Enforcement Options

[cotswoldsman]

I haven't acknowledged that there are less overstayers, I just quoted your suggestion of this. I think this issue is regional anyway. I don't challenge what you say about your part of the world because you are there and I am not. I can say it has not diminished on the Lancaster, and I would be fairly sure if it was just ignored it would increase.

 

What are the problems on The Lancaster?

[carlt]

 

Proper enforcement may mean they are being held more to a boating pattern that CRT think they should adopt, but I think we are on very sticky ground trying to claim they are taking up permanent moorings in large numbers.

In my experience most of the overstayers I know have now taken up permanent moorings or moved ashore.

 

Walking the same canals regularly I have not seen any fresh, possible overstayers, moving in.

 

You yourself have stated that you do not see there being as big a problem as is claimed by some in your local area and many folk have made the same observation.

[Tuscan]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit chaps.....

 

I can't immediately find the numbers, but I know we have been here before.

 

Actually the total number of issued licences is declared in the BW annual reports as pretty static, (that much I see).

 

But I know the one "growth area" is that of those not declaring a home mooring! (If you recall John, that was one reason Sally claimed they were important - the only area where licence revenue is rising! ).

 

So for those who see the "CC-er" numbers as a problem, I think we have to stop pretending the actual total could possibly be on the decline on the decline - I feel quite sure it isn't.

 

Proper enforcement may mean they are being held more to a boating pattern that CRT think they should adopt, but I think we are on very sticky ground trying to claim they are taking up permanent moorings in large numbers.

 

Certainly down here, I know many people have quit marinas due to rising costs, and are now without a declared home mooring. I suspect as many are giving up moorings as are taking them, but I can't prove that, I'll admit.

 

 

I would agree with this view point, if Carlt is right and he may well be this must be compensated by either new boats or boaters coming out of the marina as I had understood that the number of CC licences has not been going down. However I do agree that increased activity by CRT has meant more boat movement and perhaps more general towpath than VM mooring

[rgreg]

What are the problems on The Lancaster?

Like on other parts of the system, there are a few boats that never move, and others that move very little and spend most of their time on the most popular VMs. Not epidemic levels by any means and certainly small in comparison to some other areas of the country, but if left for a "free for all" it will surely only get worse.

[alan_fincher]

In my experience most of the overstayers I know have now taken up permanent moorings or moved ashore.

 

Walking the same canals regularly I have not seen any fresh, possible overstayers, moving in.

 

You yourself have stated that you do not see there being as big a problem as is claimed by some in your local area and many folk have made the same observation.

All quite possibly true,

 

But I do accept based on published numbers, (which I'll try and find), that overall the number is on the increase, (not of over-stayers! - I mean all making a declaration).

 

Clearly this is a "category" of boater that causes more disagreement than any other, with hard fought opinions right across the board, so where we have "facts" that seem fairly reliable, I would prefer to stick with them. Yes in some areas they are less evident, but in others what have been leisure boats are being widely sold as live-aboards, and new shells are being regularly craned in for fitting out canal-side. We should not pretend that's not the case, when trying to have balanced debate.

 

I'm confident that CRT claim that the one area where licence counts are on a significant increase is in those making the "no home mooring declaration", and based on my own observations, it "feels" right. I'll see if I can find a source, when I've performed a few household tasks, (unless Allan Richards jumps in with it first!).

[carlt]

...but if left for a "free for all" it will surely only get worse.

How do you reach this conclusion?

 

There is no evidence that it has got any worse so why assume it is not something that is stable.

 

There will always be a percentage of the population that don't follow the rules as closely as others would like them to but this percentage doesn't fluctuate that much.

 

There will always be a few boats that don't move that often but I don't see how that threatens your lifestyle.

[alan_fincher]

The only quick thing I have managed to find is.....

 

In 2007, we had approximately 3,200 boats licensed as continuous cruisers. In July 2012 the figure was 4,400, an increase of 37%.

 

Obviously that is a big increase, but looking over 5 years - later I'll see if I can find numbers for any of those intervening years.

[carlt]

I'm confident that CRT claim that the one area where licence counts are on a significant increase is in those making the "no home mooring declaration", and based on my own observations, it "feels" right. I'll see if I can find a source, when I've performed a few household tasks, (unless Allan Richards jumps in with it first!).

As there is a hot discussion about the complete absence of complaints about overstaying in an area where CRT feel a need to clamp down I don't see why an increase in "no home mooring" declarations should provoke the seething resentment displayed by some fellow boaters.

 

Obviously that is a big increase, but looking over 5 years - later I'll see if I can find numbers for any of those intervening years.

Why are we assuming that these are not genuine ccers.

 

They obviously met the criteria that "satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances"or they wouldn't have issued a licence.

 

Why can't we have the same respect for our fellow boaters?

[alan_fincher]

I'm not actually arguing with you Carl.

 

Nor do I want to reopen the debate about what is a genuine CC-er or not.

 

Clearly CRT claim their own monitoring of boat movements indicate that at least half of these don't move over any great geographical distance. That claim sounds entirely reasonable to me, whether or not the distances they do move would be judged to be "bona fide for navigation" or not.

 

To people who get worked up about the numbers of boats moored on-line, I guess it matters not a lot whether these boats are doing a highly compliant 1000 miles or more a year, or an arguably non-compliant 5 miles a year. They are still there somewhere, moored up most of the time. Other boaters need to boat past them, and compete with them (sometimes) for the more popular moorings.

 

I have no axe to grind - I'm simply trying to give a rational explanation why if some other people see it as a "problem", they may also see it as an "increasing problem".

 

Right now down here a lot of the visitor moorings often filled by live-aboard boats are relatively empty. It is possible that some have taken up moorings, but given the dearth of reasonably priced CRT moorings, and a growing number of spaces in our few highly priced marinas, I very much doubt it, in any significant numbers. Most haven't disapperaed - they are just somewhere else!

[rgreg]

How do you reach this conclusion?

 

There is no evidence that it has got any worse so why assume it is not something that is stable.

 

There will always be a percentage of the population that don't follow the rules as closely as others would like them to but this percentage doesn't fluctuate that much.

 

There will always be a few boats that don't move that often but I don't see how that threatens your lifestyle.

Overstaying has certainly increased up here over the years. As I said before, not epidemic levels but an increasing number.

[carlt]

Overstaying has certainly increased up here over the years. As I said before, not epidemic levels but an increasing number.

...and, even if that is true, you still don't explain how this is damaging your lifestyle.

[KenK]

As an individual boater of many years, 40 +, I can honestly say that NCCC’s do not affect me in the slightest. Neither am I affected by full visitor moorings, I am capable of walking a few hundred yards.

I used the waterways long before visitor mooring were common, when facilities were few and the dredging was so poor that reaching the bank always seemed to require a plank. Last year we moved to the T&M but for the seven years before that we moored on the K&A. I have boated down to Bristol and not had any difficulty mooring, boated down the GU, through London again without problems.

OK that’s me but I have loads of experience and I can take my time, indeed I prefer to moor well away from other boats.

 

Hire boaters and those new to the waterways want and expect an easy passage. Hire boaters in particular have paid a lot of money for a week or mores holiday, it is not unreasonable that they expect to enjoy it. They are not used to leaping into the reeds in the hope that you’ll land on the bank and not in water, so they expect to use visitor moorings and pull up outside pubs, after all that is how it was described in the adverts. At the end of the holiday the hire company asks how it went, they hope to hear it was wonderful we’ll definitely do it again. They do not want to hear the opposite, we couldn’t find anywhere to moor, all the visitor mooring are full, we couldn’t get to a pub, go shopping etc., we’ll not do that again.

 

So who is to blame, well in reality no one, new hire boaters tend to go on too long and so by the time they reach their destination most people have moored up for the night. Lots of boaters set off early and finish early ensuring they can moor where they wish, many a morning I’m still in bed listening to passing boats and seeing those same boats moored up as I pass them in the early afternoon.

 

So it is no ones fault, in some places there are too many boats chasing too few moorings. There is of course always a need to blame someone and the only easy target is, you’ve guessed it, the NCCC’er. No matter how you look at it, no matter how you choose to interpret the CC requirements if you do not move every fourteen days in a way which satisfies C&RT you are a target.

 

There is no easy answer, it should be simple, C&RT exercise the powers they have and prevent it happening. Prevent what, hire boaters will still have problems mooring even if all the NCCC boats were removed from the waterways. C&RT will then of course be able to turn to the complaining hire company and say what else can we do?

 

C&RT are not going to section 8 all those boats, the situation has gone on and was ignored by BW for far to long for that to happen. They have proposed a strategy in London and on the Western K&A but I see today that the London Boaters do not seem keen on the ideas and neither do some on the K&A.

 

Is there a solution, more moorings and less boats is the obvious one.

Shorter times on visitor moorings allowing greater turn over at busy locations could help but not paying to stay longer.

CC’ers have complained that shortening the VM mooring times is not fair to them but all of the rest of the tow path is 14 days, how long does it take to go shopping or visit a pub.

If a CC’er needs a hospital visit or for some other valid reason needs to stay longer that is within their licence conditions, they only need to contact C&RT.

Hire companies showing more common sense and putting some sensible advice in their advertising literature regarding mooring, especially in busy locations.

 

That’s a few ideas there are bound to be more but before anything happens C&RT have to take the time to really understand what is happening, deal with persistent offenders using their existing legal powers if necessary.

Then they need to consult with all boaters not put forward their ideas but ask boaters what they think, yes there will be all kinds of opinions, then come up with a mooring strategy which will work for the majority, they will never please everyone.

 

Ken

[Neil TNC]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit chaps.....

 

I can't immediately find the numbers, but I know we have been here before.

 

Actually the total number of issued licences is declared in the BW annual reports as pretty static, (that much I see).

 

But I know the one "growth area" is that of those not declaring a home mooring! (If you recall John, that was one reason Sally claimed they were important - the only area where licence revenue is rising! ).

 

So for those who see the "CC-er" numbers as a problem, I think we have to stop pretending the actual total could possibly be on the decline on the decline - I feel quite sure it isn't.

 

Proper enforcement may mean they are being held more to a boating pattern that CRT think they should adopt, but I think we are on very sticky ground trying to claim they are taking up permanent moorings in large numbers.

 

Certainly down here, I know many people have quit marinas due to rising costs, and are now without a declared home mooring. I suspect as many are giving up moorings as are taking them, but I can't prove that, I'll admit.

 

In the last couple of years I would agree with you, but strangely Harefield Marina is full* (this is not just a winter thing). Phil is eager to know when we are actually quitting, as he has a waiting list.....and that will be starting a mooring during the "cruising season". I dunno if this is because of their pricing policy, as they have never been the most expensive in the area.

 

full*

full as in narrowboat moorings. There are some cruiser moorings available, and they don't encourage wide beam long term.

[rgreg]

...and, even if that is true, you still don't explain how this is damaging your lifestyle.

If additional rules and restrictions are introduced as a result then that will affect everyone.

[BiggusDickus]

Thanks for all your replies to my original OP it has been an interesting debate. A few observations from my point of view. It seems clear that there is no system at present for accurately recording complaints whether real or perceived. Is there a need in some areas to return to the old fashioned lengthsman. Someone who knew the local area, the boaters, the problems and complaints. Someone who can work with the local boaters and not someone merely enforcing regulations.

[carlt]

If additional rules and restrictions are introduced as a result then that will affect everyone.

As they are attempting to introduce them in a "zero complaints" situation I would think that the perception of overstaying is more damaging to your lifestyle than the actual perpetration otherwise these restrictions would be being implemented on the Lancaster Canal rather than the Southern GU.

[bowten]

Thanks for all your replies to my original OP it has been an interesting debate. A few observations from my point of view. It seems clear that there is no system at present for accurately recording complaints whether real or perceived. Is there a need in some areas to return to the old fashioned lengthsman. Someone who knew the local area, the boaters, the problems and complaints. Someone who can work with the local boaters and not someone merely enforcing regulations.

I would have to agree this was always the way it was and I wish CRT could return to it,possibly a part time position to keep costs down.

[rgreg]

As they are attempting to introduce them in a "zero complaints" situation I would think that the perception of overstaying is more damaging to your lifestyle than the actual perpetration otherwise these restrictions would be being implemented on the Lancaster Canal rather than the Southern GU.

As I have said previously, I have no perception of anything that is currently damaging my lifestyle but I do see the possibility of this changing in the future.

[cotswoldsman]

The only quick thing I have managed to find is.....

 

 

 

Obviously that is a big increase, but looking over 5 years - later I'll see if I can find numbers for any of those intervening years.

 

surley that is an increase in CCing licences but not in number of boats

[cotswoldsman]

As they are attempting to introduce them in a "zero complaints" situation I would think that the perception of overstaying is more damaging to your lifestyle than the actual perpetration otherwise these restrictions would be being implemented on the Lancaster Canal rather than the Southern GU.

 

I must say that on The Lancaster canal like The Midlands the old BW just went and changed the mooring times without any consultation. I was actually moored on 7 day mooring at Garstang when BW came and changed them to 48 hours having said all that during my 5 months on Lancaster Canal never had a problem with finding moorings (depth of canal apart)

[carlt]

As I have said previously, I have no perception of anything that is currently damaging my lifestyle but I do see the possibility of this changing in the future.

Fair enough.

 

I don't share your pessimism, regarding fellow boaters.

 

I think it far more likely that lack of maintenance, resulting in the wholesale closure of canals, will have a much more drastic effect on your lifestyle than a few overstayers.

[Neil TNC]

I think it far more likely that lack of maintenance, resulting in the wholesale closure of canals, will have a much more drastic effect on your lifestyle than a few overstayers.

 

Lack of maintenance due to millions spent on enforcement?

[Chris Pink]

The only quick thing I have managed to find is.....

 

 

 

Obviously that is a big increase, but looking over 5 years - later I'll see if I can find numbers for any of those intervening years.

 

If you believe their figures.

 

Lack of maintenance due to millions spent on enforcement?

It is my impression that the enforcement team with the antonymous head of boating play a much more politically astute corporate game than the engineers who would rather be engineering than buying into the corporate budgetary bun fights.

[alan_fincher]

surley that is an increase in CCing licences but not in number of boats

Yes, I don't think I have said otherwise.

 

The number of boats did rise steadily for the stat of that five year period, but is now fairly static.

 

The number of CC-ing ones has risen at least 3 times faster, IIRC, than the overall number.

 

If CC-ers are rising still, but boat numbers static, then more people must continue to be becoming CC-ers than are ceasing to be.

 

If you believe their figures.

They seem perfectly plausible based on my observation of quite a lot of the network, (but before you point it out, obviously by no means all of it!)

[Pretty Funked Up]

As an individual boater of many years, 40 +, I can honestly say that NCCC’s do not affect me in the slightest. Neither am I affected by full visitor moorings, I am capable of walking a few hundred yards.

 

Ken

 

 

If only they could sort the actual canal out or or... move those winos off all the benches that would be way more useful