European Union Attacks Red Diesel For Boaters.

[Beaker]

the petition doesn't raise awareness of the position. It tries to raise awareness of something that isn't the position, and having ranted about one thing to slip in a call for an entirely different thing.

 

If vast numbers of boaters signed this petition, it would send but one message. That message would be;

 

"These boaters haven't actually got a CLUE about anything, we can safely ignore them"

 

This petition is counterproductive.

That's exactly why I haven't signed it, when I first looked at it I felt a bit embarrassed for whoever wrote it.

[Dave_P]

I can see a future where obtaining fuel on the cut becomes a difficult and costly business. If boatyards can't sell red and can't compete with the forecourt on white, why will they even bother selling it. Marina's will probably still have them, if only as a service to their moorers, but prices will be high. Small boat yards and places like Wheaton Aston? Why would they bother selling diesel at all? The hassle and cost to them will make it effectively unviable. Expect to have to make trips to the forecourt to fill your jerry cans....

 

My understanding is that this is exactly why the EU allowed the current situation. I don't see what's changed.

[Doorman]

I can see a future where obtaining fuel on the cut becomes a difficult and costly business. If boatyards can't sell red and can't compete with the forecourt on white, why will they even bother selling it. Marina's will probably still have them, if only as a service to their moorers, but prices will be high. Small boat yards and places like Wheaton Aston? Why would they bother selling diesel at all? The hassle and cost to them will make it effectively unviable. Expect to have to make trips to the forecourt to fill your jerry cans....

.

Maybe then, if your forecast becomes a reality, will the members on here who show so much enthusiasm for this latest unwelcome intervention from the overpaid European bureaucrats, realise the errors of their ways.

 

For anyone in this country, where you can't pass wind without the taxman wishing to quantify it, willingly advocating further taxation that will cost more to retrieve than what it yields simply beggars belief!

Edited August 8, 2013 by Doorman

[mayalld]

Maybe then, if your forecast becomes a reality, will the members on here who show so much enthusiasm for this latest unwelcome intervention from the overpaid European bureaucrats, realise the errors of their ways.

 

For anyone in this country, where you can't pass wind without the taxman wishing to quantify it, willingly advocating further taxation that will cost more to retrieve than what it yields simply beggars belief!

 

I don't see any enthusiasm for this change.

 

Don't confuse thinking this petition impossible to support with any agreement with the EU on the issue

[Hawkmoth]

 

I don't see any enthusiasm for this change.

 

 

Can I draw your attention to posts 3&4. They sound enthusiastic for the change.

[Doorman]

Can I draw your attention to posts 3&4. They sound enthusiastic for the change.

Quite.

[Doorman]

Today's news highlighted the ongoing tax fraud involving hundreds of millions in lost revenue, with only one out of twenty criminals captured so far.

 

Priorities anyone?

[Rich]

Truth be told, you don't like what I am saying

 

No, it is you and your attitude that I don't like (that's truthful). You attack people for no obvious point other than to tell the rest of us what a clever fellow you are. You describe the petition as semi-literate so, presumably you would consider the composer as semi-literate. That may or may not be the case but should that be so it is somewhat ill-mannered to make the statement.

 

You attacked me on this forum some time ago by posting into a thread the fact that I might wish to my rephrase my post and loose the double negative and that was all, there was no useful input into the subject of the thread, just you showing what a clever man you are. There was no double negative thus demonstrating you weren't as clever as you thought.

 

You made an insulting post on uk.rec.waterways some years ago with no apparent provocation other than to show what WACMYA

 

Your name crops up on "What do They Know" and again you are putting people right. Adding nothing to the matter but pointing out that the original request had been answered, although not to the posters satisfaction, but they should now shut up and accept what they had been told.

 

You are offensive on this forum but no one seems to think it unacceptable. Sometimes you do manage to supply information that is useful and relevant (Google is your friend) without being insulting. Shame it doesn't happened more often.

 

A while ago I referred to you as obnoxious and a number of members leapt to your defense. I suppose this will happen again. I will survive it. I also expect you to inform me that my opinion of you does not concern you at all. Fine, go ahead, you have my permission.

 

I further suspect that this post may well "disappear" as I am being critical of the great god mayalld.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Rich

[mayalld]

 

No, it is you and your attitude that I don't like (that's truthful). You attack people for no obvious point other than to tell the rest of us what a clever fellow you are. You describe the petition as semi-literate so, presumably you would consider the composer as semi-literate. That may or may not be the case but should that be so it is somewhat ill-mannered to make the statement.

 

You attacked me on this forum some time ago by posting into a thread the fact that I might wish to my rephrase my post and loose the double negative and that was all, there was no useful input into the subject of the thread, just you showing what a clever man you are. There was no double negative thus demonstrating you weren't as clever as you thought.

 

You made an insulting post on uk.rec.waterways some years ago with no apparent provocation other than to show what WACMYA

 

Your name crops up on "What do They Know" and again you are putting people right. Adding nothing to the matter but pointing out that the original request had been answered, although not to the posters satisfaction, but they should now shut up and accept what they had been told.

 

You are offensive on this forum but no one seems to think it unacceptable. Sometimes you do manage to supply information that is useful and relevant (Google is your friend) without being insulting. Shame it doesn't happened more often.

 

A while ago I referred to you as obnoxious and a number of members leapt to your defense. I suppose this will happen again. I will survive it. I also expect you to inform me that my opinion of you does not concern you at all. Fine, go ahead, you have my permission.

 

I further suspect that this post may well "disappear" as I am being critical of the great god mayalld.

 

I suspect that you are utterly wrong on that last point, as I'm pretty certain that none of the moderating team think of me as a "great god". Clearly Google isn't that great a friend to you if you imagine that the moderators see me in that way.

 

I have to say that I am impressed that I mean so much to you that you appear to be amassing a dossier of my activities over the years, whilst I was unable (without the assistance of my friend Google) to recall who you are.

 

The fact that you still appear to be holding a grudge about a post that I made FOUR YEARS ago in response to a post of yours that contained so many negatives that it made it difficult to understand (http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=25186&page=2#entry421254) suggests that you are being rather obsessive about this.

 

I made loads of posts on urw (these are even longer ago, have you considered that your obsession may be an issue). I can hardly comment without knowing which you take issue with.

 

Yes, my name crops up on "What do they Know". https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/the_real_breach_of_the_law Somebody was attempting to use a FOI request to solicit an opinion from BW. The request was very clearly NOT and FOI request, and I took issue with somebody causing BW to waste money in that way.

 

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but several of the people who "leap to my defence" are usually on the opposite side of an argument to me.

 

Yes, I described the petition as semi-literate, and I stand by that description. I have no idea whether the petitioner is semi-literate or whether he simply failed to devote sufficient time to actually wording his petition. You may not like my description of the petition, but it is my view of it.

 

It is interesting that you keep coming back to how clever I am. Perhaps that is the crux of it. Do you have a chip on your shoulder about people who are educated? Do you resent them for it? Do you think they should all have mucked about in school, so that they would be unable to advance an argument that defeats yours?

 

Sorry to dissapoint, but I'm not that well educated. I have 8 O-Levels and 4 A-Levels, but I dropped out of University, and never seem to get round to doing another bit of my OU degree. I do have a capacity for accumulating useless information, and as a self-taught IT professional have managed to learn enough to get a job at a "University Degree or equivalent experience" level.

[Doorman]

Dear Great God,

 

I only managed three GCSE's but had enough nouse to realise that my talents were wasted in industry and left to become self-employed. My old colleagues who scoffed at the idea of me leaving my institutionised 'safe' employment to go it alone, are still there slaving away on shift work.

 

I, on the other hand, retired at the grand old age of 54 and live a very happy life on the cut, doing what I please. That's why I'm on here daily enjoying all of the banter, bitching and barking that takes place.

 

Just thought that I'd add my resume too!

Edited August 9, 2013 by Doorman

[bowten]

 

I suspect that you are utterly wrong on that last point, as I'm pretty certain that none of the moderating team think of me as a "great god". Clearly Google isn't that great a friend to you if you imagine that the moderators see me in that way.

 

I have to say that I am impressed that I mean so much to you that you appear to be amassing a dossier of my activities over the years, whilst I was unable (without the assistance of my friend Google) to recall who you are.

 

The fact that you still appear to be holding a grudge about a post that I made FOUR YEARS ago in response to a post of yours that contained so many negatives that it made it difficult to understand (http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=25186&page=2#entry421254) suggests that you are being rather obsessive about this.

 

I made loads of posts on urw (these are even longer ago, have you considered that your obsession may be an issue). I can hardly comment without knowing which you take issue with.

 

Yes, my name crops up on "What do they Know". https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/the_real_breach_of_the_law Somebody was attempting to use a FOI request to solicit an opinion from BW. The request was very clearly NOT and FOI request, and I took issue with somebody causing BW to waste money in that way.

 

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but several of the people who "leap to my defence" are usually on the opposite side of an argument to me.

 

Yes, I described the petition as semi-literate, and I stand by that description. I have no idea whether the petitioner is semi-literate or whether he simply failed to devote sufficient time to actually wording his petition. You may not like my description of the petition, but it is my view of it.

 

It is interesting that you keep coming back to how clever I am. Perhaps that is the crux of it. Do you have a chip on your shoulder about people who are educated? Do you resent them for it? Do you think they should all have mucked about in school, so that they would be unable to advance an argument that defeats yours?

 

Sorry to dissapoint, but I'm not that well educated. I have 8 O-Levels and 4 A-Levels, but I dropped out of University, and never seem to get round to doing another bit of my OU degree. I do have a capacity for accumulating useless information, and as a self-taught IT professional have managed to learn enough to get a job at a "University Degree or equivalent experience" level.

 

 

I suspect that you are utterly wrong on that last point, as I'm pretty certain that none of the moderating team think of me as a "great god". Clearly Google isn't that great a friend to you if you imagine that the moderators see me in that way.

 

I have to say that I am impressed that I mean so much to you that you appear to be amassing a dossier of my activities over the years, whilst I was unable (without the assistance of my friend Google) to recall who you are.

 

The fact that you still appear to be holding a grudge about a post that I made FOUR YEARS ago in response to a post of yours that contained so many negatives that it made it difficult to understand (http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=25186&page=2#entry421254) suggests that you are being rather obsessive about this.

 

I made loads of posts on urw (these are even longer ago, have you considered that your obsession may be an issue). I can hardly comment without knowing which you take issue with.

 

Yes, my name crops up on "What do they Know". https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/the_real_breach_of_the_law Somebody was attempting to use a FOI request to solicit an opinion from BW. The request was very clearly NOT and FOI request, and I took issue with somebody causing BW to waste money in that way.

 

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but several of the people who "leap to my defence" are usually on the opposite side of an argument to me.

 

Yes, I described the petition as semi-literate, and I stand by that description. I have no idea whether the petitioner is semi-literate or whether he simply failed to devote sufficient time to actually wording his petition. You may not like my description of the petition, but it is my view of it.

 

It is interesting that you keep coming back to how clever I am. Perhaps that is the crux of it. Do you have a chip on your shoulder about people who are educated? Do you resent them for it? Do you think they should all have mucked about in school, so that they would be unable to advance an argument that defeats yours?

 

Sorry to dissapoint, but I'm not that well educated. I have 8 O-Levels and 4 A-Levels, but I dropped out of University, and never seem to get round to doing another bit of my OU degree. I do have a capacity for accumulating useless information, and as a self-taught IT professional have managed to learn enough to get a job at a "University Degree or equivalent experience" level.

You have 8 O'Levels and four A levels,shame on you sir for dropping out of Uni.All that taxpayers money,you should be ashamed sir.

[luctor et emergo]

Fantastic, why quote an entire post only once, if you can quote it twice?

[Tuscan]

It's just the way of some people who can come accross as rude and direct, stick with it you learn not to rise to the bait .

[bassplayer]

We are new too forums and have met talked to some great people.

But some are amazingly rude and so far up your own retums

its hard to see how you can take a picture of your faces.

Especially mayliad or what ever your name is.

 

You are a pompose snob in a typical mid management job despite you over inflated ego and obviousley encombered with a poor manners tutor.

 

We hope that as you age manners is not a skill that you continue to ignore.There are training courses that you can attend to improve your manners and help develope your people skills.

 

The debate is to pull people together not to cause or stimulate aggresion.

 

To every one else on the forum please excuse my direct aproach to this agresive man.

Like the real world, you will get all types of personality on here. The only difference is that in the virtual world of the forum, some people think its a safer place to say what they think.

[Doorman]

To every one else on the forum please excuse my direct aproach to this agresive man.

Hello Woodjam,

 

I experienced this very same aggression when I first posted on here and maybe some of it was merited due to my frank and candid approach to certain views that I hold based upon real life experience, not imagination.

 

After a while you get to know the regular protagonists and proponents, some of whom genuinely enjoy the debate and will put their views forward without personal insult, some who can't resist but to lower the tone by involving in rude insolence. Surprisingly, if, or when you meet these very same folk face to face, they are not near as bad as they first appear on this forum and in most cases are good company.

 

I believe that the anonymity afforded by the protection of the computer keyboard, sometimes brings out the worst in us!

 

Mike

Edited August 13, 2013 by Doorman

[GUMPY]

Woodjam

That was an unwarranted personal attack on DM, he may be forthright but does not usually lower himself to personal attacks, suggest you take note of that fact. I can't say the same for some other posters.

[alan_fincher]

i can't understand why anybody should confuse the fact that this is an ill worded, ill thought out petition with any idea that suggesting that means you have any support for the eU on this matter.

 

I have no support for the EU on this matter, but still think it is a crap counter-productive petition, and certainly gives the impression that the person writing it doesn't understand the situation.

 

I regularly disagree with Dave, but his analysis of the situation is spot on here.

[Doorman]

i can't understand why anybody should confuse the fact that this is an ill worded, ill thought out petition with any idea that suggesting that means you have any support for the eU on this matter.

 

I have no support for the EU on this matter, but still think it is a crap counter-productive petition, and certainly gives the impression that the person writing it doesn't understand the situation.

 

I regularly disagree with Dave, but his analysis of the situation is spot on here.

There have been posts on this thread condoning the removal of red diesel for leisure boaters. Dave is correct about the ill-founded petition and possible harmful and counter-productiveness of its content, but agreeing to another form of taxation that allegedly will cost more to recover than what is gained is as daft as the ill-worded petition.

 

Posts 3 & 4 to be precise.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Doorman

[bassplayer]

i can't understand why anybody should confuse the fact that this is an ill worded, ill thought out petition with any idea that suggesting that means you have any support for the eU on this matter.

 

I have no support for the EU on this matter, but still think it is a crap counter-productive petition, and certainly gives the impression that the person writing it doesn't understand the situation.

 

I regularly disagree with Dave, but his analysis of the situation is spot on here.

There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism but some people seem to enjoy giving unconstructive critism. Did any critics here produce an alternative 'better worded' petition in the end? If so, where is it? I don't mind signing that to...

[billywhite]

I don't think anybody should be surprised in the least that the EU are moving in this direction. They've hit every other sector, why not the recreational boating sector? According to statistics on recreational boating, 12 million vessels are registered in the US...any idea what that figure is for the EU? I can imagine pollution levels from old boats in Eastern Europe are being viewed as unacceptable and moves to cleaner fuels/technology are being encouraged.

[Tuscan]

There have been posts on this thread condoning the removal of red diesel for leisure boaters. Dave is correct about the ill-founded petition and possible harmful and counter-productiveness of its content, but agreeing to another form of taxation that allegedly will cost more to recover than what is gained is as daft as the ill-worded petition.

So to wrongs make a right? I didn't sign the petition as it didn't make it clear but would sign if it was reworded. I suspect a few boaters will make little difference on the EU. On the basis that I doubt either boaters or marinas will rip out and replace fuel tanks to eradicate traces of the "red" deisel I can see future control of any change being difficult.

[Doorman]

So to wrongs make a right? I didn't sign the petition as it didn't make it clear but would sign if it was reworded. I suspect a few boaters will make little difference on the EU. On the basis that I doubt either boaters or marinas will rip out and replace fuel tanks to eradicate traces of the "red" deisel I can see future control of any change being difficult.

We used to moor alongside a high ranking police officer and his opinion was that it would be nigh on impossible to police or monitor the use or abuse of red diesel. Can you imagine spot checks along the canal for potential 'duty evasion'?

 

As I've stated previously, there are far bigger fishes to catch when it comes to tax evasion and the yields justify the actions, whereas...............

[mayalld]

We are new too forums and have met talked to some great people.

But some are amazingly rude and so far up your own retums

its hard to see how you can take a picture of your faces.

Especially mayliad or what ever your name is.

 

You are a pompose snob in a typical mid management job despite you over inflated ego and obviousley encombered with a poor manners tutor.

 

We hope that as you age manners is not a skill that you continue to ignore.There are training courses that you can attend to improve your manners and help develope your people skills.

 

The debate is to pull people together not to cause or stimulate aggresion.

 

To every one else on the forum please excuse my direct aproach to this agresive man.

 

I have refrained from personal attacks, because attacking other posters is against the rules here. Clearly you see nothing wrong with personal attacks. I'm more than happy to play by the rules, but if you want to play by different rules, more than happy to do that as well.

 

I have made a reasoned criticism of a petition that is so deficient that it cannot help but damage the cause that it seeks to aid. Does good manners demand that even when somethinfg is crap we have to say "oh yes, very good", simply because the person who did it may have meant well? In my view, that simply leads to people who aren't going to do any good carrying on making a balls of it.

 

Clearly the chip on your shoulder about people who are educated or are in a management position is an awful burden (actually, I'm not sure that I regard myself as management. We operate matrix management here, and whilst there are 4 people whose workload I partially manage, that is a minor part of my job, and I am not their line manager. I'm in the grade that I'm in because of my IT skills - education again).

 

Debate is to discuss things, to advance views both for and against. If you imagine that debate is simply to advance the case of the first post made, then I fear that you haven't grasped the concept of debate.

[Doorman]

I don't think anybody should be surprised in the least that the EU are moving in this direction.

Not so much surprised, but pissed off!

 

Their application of The European Court of Human Rights bill is an example of one of the most exploited and costly moves ever to be introduced here.

 

They implement the rules, we pay the price!

[Hawkmoth]

I don't think anybody should be surprised in the least that the EU are moving in this direction. They've hit every other sector, why not the recreational boating sector? According to statistics on recreational boating, 12 million vessels are registered in the US...any idea what that figure is for the EU? I can imagine pollution levels from old boats in Eastern Europe are being viewed as unacceptable and moves to cleaner fuels/technology are being encouraged.

Do you think that this tax is aimed at getting rid of old diesels?

Bob