his boat?

[cheshire~rose]

I pitty poor Richard (RLWP)

 

How many people use his boat and how many "visits" does his boat account for. If you include all the people who just stop by for a bit of Sue's cake and a cuppa when it is moored at a banter site.

 

I think there could be steam coming out of his calculator as he number crunches but when he gets a figure it is going to right high up there because Tawny Owl is usually host to several, is occasionaly host to lots and has been known to host thousands!

 

 

Oh! I just thought - I never counted all the people who travelled in our well deck as part of Odana and Black Beauty's wedding parade .....

[Leni]

 

For the purpose of the poll, I would define a boater as somebody whose visit to a canal is with the intention of going on board a boat.

 

Broadly speaking somebody for whom the maintenance of the canal in a condition suitable for boats to use it is vital to their use.

 

The number of boaters is the number of distinct people that were on board your boat (other than people who have their own boat)

 

The number of visits is as you say, each day upon which any of these people were on board is a visit.

 

Thanks for the clarification. However, I think to answer honestly I would have to say that - since for most of the time it's my son who is the only one on the boat - there is really only one 'boater'. If I then do a (very rough) calculation of the number of visitors to the boat during 2012, and the number of times they visited, I would have to tick the 501 - 1000 box. I can't help feeling that this somewhat 'skews' the figures!

[carlt]

 

I can't help feeling that this somewhat 'skews' the figures!

I can't help feeling that in order to reach the figure of 10 million CRT have to count every time a car goes over a humpback bridge as a "visit".

[cheshire~rose]

Perhaps if we cound each time a dog poops it would be a "visit"

[mayalld]

 

Thanks for the clarification. However, I think to answer honestly I would have to say that - since for most of the time it's my son who is the only one on the boat - there is really only one 'boater'. If I then do a (very rough) calculation of the number of visitors to the boat during 2012, and the number of times they visited, I would have to tick the 501 - 1000 box. I can't help feeling that this somewhat 'skews' the figures!

 

The thing is that it doesn't skew the figures, because we are trying to compare like with like.

 

CRT would count a dog walker as 365 visits. They would count somebody who takes a shortcut along the towpath on the way to work as a visitor.

 

That is where they get 10 million visitors (1 in 6 of the population sets foot on the towpath during the year), and 260 million visits

 

There may well be only 35,000 boats, but there are far more than 35,000 people who visit the canals who wouldn't visit if the boat that they are going to wasn't there.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

The thing is that it doesn't skew the figures, because we are trying to compare like with like.

 

CRT would count a dog walker as 365 visits. They would count somebody who takes a shortcut along the towpath on the way to work as a visitor.

 

That is where they get 10 million visitors (1 in 6 of the population sets foot on the towpath during the year), and 260 million visits

 

There may well be only 35,000 boats, but there are far more than 35,000 people who visit the canals who wouldn't visit if the boat that they are going to wasn't there.

It's 9.9m visitors not 10m.

It's 297m visits not 260m.

It's 33,227 boats not 35,000.

 

That is if you believe CaRT's figures.

I am more concerned that boat numbers and visitor numbers have both fallen under CaRT rather than the split between boater and non boater visitors.

 

[DeanS]

Doesn't DeanS have a whole tribe living aboard his boat?

Yes...I've swayed the results

 

(1 in 6 of the population sets foot on the towpath during the year)

 

That sounds fabricated. And if they do, they would still walk that route if it was filled with sand.

[David Mack]

It's 9.9m visitors not 10m.

It's 297m visits not 260m.

It's 33,227 boats not 35,000.

 

That is if you believe CaRT's figures.

 

Ignoring overseas visitors, those figures imply something like 1 in 7 of the UK population visit a canal at least once a year, with an average of 26 visits per person per year. If you use a broad enough definition of 'visit' I can just about believe the first number, but the second is just not credible! There must be plenty of boatowners out there who don't notch up 26 days per year.

It's 9.9m visitors not 10m.

It's 297m visits not 260m.

It's 33,227 boats not 35,000.

 

That is if you believe CaRT's figures.

 

Ignoring overseas visitors, those figures imply something like 1 in 7 of the UK population visit a canal at least once a year, with an average of 26 visits per person per year. If you use a broad enough definition of 'visit' I can just about believe the first number, but the second is just not credible! There must be plenty of boatowners out there who don't notch up 26 days per year.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

That last post shows

 

Ignoring overseas visitors, those figures imply something like 1 in 7 of the UK population visit a canal at least once a year, with an average of 26 visits per person per year. If you use a broad enough definition of 'visit' I can just about believe the first number, but the second is just not credible! There must be plenty of boatowners out there who don't notch up 26 days per year.

Ignoring overseas visitors, those figures imply something like 1 in 7 of the UK population visit a canal at least once a year, with an average of 26 visits per person per year. If you use a broad enough definition of 'visit' I can just about believe the first number, but the second is just not credible! There must be plenty of boatowners out there who don't notch up 26 days per year.

I would not get too hung up about the way in which CaRT manipulates visitor numbers as these are not the figures that it uses as key performance indicators for the delivery of public benefit.

I suggest you read The Visitors Scandal

That article is over 18 months old and since then we have had figures for 2011/12 (3.6m) and 2012/13 (3.2m).

In short, BW set out to double visitor numbers over a ten year period spending millions in the process. Instead of 7.2m they ended back where they started on 3.6m. Now the figure is 3.2m.

Mitigating factors are the loss of Scotland and poor weather. However, there has been a deliberate attempt to mislead the public with regard to visitor numbers both under BW and CaRT.

[FredDrift]

... post deleted

Edited August 16, 2013 by happynomad

[mayalld]

Ignoring overseas visitors, those figures imply something like 1 in 7 of the UK population visit a canal at least once a year, with an average of 26 visits per person per year. If you use a broad enough definition of 'visit' I can just about believe the first number, but the second is just not credible! There must be plenty of boatowners out there who don't notch up 26 days per year.

 

And equally, there are many boat owners who notch up 365 days a year, and many dog walkers and towpath commuters...

 

You are falling into the trap of thinking that a visitor or a visit involves somebody who visits a canal specifically because it is a canal. To many of the visitors, the fact that it is a canal is entirely immaterial. They are only interested in the path that is there.