Is this normal or did we encounter a complete twunt?

[carlt]

I disagree, I think the majority of boaters do take it seriously.

Seriously enough to "vilify and despise" but not seriously enough to stop, think and realise that it is those who shut the gates who are making work for themselves and others and those who leave them open who are making a net saving of labour.

 

If someone really has the energy to feel such strong emotions against a fellow human being surely they have the energy to think the conundrum through before directing their fury.

 

On a seperate note, I have your old potting bench (I think it was yours?) salvaged when Lucy was moved.

The bench that I sat on to smoke pot is here in my garden though it hasn't been used for that purpose for many a year.

 

Any other type of "potting" is the OH's area of expertise (she is a ceramic artist) so I will ask her but, as she hasn't missed it for 6 years I suspect she won't be wanting it back.

[Jerra]

The situation of the guide is to me a bit like much of the highway code - guidance but most sensible people wouldn't ignore what it says. Why should a guide for canals be any different apart from the fact the consequences of not following the guidance may be less.

 

Before anyone brings the law into the argument yes parts of the highway code are law but much (most?) is only guidance.

 

I was also under the impression that as a general principle where guidance was provided you were on the firmest ground if there were any problems if you had followed it to the letter.

 

I just can not understand why in the boating world (or at least this forum) so many seem to feel the whole system has to operate in a way they prefer rather than the way the organisation who have the repsonsibility for the canals prefer.

[carlt]

The situation of the guide is to me a bit like much of the highway code - guidance but most sensible people wouldn't ignore what it says.

Most sensible people would question whether the guidance is misguided or not before blindly following it.

 

I have never read the Handbook and have no intention of ever reading it as it is not obligatory and the few snippets I have read, largely as a result of its errors highlighted on this forum, have convinced me that it it will not benefit me one bit.

 

I was obliged to read the highway code in order to pass my motorbike test although I didn't bother, 10 years later, when I took the car test.

 

I suspect that if a mandatory boat test is introduced my 30 years of experience and RYA certificates will allow me to muddle through without having to read the Handbook.

[Terence]

Seriously enough to "vilify and despise" but not seriously enough to stop, think and realise that it is those who shut the gates who are making work for themselves and others and those who leave them open who are making a net saving of labour.

 

If someone really has the energy to feel such strong emotions against a fellow human being surely they have the energy to think the conundrum through before directing their fury.

 

The bench that I sat on to smoke pot is here in my garden though it hasn't been used for that purpose for many a year.

 

Any other type of "potting" is the OH's area of expertise (she is a ceramic artist) so I will ask her but, as she hasn't missed it for 6 years I suspect she won't be wanting it back.

 

The "vilify and despise" isn't the issue really. The issue is BW (CaRT) felt it necessary to ask folk to close gates, necessary enough to put it in writing in the hope that people would. (They have there reasons for asking this practice as Sarina Young would happily explain CaRT Customer service). If the guides and signs weren't there to help then there would be more problems on the canals. I needed them when I very first went up Grindley Brook locks.

[Maffi]

The OPs Twunt sounds like the guy who came through Thrupp Last year, on his 70 foot anatomy extension. In mooring to open the bridge he actually stepped over a bollard (one of three) to tie his rope across a very busy towpath at hip level for adults, neck level for kids and then got all pissed off and arrogant when I pointed out the danger. He was not a newbie but I feel sure he was not a human either. He had the worst manners of anyone I have met on the water and totally ignored me when I offered to do the bridge for him. A bridge that has been especially moddified to aid the single hander.

 

A couple of points:- Why do people have to continually buck against what has become the 'norm' (for what ever reason that may have happened)?

 

Secondly, why do boaters always say, "it helps single handers?" On common place things such as locks I am quite capable of opening and closing the gates myself, having completed this task a couple of thousand times I am offended that other boaters look upon me as a 'needy case'. If you should meet me on a flight of locks the chances are that will be the last time you see me. I always find that helpful people are somewhat of a hinderance. Generally when people help me something goes wrong.

 

If you should ever see me NEVER ever touch a rope I am handling unless I ask. A smack on the nose usually hurts. It's not that I am a miserable git, but every time someone 'helps' while I have a rope in my hand I usually end up on the ground due to their inability to to pull the rope in the same direction as me. It gets very irksome!

 

I dont really care about lock gates as long as every one does the same thing. I always leave them shut unless they swing open after I have closed them. The vast majority of people close the gates when they leave a lock. If you are in the minority that leave them open, SCREW YOU!

 

And relax!!!

Edited May 10, 2013 by Maffi

[jelunga]

I suspect overall you're right, logically as you say both gates closed any leak is reduced to the gate that leaks the least, but many variables like debris pressures etc etc. My brother was a single handler, it made boating much easier if he approached an open lock and didn't hold people up like he would having to moor.

 

Personally I'll still leave gates open when no boats aroound, I really think water wastage is minimal. If you think that if all lock gates were closed the amount of engine running time used burning fuel whilst you moor of hover waiting for the gates to be opened churning up the canal etc etc, at the end of the day it's a waste of energy, closing a lock means it has to be opened again to be used and that's inconvenient and wasteful in many ways. Having read the other thread I would say more think it convenient than inconsiderate and it's definitely more logical IMO

Your theory always assumes the next boat is going the same way as you.

I can assure you that if I approach a lock going up and some wazzork has left the top gate open, then it is a pain in the arse having to close the top gate before I can empty the lock to enter. And vice versa. So why not just do what CRT request and leave all gates and sluices closed when you leave except where notices ask otherwise. Then from which ever way the next boat approaches a lock there is knowledge that they will have to open a gate and leakage will be reduced SIGNIFICANTLY

 

The OPs Twunt sounds like the guy who came through Thrupp Last year, on his 70 foot anatomy extension. In mooring to open the bridge he actually stepped over a bollard (one of three) to tie his rope across a very busy towpath at hip level for adults, neck level for kids and then got all pissed off and arrogant when I pointed out the danger. He was not a newbie but I feel sure he was not a human either. He had the worst manners of anyone I have met on the water and totally ignored me when I offered to do the bridge for him. A bridge that has been especially moddified to aid the single hander.

 

A couple of points:- Why do people have to continually buck against what has become the 'norm' (for what ever reason that may have happened)?

 

Secondly, why do boaters always say, "it helps single handers?" On common place things such as locks I am quite capable of opening and closing the gates myself, having completed this task a couple of thousand times I am offended that other boaters look upon me as a 'needy case'. If you should meet me on a flight of locks the chances are that will be the last time you see me. I always find that helpful people are somewhat of a hinderance. Generally when people help me something goes wrong.

 

If you should ever see me NEVER ever touch a rope I am handling unless I ask. A smack on the nose usually hurts. It's not that I am a miserable git, but every time someone 'helps' while I have a rope in my hand I usually end up on the ground due to their inability to to pull the rope in the same direction as me. It gets very irksome!

 

I dont really care about lock gates as long as every one does the same thing. I always leave them shut unless they swing open after I have closed them. The vast majority of people close the gates when they leave a lock. If you are in the minority that leave them open, SCREW YOU!

What he said

[luctor et emergo]

The amount of water wasted by an open gate pales into insignificance when compared to the water loss caused by shiney Hudson owners, refusing to share wide locks

 

 

 

 

80)

[Maffi]

The amount of water wasted by an open gate pales into insignificance when compared to the water loss caused by shiney Hudson owners, refusing to share wide locks

 

 

 

 

80)

That is only ignorance of the shiney boat owner. They have no idea what rubbing strakes are for. You can always tell when the upper strakes are painted gloss.

[Ex- Member]

Your theory always assumes the next boat is going the same way as you.

 

No it doesn't. opening a lock gate against the current is harder than closing, it's easy for you to close lock gates as the current helps you.

I can assure you that if I approach a lock going up and some wazzork has left the top gate open, then it is a pain in the arse having to close the top gate before I can empty the lock to enter.

Not as much as a pain in the ass as the boater coming the other way though, especially if single handed, it is in fact a great help and the boater won't be mooring up, leaving an engine running whilst they open the lock or leaving their boat unattended. Also closing a lock gate with the current is easier than opening one against.

And vice versa. So why not just do what CRT request and leave all gates and sluices closed when you leave except where notices ask otherwise.

Because it's clearly an inefficient way of operating a lock and causes excess wear & tare to lock gates and lock moorings.

Then from which ever way the next boat approaches a lock there is knowledge that they will have to open a gate and leakage will be reduced SIGNIFICANTLY

 

What great leakage????? , there really isn't any of significance especially when compared to the additional wear & tear caused by closing them and then let alone the inconvenience is causes to other boaters. Wear locks out through excessive unwarranted use and they'll leak more water in the long run.

[Dave_P]

Your theory always assumes the next boat is going the same way as you.

 

No it doesn't. opening a lock gate against the current is harder than closing, it's easy for you to close lock gates as the current helps you.

 

 

 

Not as much as a pain in the ass as the boater coming the other way though, especially if single handed, it is in fact a great help and the boater won't be mooring up, leaving an engine running whilst they open the lock or leaving their boat unattended. Also closing a lock gate with the current is easier than opening one against.

 

 

 

Because it's clearly an inefficient way of operating a lock and causes excess wear & tare to lock gates and lock moorings.

 

What great leakage????? , there really isn't any of significance especially when compared to the additional wear & tear caused by closing them and then let alone the inconvenience is causes to other boaters. Wear locks out through excessive unwarranted use and they'll leak more water in the long run.

I pretty much agree with you on everything you say. But when there's a rule you disagree with, the best way to deal with it is to lobby for the rule to be changed, either with the 'authority' or by building a consensus of boaters. Simply ignoring rules which you happen to disagree with is anti-social and seems pretty selfish to me.

[carlt]

The "vilify and despise" isn't the issue really. The issue is BW (CaRT) felt it necessary to ask folk to close gates, necessary enough to put it in writing in the hope that people would. (They have there reasons for asking this practice as Sarina Young would happily explain CaRT Customer service). If the guides and signs weren't there to help then there would be more problems on the canals. I needed them when I very first went up Grindley Brook locks.

It is the issue for me as the "guide" is wrong and for it to generate that amount of anger is far more serious a matter because it is wrong than if it was correct.

 

I have no idea who Sarina Young is but I suspect she is less qualified to offer a definitive answer than I am (though I admit to never having worked in a "Customer Service" role.

 

Grindley Brook is, of course, one of the few exceptions which do require separate instructions on how they are used and how they are left.

[Ex- Member]

I pretty much agree with you on everything you say. But when there's a rule you disagree with, the best way to deal with it is to lobby for the rule to be changed, either with the 'authority' or by building a consensus of boaters. Simply ignoring rules which you happen to disagree with is anti-social and seems pretty selfish to me.

 

Hi Dave

 

It's not a rule apparently, just guidance although I couldn't find it in the ridiculously long boaters handbook

[Paul C]

It is the issue for me as the "guide" is wrong and for it to generate that amount of anger is far more serious a matter because it is wrong than if it was correct.

 

I have no idea who Sarina Young is but I suspect she is less qualified to offer a definitive answer than I am (though I admit to never having worked in a "Customer Service" role.

 

Grindley Brook is, of course, one of the few exceptions which do require separate instructions on how they are used and how they are left.

 

carlt what do you recommend as a useful resource for information to novice boaters, on using the inland waterways? eg the first time hirer who may be keen to find out about boat handling etc?

[carlt]

But when there's a rule you disagree with

There isn't a rule to disagree with.

[Paul C]

Hi Dave

 

It's not a rule apparently, just guidance although I couldn't find it in the ridiculously long boaters handbook

 

As previously stated on the initial post, the relevant part is on page 13. Its in the middle of the page.

 

If its ridiculously long, which bits would you edit out?

[carlt]

carlt what do you recommend as a useful resource for information to novice boaters, on using the inland waterways? eg the first time hirer who may be keen to find out about boat handling etc?

I wouldn't recommend one as I have never read one.

 

The absence of an alternative to suggest does not make the contents of the "Handbook" correct though.

[Jerra]

Hi Dave

 

It's not a rule apparently, just guidance although I couldn't find it in the ridiculously long boaters handbook

A simple ctrl + F search of the pdf page shows it to be mentioned twice p13 para 5 second line and P14 last para last 2 lines less than 30 secs to find.

[carlt]

As previously stated on the initial post, the relevant part is on page 13.....

of a guide book, not a rule book.

 

There is no rule so there is no selfish disobeying of any rule either.

[Jerra]

of a guide book, not a rule book.

 

There is no rule so there is no selfish disobeying of any rule either.

Perhaps selfish disobeying of a request would have been a better way to put it.

[Ex- Member]

A simple ctrl + F search of the pdf page shows it to be mentioned twice p13 para 5 second line and P14 last para last 2 lines less than 30 secs to find.

 

I'll try that, didn't realise you could search.

[Terence]

Hope this helps, 6th Parragraph down.

Hi Dave

 

It's not a rule apparently, just guidance although I couldn't find it in the ridiculously long boaters handbook

[carlt]

Perhaps selfish disobeying of a request would have been a better way to put it.

So if I ask you to leave gates open because that is the most sensible way to leave a lock would you be selfish if you exercise your right to disagree and continue closing them?

[Terence]

So if I ask you to leave gates open because that is the most sensible way to leave a lock would you be selfish if you exercise your right to disagree and continue closing them?

 

If you were behind me I would not be so selfish as to close the lock gate as I leave.

[Ex- Member]

A simple ctrl + F search of the pdf page shows it to be mentioned twice p13 para 5 second line and P14 last para last 2 lines less than 30 secs to find.

 

 

Found cheers

 

More written with regard to etiquette IMO There's clearly no reasoning for doing so or and no specific point made about doing so. On a busy canal like the K&A even if there's no boat visible ahead, you can bet your bottom dollar, you shut the gates and one appears within minutes. Nothing thus far convinces me shutting gates is in any way logical and the thought of being hated and despised worries me not

[Dave_P]

Ok, I'll retract the words 'rule' and 'rules' from my previous post and replace them with 'consensus' and 'consensuses'(sic?). Clearly this forum shows that there isn't a 100% consensus on this issue but the large majority close gates behind them. That should be reason enough to do the same and to campaign for a change in guidance and to build an alternative consensus. Rather than just flout it. I'd be more than happy to sign a petition to CaRT to change the guidance to leaving gates open.