Question about narrowboat handling/heavy steering on river?

[nailora]

Hello all,

 

I have a question about a narrowboat handling on a river. My DH and I were sizing up an attractive narrowboat today. It was really nearly perfect for our purposes. The problem with it is that it handled like a badly trained children's pony.

 

I know practically nothing about canal boats, being an American from New England who thinks that rivers should be "wider than a mile" and full of foamy white stuff and bears. DH was born on the K&A but has only handled a few narrowboats.

 

So. This boat seemed really nice, but before we got too interested in it, we asked if we could take it on the river. This was around the Henley-on-Thames area - on the non-tidal Thames - kind of by Slough. The owner drove the boat out and allowed DH to briefly handle it. I thought that handling an unfamiliar boat on an unfamiliar river with a judgemental owner looking on was above my skillset, so I hid below.

 

The problem was that DH, a slightly-built young professor-type, struggled to control the tiller while the boat was underway. The owner, a large, muscular, obviously fit military/athletic type, struggled to control the tiller. It would not stay straight - he was pinning it under control with his body and shoving it with strength. Rather than guiding it with a light hand on the tiller arm, they were shoving it under their armpits and wrestling with it. It seemed like the tiller arm chose a direction to go in, and they had to fight it to get it to go straight.

 

DH asked something like "Is this how she normally steers" and the owner kind of replied "why, is it hard for you, small academic man?" before telling us that his teenaged daughters handled it perfectly well. This made it pretty hard for DH to continue the conversation. (The owner seemed like a really nice guy, though. Just not too patient.)

 

This was a 60 foot boat, but DH has done some pretty good steering with 60ft boats on canals/the K&A before, so we thought that perhaps the river/wind/currents were mucking the boat around? It was definitely a bigger river than he has ever taken a narrowboat on, so we genuinely don't know what a proper river should "feel" like on the tiller of these boats. Obviously further training is in order, but was it the river or the boat?

 

Perhaps it really is a badly trained children's pony with terrible steering? A problem with rudder/tiller that Sargeant Owner is trying to hide from us by provoking DH to be manly and defensive?

 

If we were interested in this boat, we would like to try to handle it somewhere else, like on a canal, and see if it still handles like a stubborn goat. Is this a good idea, and is there a good way to propose this?

 

Yes, we are newbies and these are silly questions, but now DH is too annoyed by the "teenage daughters" comment to think clearly about it - and we really liked the blooming boat!

 

Help?!?!

 

[Laurence Hogg]

Hello all,

 

I have a question about a narrowboat handling on a river. My DH and I were sizing up an attractive narrowboat today. It was really nearly perfect for our purposes. The problem with it is that it handled like a badly trained children's pony.

 

I know practically nothing about canal boats, being an American from New England who thinks that rivers should be "wider than a mile" and full of foamy white stuff and bears. DH was born on the K&A but has only handled a few narrowboats.

 

So. This boat seemed really nice, but before we got too interested in it, we asked if we could take it on the river. This was around the Henley-on-Thames area - on the non-tidal Thames - kind of by Slough. The owner drove the boat out and allowed DH to briefly handle it. I thought that handling an unfamiliar boat on an unfamiliar river with a judgemental owner looking on was above my skillset, so I hid below.

 

The problem was that DH, a slightly-built young professor-type, struggled to control the tiller while the boat was underway. The owner, a large, muscular, obviously fit military/athletic type, struggled to control the tiller. It would not stay straight - he was pinning it under control with his body and shoving it with strength. Rather than guiding it with a light hand on the tiller arm, they were shoving it under their armpits and wrestling with it. It seemed like the tiller arm chose a direction to go in, and they had to fight it to get it to go straight.

 

DH asked something like "Is this how she normally steers" and the owner kind of replied "why, is it hard for you, small academic man?" before telling us that his teenaged daughters handled it perfectly well. This made it pretty hard for DH to continue the conversation. (The owner seemed like a really nice guy, though. Just not too patient.)

 

This was a 60 foot boat, but DH has done some pretty good steering with 60ft boats on canals/the K&A before, so we thought that perhaps the river/wind/currents were mucking the boat around? It was definitely a bigger river than he has ever taken a narrowboat on, so we genuinely don't know what a proper river should "feel" like on the tiller of these boats. Obviously further training is in order, but was it the river or the boat?

 

Perhaps it really is a badly trained children's pony with terrible steering? A problem with rudder/tiller that Sargeant Owner is trying to hide from us by provoking DH to be manly and defensive?

 

If we were interested in this boat, we would like to try to handle it somewhere else, like on a canal, and see if it still handles like a stubborn goat. Is this a good idea, and is there a good way to propose this?

 

Yes, we are newbies and these are silly questions, but now DH is too annoyed by the "teenage daughters" comment to think clearly about it - and we really liked the blooming boat!

 

Help?!?!

 

If you are new to narrow boats and think it steers like crap then avoid it. Its probably down to the length of the swim and rudder blade ratio to the size of prop, the rudder may even be badly positioned. Go for a quality builder who has been around a long time and you wont go far wrong.

[nailora]

Go for a quality builder who has been around a long time and you wont go far wrong.

True facts I'm sure - it's a Les Allen?

[matty40s]

sorry, walk away, let the idiot sell his poorly built or maintained NB to someone else.

 

I move many boats and fight a few, enjoy many, and am occasionally treated to a smooth operator -set up exactly right.

 

River or canal is not relevant, if the rudder is too long/short, prop pitch wrong or too large , or the tiller arm is not long enough....all lead to challenging steering conditions.

[alan_fincher]

If we were interested in this boat, we would like to try to handle it somewhere else, like on a canal, and see if it still handles like a stubborn goat. Is this a good idea, and is there a good way to propose this?

If this boat really is no better than a pig on roller skates on the wide and deep Thames, trust me, it will be absolutely no better on a narrow silted canal.

 

Something isn't right, by the sound of it, and you should seek out something you think handles better.

 

(But if, when you have tried half a dozen, they all seem equally bad, then you may need to conced the problem is you! )

 

it's a Les Allen?

Well that is a surprise.

 

Usually just aboutas well regarded as anything.

 

Has someone been modifying it since Allen built it?

[nailora]

Has someone been modifying it since Allen built it?

Well, at the risk of annoying the poor owner who might read this one day... yes! He stretched it. In for a penny, in for a pound: this is it

 

http://www.abnb.co.uk/boat_pages/2341web/2341abnb.php?BoatID=2341

 

edited to clarify: it was stretched 6 ft by Dave Thomas

 

DH is pretty good at the steering bit - the other boat we looked at today went like a dream, and that owner just wandered off for a cup of tea and left us to toddle around and park it. The thing is that we're so new and insecure that if a Sargeant Owner is like "EVEN MY TEENAGE DAUGHTERS CAN HANDLE MY LES ALLEN BOAT" then we're going to half-believe him.... but we are also a bit cynical so we half-don't!

 

Thanks for the info, kind of confirming initial reactions...

Edited June 1, 2013 by nailora

[MtB]

The problem was that DH, a slightly-built young professor-type, struggled to control the tiller while the boat was underway. The owner, a large, muscular, obviously fit military/athletic type, struggled to control the tiller. It would not stay straight - he was pinning it under control with his body and shoving it with strength. Rather than guiding it with a light hand on the tiller arm, they were shoving it under their armpits and wrestling with it. It seemed like the tiller arm chose a direction to go in, and they had to fight it to get it to go straight.

 

Can you expand on this please? What would have happened had he let go of the tiller? I suspect it would have slammed fully over to one side unless restrained, which is what you mean by 'struggled to control it'.

 

I had exactly this with my boat when i first got it. Tiller would slam over to one side if I let go of it, very disconcerting ans uncomfortable to steer.

 

The good news is I fixed it by removing 2" from the leading edge of the rudder and weldng it onto the trailing edge. If you search back you'll find I've discussed this in detail before including posting photos of the rudder before and after.

 

I think all that is needed to sort this boat out is to chop a bit off the leading edge of the rudder, the same as I did!

 

MtB

 

P.S. And another thought. All this stuff about his teenage daughters being able to manage it is waffle. He knows there is a problem with it and this is his rationalisation of how it isn't really a problem, even though it is.

 

A boat should steer in a roughly straight line if you let go of the tiller by the way, river or not.

[matty40s]

I also had this on a boat I moved recently, the tiller would swing either way as fast as possible even on tickover.

To negotiate locks, I ended up sticking a mooring pin in the tiller arm and fastening the centreline through the pin hole so the tiller stayed straight.

I ended up doing this through Avon,Stratford locks,Lapworth, Hatton, Gu, Braunston and Buckby, putting the tiller handle back in when delivering the boat.

[MtB]

Anorther point too.

 

When you buy a boat, you are also 'buying' the previous owner, his attitudes, his maintenance record etc etc. this seller soiunds a bit of an arse frankly and you don;t seem to like him very much. for these reasons it is probably best to pass on this boat as you'll always have a tainted memory of the purchase otherwise.

 

Not sure I explained that very well....

 

 

MtB

[luctor et emergo]

Something else that's not been mentioned yet, perhaps the rudder is not mounted properly? It may have been dislodged from the skeg, or the bottom cup or top mount (bearing) may be badly worn out.

 

Anorther point too.

 

When you buy a boat, you are also 'buying' the previous owner, his attitudes, his maintenance record etc etc. this seller soiunds a bit of an arse frankly and you don;t seem to like him very much. for these reasons it is probably best to pass on this boat as you'll always have a tainted memory of the purchase otherwise.

 

Not sure I explained that very well....

 

 

MtB

I appreciate what you mean, but I would rather buy a good boat from a burk, than a bad boat from a nice person.

[Tam & Di]

Hello all,

 

I have a question about a narrowboat handling on a river. My DH and I were sizing up an attractive narrowboat today. It was really nearly perfect for our purposes. The problem with it is that it handled like a badly trained children's pony.

 

If anything I'd expect it to steer better on a river with plenty of water under it than on a shalow canal. One thing though is that the engine can be driven harder, BECAUSE of the deeper water, and that may be showing the boat's engineering problems up and making them more obvious. Having said that, I would expect the steering to be heavier if the engine was wound hard on, though it should still be easy enough to hold a straight line.

 

It does sound as if there is a problem with the rudder blade or bearings/prop size or other propulsion related bits (even the 6' of new bit could play a part as it changes the relationship between the length and power), but would not absolutely rule out your other half's inexperience playing a part too. But if you want to cruise your boat on rivers I can't see a lot of point in pursuing this particular craft.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Tam & Di

[NB Alnwick]

If everything else on the boat ticks all your boxes - seek a reduction in the price to allow for the fact that the steering gear needs attention. When the boat comes out of the water for blacking, a good boat builder will be able to fix the steering issues quite easily.

[blackrose]

I wouldn't buy someone else's problems. Whenever I've talked to builders and people who work with sterngear, it's often not a straight-forward solution and more of a black art. They might get it right first time, or you might have to lift the boat out several times until they get it right.

 

There are thousands of boats being sold and it's a buyer's market. If you think that boat has a problem with the steering or the handling just doesn't suit you then buy something else. I'm sure you can easily find an equally nice boat that steers properly.

Edited June 2, 2013 by blackrose

[BruceinSanity]

I wouldn't buy someone else's problems. Whenever I've talked to builders and people who work with sterngear, it's often not a straight-forward solution and more of a black art. They might get it right first time, or you might have to lift the boat out several times until they get it right.

 

There are thousands of boats being sold and it's a buyer's market. If you think that boat has a problem with the steering or the handling just doesn't suit you then buy something else. I'm sure you can easily find an equally nice boat that steers properly.

I'm with you all the way there. Unless this is an absolutely must have boat, back away, not least because if the seller is that defensive about an obvious major problem (even if it can probably be fixed quite easily) what's he going to be like when your surveyor finds a knackered drive plate or a rusted gas locker base?

 

The brokers are discounting like mad at the moment, there's never been a better time to buy a second hand boat.

[RLWP]

From the photographs, I think this may be a ballasting problem - throw the Rosie and Jim dolls overboard immediately

 

Richard

[nailora]

Thank you so much, everyone - you guys are amazing! Especially the Boilerman, who nailed it:

 

 

Can you expand on this please? What would have happened had he let go of the tiller? I suspect it would have slammed fully over to one side unless restrained, which is what you mean by 'struggled to control it'.

 

That was exactly it. Sargeant Owner implied it was DH's physical weakness/inexperience, but when he handled the boat and the tilelr continued to slam over to the side, it was suddenly... the fault of the river?! We were suspicious, but aware of our own complete ignorance...

 

You guys, though! You guys are great! Thank you.