MSW Inverter with Washing machine

[atsoft22]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have a Stirling Pro Combi Q 2500W modified sine wave inverter, which I can use successfully to power things like Dyson Vacuum, Microwave, Twin tub Washing machine. and various small things like Chargers, TV Etc.

 

I consider this unit to be at the Top end of the MSW market and it is a very electrically robust and well made unit.

 

I would like to upgrade from my twin tub to using a compact 3kg load washing machine like the Zanussi ZWC3000W or the Candy Aqua 100F, both of which have been mentioned in other topics.

 

My question is simple. Will this type of Washing machine work with a MSW invertor. I know a simple washing machine with a Mechanical timer will, but is the method of switching in an Electronics based machine compatible with an MSW inverter ?

 

Any help or other peoples experience's with this would be very helpful.

 

Regards

Andy Taylor

 

[Paringa]

Having had both machines...

 

I had problems with the Zanussi - which never worked and had to be sold - and bought the Candy which was fine. I heard (too late) that the Candy machine was less sensitive to waveforms some inverters and many generators put out. Mine was PSW and still was not happy.

 

Can i suggest finding a friend with the model of machine you are interested in and try to run it through your inverter before shelling out...

[atsoft22]

Thanks. That's really useful feedback...

 

Sadly, around this area (Gt. Ouse) there aren't many boats using automatic washing machines. Those that do have washing machines have older machines with Mechanical timers and Hot+cold Fill (That's another thing I am going to have to address... Providing a mix fill to avoid the Washing machine heater needing to be on for any length of time)

 

Regards

[matty40s]

I went 3 years cruising around not knowing whether i had a working washer or not before an enforced stay at sawley gave me free hookup.

The washer was fine with proper leccy, wouldn't fast spin or finish cycle with msw. Candy.

[MoominPapa]

(That's another thing I am going to have to address... Providing a mix fill to avoid the Washing machine heater needing to be on for any length of time)

May not be a problem. Modern detergents work fine at 30 degrees, and the amount of energy needed to heat a washing machine full of water to 30 degrees is very modest. Our WM cold fills, and it's not a problem, we always select a 30 degree wash.

 

MP.

[Pykebird]

If you can get one without a pcb, they seem to work on msw invertors. My friend had a brand new zanussi and failed to run it on her 2kw msw invertor and whilst I was away managed to blow it up on a friends 3 kw genny! So be careful, I could however run it for her off a cheap 3 kw Chinese psw, from an extension lead to her boat.

[atsoft22]

Hi

 

Yes I've been looking for a compact washing machine without electronics as I know its the electronics that the MSW upsets. The only compact one I found was this:-

 

http://improducts.co.uk/products/washing_machine/

 

This would definitely do the job, but was expensive (they want £650+ for it) and the Website, PDF and sales patter didn't match up spec. wise which bothered me. Also it has a 2.2KW heater which is a lot higher than the Candy. I know if I (carefully through a thermostatic mixer) hot fill from the calorifier then, in theory, the heater should never operate, but I need to be sure if it does, that my inverter will be able to cope as the 2.2KW is quite close to the 2.5KW rated output of My Stirling inverter.

 

Is it worth upgrading to a PSW Inverter? Does it make economic sense? At the time I bought it, money was tight and I went for the MSW version as a way of saving about £300. I wanted a good quality inverter as I already killed 2 Cheap chinese ones (both went bang without good reason), and to be fair the Stirling has proven to be rock solid reliable if a little power heavy when no load.

[by'eck]

Definitely worth having a PSW inverter to run a washing machine. Most are thyristor controlled and don't take kindly to the MSW waveform. This is a well documented issue.

[JanB]

We are about to purchase our first narrowboat - 2nd hand with 3Kw sine wave inverter. It does not have washing machine. Was thinking about installing one (or getting one installed). We plan to go touring mostly (6-8 weeks at a time a couple of times a year, plus the odd week/ fortnight). Questions:

a) is a washing machine essential (i am slightly loath to lose cupboard space ... but ... don't want to limit our tours by dirty washing bag)

is it ok with the inverter we have

c) can we buy normal domestic one (or should we buy special make suitable for narrowboats)

d) is it ok to install it ourselves (and by "ourselves" I mean by my husband ... reasonably good at DIY)

 

Thanks (in anticipation)

[WotEver]

a} is your choice, but I'd have thought you'd need to carry an awful lot of clothes to cover 8 weeks if you're not going to wash.

 

b} is covered elsewhere in this thread.

 

c} is covered elsewhere in this thread.

 

d} yeah - one electrical plug, one water feed, one waste outlet.

 

Tony

[atsoft22]

I actually think that my current solution to washing is adequate, if a bit labour intensive. I currently use a Small Royal twin tub, which has a mechanical timer for wash and spin. It works well off the MSW and doesn't take a lot of power either.

 

The only drawback is the emptying the clothes from the washer to the spin, then back again for the rinse, etc etc. Thats the main reason i want a fully auto machine. (Switch on and forget )

[Hawkmoth]

Hi

 

Yes I've been looking for a compact washing machine without electronics as I know its the electronics that the MSW upsets. The only compact one I found was this:-

 

http://improducts.co.uk/products/washing_machine/

 

This would definitely do the job, but was expensive (they want £650+ for it) and the Website, PDF and sales patter didn't match up spec. wise which bothered me. Also it has a 2.2KW heater which is a lot higher than the Candy. I know if I (carefully through a thermostatic mixer) hot fill from the calorifier then, in theory, the heater should never operate, but I need to be sure if it does, that my inverter will be able to cope as the 2.2KW is quite close to the 2.5KW rated output of My Stirling inverter.

 

Is it worth upgrading to a PSW Inverter? Does it make economic sense? At the time I bought it, money was tight and I went for the MSW version as a way of saving about £300. I wanted a good quality inverter as I already killed 2 Cheap chinese ones (both went bang without good reason), and to be fair the Stirling has proven to be rock solid reliable if a little power heavy when no load.

We live aboard and have a 2.5 Kw PSW and use it on a washer/dryer. The first thing I would say is that it's not a good idea to run the machine from battery power alone, have the engine running at least for the heat phase.

Next if you possibly can, don't spend a lot of extra money for a compact. Home size machines are good value if you can find the room.

Cold fill is fine, 30C washing doesn't take more than a few minutes to heat up, then if you have enough battery you could stop the engine.

As others have said on here many times. MSW seems to play hell with a lot a machines.

Bob

[JanB]

Well Tony - the reason I posted my questions is that a) I'm not up on this technical jargon (eg PSW and MSW - I'm guessing the SW bit is sine wave .. whatever that is .. but not clear what the "p" or "m" is; whate the difference is; or whether I have it) and Having read the whole thread with much trouble I couldn't absolutely glean what the answer was and c) hoped for some kind soul in the community to summarise/ be succinct for me. Call me thick/ not technical enough to be on a boat if you like (or just wanting a definite answer)! But never mind ... the last posting from Bob is more helpful. I'll just use aim to use a washing machine/tumble dryer when we're on the go and the engine is running and see where/if I can fit in a domestic model!!

[Keeping Up]

P stands for Pure, and M stands for Modified. Things work better on Pure sine waves. Another word for Modified would be "Approximate"

 

It is much more difficult and therefore much more expensive to make an inverter which makes pure sine waves. You can make a modified sine wave quite cheaply.

 

If the inverter is described as "Sine Wave" it is probably a Pure sine wave - but it may not be because some cheap manufacturers try to fool people by not specifying it

[atsoft22]

Unfortunately I don't have the space to install a Full size washing machine. I'm intending to use the 'L' part of kitchen cupboard and cut a hole through the bulkhead to have front of washing machine showing through into the bathroom. Because of everything else around that area I really don't think a full machine will fit.

 

Also, To replace my MSW with a good quality PSW invertor/Charger would be the best part of 1K, so it looks like it will have to be the expensive Mechanical Timer compact machine for me as it makes more economic sense.

[Guest]

I have the old Candy Aqua1000T which runs fine off a PSW 3KW inverter. It goes berserk if I try to run it off a frame genny. Never tried on a MSW to date.

[clbrof]

i have a cheapo Proaction washing machine from argos works fine from MSW Honda genny.

 

Also plumbed in hot water works to cold feed. Means I can run the 30 min wash with good results.

 

Looking into fitting a hot/cold mixer though as if the water is too hot the washing machine has decided to not run.....

[atsoft22]

Is there really such a thing as a MSW Generator ?

[Hawkmoth]

Is there really such a thing as a MSW Generator ?

I reckon that if it doesn't say "inverter" on it then it is MSW. that's probably why they more expensive.

We had a Kipor genny once, and the output from it was quite rough, certainly not true sine wave.

[atsoft22]

I think we need to coin a new Acronym. DSW (Dodgy Sine Wave) or RSW (Rubbish Sine Wave). Assuming that the Generator doesn't have any inverter type electronics then the output should be reasonably sinusoidal (unless on heavy load) but the frequency and Voltage may vary quite a bit depending on quality of windings and magnetics in the Alternator and how well the engine is governed. It's definitely not 'Modified'...well not intentionally anyway.

[Dave_P]

Well Tony - the reason I posted my questions is that a) I'm not up on this technical jargon (eg PSW and MSW - I'm guessing the SW bit is sine wave .. whatever that is .. but not clear what the "p" or "m" is; whate the difference is; or whether I have it) and Having read the whole thread with much trouble I couldn't absolutely glean what the answer was and c) hoped for some kind soul in the community to summarise/ be succinct for me. Call me thick/ not technical enough to be on a boat if you like (or just wanting a definite answer)! But never mind ... the last posting from Bob is more helpful. I'll just use aim to use a washing machine/tumble dryer when we're on the go and the engine is running and see where/if I can fit in a domestic model!!

 

A few pointers:

 

Modified Sine Wave is sometimes referred to as Quasi-sine wave. It means that that the electricity coming out of it doesn't form a nice smooth curvy wave which is best. Instead the electricity has some hard corners on its wave and some appliances (especially high tech modern stuff) doesn't like it. Sometimes an appliance will work but not quite as well. My microwave will work on MSW but produces hardly any power so a bowl of soup could take half an hour to heat. Sometimes televisions and radios can be a bit buzzy on MSW. I bought my 2000w MSW inverter for £110, whereas a similar power PSW inverter might cost over a £1000 (see here http://www.cleversolar.co.uk/shop/inverters/victron-inverter-chargers/victron-multiplus-inverter-charger-1049213.html) You pays your money and you takes your choice...

 

If you have a 3kw pure sine wave inverter, it should run most washing machines but running it will hit your battery bank quite hard so you're best to make sure your charge levels are good and keep the engine running while the washing machine is on.

 

Your choices as i see it are:

 

1] Find space and get a normal washing machine.

2] Find less space and get a mini-automatic washing machine, like the Zanussi or Candy.

3]Get one of those potable twin-tub type things, like this: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=portable+twin+tub&hl=en&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=YtffUYnZLcel0AWN24CwBQ&ved=0CCAQsxg

4] Hand wash in your sink/shower and get a mangle or spinner.

5] Go to the launderette.

 

All options have their pros and cons.

 

I recently went for a change from option 3] to the secret option 6] which is a fully automatic toploader which squeezes into a much narrower gap than a front loader but can still do a 6kg wash. I'm very pleased with it.

[atsoft22]

Update: For people also thinking of washing machines.

 

Got a kit of parts off Sterling to upgrade the MSW to PSW. Worked a treat.

 

Bought the Candy Aqua 100F. does what it says on the tin, no problems whatsoever.

 

Recently I have bought a new(er) boat with similar setup (Victron 3KW PSW invertor)and bought another washing machine. This time a high street model Candy Grand O comfort. 6Kg Machine but quite shallow. Also works a treat. Advantage to this boat is that its fitted with a Beta Marine with 2 alternators, the domestic one being 175Amps ! (almost keeps up with the current draw )

[Klim 1]

On the subject of heating water on washing machine......I agree with bob thats its not a good idea to heat water on battery alone due to the ammount of battery drain.I always heat cycle with engine running(unless hooked into mains ofcourse).A tip that considerably reduces the time to heat water is to set the machine off on a wash cycle and as it is filling with water add a kettle of near boiling water into the soap dispener draw, this is taken in with the fill and raises the start temp of water, thus the ammount of time taken-to reach the required temp.