Steam Engine Generator?

[Doodlebug]

Absolutely no idea where to put this, so moderators please move it if i've done it wrong!

 

As you may have read, my solar panels aren't quite up to the job of keeping our electricity supply going. So I was sat thinking about what form of energy I could use to get some more power, and thought about using a steam engine, to spin an alternator.

 

I was thinking that the tank of water would go inside the stove, and steam would be pumped out, through the steam engine, and then would run through pipes, and radiators, to get back the heat put into the water into the boat. the steam would then vent outside.

 

Ive seen the little steam engine models running at quite a speed.

 

I'm sure no one has tried this, but are there any physics geniuses out there who think this might be plausible?

 

The kits are quite expensive, im having a look around for a cheaper one.

 

Thanks,

 

doodlebug

[Grace and Favour]

Absolutely no idea where to put this, so moderators please move it if i've done it wrong!

 

As you may have read, my solar panels aren't quite up to the job of keeping our electricity supply going. So I was sat thinking about what form of energy I could use to get some more power, and thought about using a steam engine, to spin an alternator.

 

I was thinking that the tank of water would go inside the stove, and steam would be pumped out, through the steam engine, and then would run through pipes, and radiators, to get back the heat put into the water into the boat. the steam would then vent outside.

 

Ive seen the little steam engine models running at quite a speed.

 

I'm sure no one has tried this, but are there any physics geniuses out there who think this might be plausible?

 

The kits are quite expensive, im having a look around for a cheaper one.

 

Thanks,

 

doodlebug

 

Have you Googled - - - - there's loads of info - likethis

[Doodlebug]

Yes I have done, i'm looking for something a lot smaller and cheaper than that. Just having a boost from a spinning alternator would be perfect.

[Grace and Favour]

Yes I have done, i'm looking for something a lot smaller and cheaper than that. Just having a boost from a spinning alternator would be perfect.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure what your budget is - of course - but you'll need a reasonably sturdy steam engine to drive an 100A alternator - - -

 

I've not seen a 'model' steam engine that would do that - (though I'm not saying they don't exist, of course)

[Doodlebug]

The budget depends on how much its going to help! I was under the impression that a steam engine will be very powerful and could charge batteries no problem.

 

If only I had one to test!

 

I had also seen this thing:

 

http://tegpower.com/pro8.htm

 

Which I figure I could make, but the problem is knowing quite how much power im going to get from it. it says 15W, but how a homemade one would work I dont know. I know pelters are very inefficient, but then surely the lost heat goes into the boat.

[BEngo]

Absolutely no idea where to put this, so moderators please move it if i've done it wrong!

 

As you may have read, my solar panels aren't quite up to the job of keeping our electricity supply going. So I was sat thinking about what form of energy I could use to get some more power, and thought about using a steam engine, to spin an alternator.

 

I was thinking that the tank of water would go inside the stove, and steam would be pumped out, through the steam engine, and then would run through pipes, and radiators, to get back the heat put into the water into the boat. the steam would then vent outside.

 

Ive seen the little steam engine models running at quite a speed.

 

I'm sure no one has tried this, but are there any physics geniuses out there who think this might be plausible?

 

The kits are quite expensive, im having a look around for a cheaper one.

 

Thanks,

 

doodlebug

 

 

Good Idea!, but....

 

Burning coal to turn water into steam then into electricity (or any other form of power) is not at all efficient (single figures of % unless you do it on a National Grid scale with turbines not reciprocating steam.). You would need to run the stove very hard to get it to boil the water and I doubt that many stoves backboilers will like this (as opposed to a purpose-designed boiler) and it will be damn hot near the stove.

 

Once you have the steam the ideal set-up is to exhaust from the engine at lower-than-atmospheric pressure so as to get the most work out of the steam and incidentally ensure that there is little dissoved air. This is not really compatible with pumping the resulting water round some radiators and back to the boiler.

 

You would need quite a big steam engine to produce any useable power. The little models seem to go like hell, but only when they are not delivering any power. Say 10A at 14.5 V (a good battery charging point) is an output of 145W, so you are going to need an input of over 200W or somewhere about 1/4 horsepower, depending on the alternator's efficiency. That's not toy engine territory.

 

"Ordinary" steam engines like to run quite slowly (0-150 rpm -ish) when producing power so you need to gear them up to the alternator and the alternator needs to be doing 3000+ rpm ( there are expensive low-speed models)so the gearing ratio is high and hard to get with simple belts.

 

Oh, and steam engines need an awful lot of looking after whilst they are running.

 

Better to spend the dosh on some more solar or a good fossil-fuelled generator.

 

N

[Arthur Brown]

There is still a need to burn fuel to make steam to make electricity. You will need to buy that fuel unless you have a source of burnable waste. If it's more than a toy you will also need to have regular boiler inspections.

 

Nice idea but don't ignore the practicalities.

[notaminga]

I'm pretty certain that if you had any kind of steam engine fitted inside the boat, you would need to have a boiler certificate to comply with the BSS - thus adding cost and complexity!

[Delta9]

Absolutely no idea where to put this, so moderators please move it if i've done it wrong!

 

As you may have read, my solar panels aren't quite up to the job of keeping our electricity supply going. So I was sat thinking about what form of energy I could use to get some more power, and thought about using a steam engine, to spin an alternator.

 

I was thinking that the tank of water would go inside the stove, and steam would be pumped out, through the steam engine, and then would run through pipes, and radiators, to get back the heat put into the water into the boat. the steam would then vent outside.

 

Ive seen the little steam engine models running at quite a speed.

 

I'm sure no one has tried this, but are there any physics geniuses out there who think this might be plausible?

 

The kits are quite expensive, im having a look around for a cheaper one.

 

Thanks,

 

doodlebug

 

I would think that thermo electric generators (Wiki) would be more efficient for getting power from a wood burner than making a steam engine, especially as you have a big cold steel hull to use as a heat sink. I've not tried this myself yet though, so I may be talking out of my arse.

[DHutch]

Alternatively, have a look at the Whisper Gen sterling engines.

 

A couple of the steam narrowboats have small steam engines driving generators/alternators but it would certainly be a long way round if you didnt already have the steam plant installed, inspected, in steam, and waiting.

 

 

Daniel

[Bob18]

No "toy" engine will give you the power you need to keep your batteries charged :-(

You have to move up to the "model engineering" class, and that costs a fair bit more.

As has been said you need a controlled output of at least a couple of hundred watts, at the input speed of your generator. Obviously you could use a direct coupled, low speed generator, but they come under the "not cheap" heading in most catalogues. That said rather than going to steam, with all the problems that brings with it I'd look at the small scale Stirling cycle engines that are around, these tend to be a it more efficient as you use the heat (energy) directly rather than converting it into steam first.

 

TEG looks to be one of those things that is just around the corner. Just now it is expensive for the sort of power you need, but one day someone will crack it for small scale installations and it will become more price-attractive, but until then its not so good. The product in the earlier link will only give you an amp or so at 14V, so not much of a charge, even if you run your stove hard all day.

[waterworks]

not this one again ?

 

A : steam engines on this scale are high maintanance, you have to be there 24/7 looking after it

 

B : such a peice of plant would have to be hand built, and cost thousands, including boiler inspection and all kinds of regs.

 

C : high pressure boiler is a potential bomb, forget it unless you like the Simon Weston look.

 

What you do want is a safe and silent Stirling engine generator, unfortunatly no one makes them off the shelf at the size we want, unless you can find a CHP unit for canibalizing.

 

TEG's are pants.

[peterboat]

I have the said whispergen it works well but is expensive £10,000 and you cant buy them anymore as the factory in NZ closed a couple of years ago due to earthquake!! mine runs on kero or red diesel produces hot water, rads and up to 74 amps at 12v it uses 3/4 litre of fuel an hour which drops to about a third of a litre on float charge I bought mine secondhand from Tipos marine in Rotherham Ian knows all there is to know about them. have a look on the tinternet for his number. Also when ir says whisper it means it they are quiet|| so good

 

 

Peter

[DHutch]

I have the said whispergen it works well but is expensive £10,000 and you cant buy them anymore as the factory in NZ closed a couple of years ago due to earthquake!! mine runs on kero or red diesel produces hot water, rads and up to 74 amps at 12v it uses 3/4 litre of fuel an hour which drops to about a third of a litre on float charge I bought mine secondhand from Tipos marine in Rotherham Ian knows all there is to know about them. have a look on the tinternet for his number. Also when ir says whisper it means it they are quiet|| so good

 

 

Peter

Often wondered what these are like to use, obviously only really economical if you have a use for the heat as well as the electricity, but as you usually do.... winner.

 

How quite is it, can you hear it working if your at the other end of the boat from it moored in the middle of knowhere? Reliability/servicing costs?

 

 

Daniel

[ditchcrawler]

Often wondered what these are like to use, obviously only really economical if you have a use for the heat as well as the electricity, but as you usually do.... winner.

 

How quite is it, can you hear it working if your at the other end of the boat from it moored in the middle of knowhere? Reliability/servicing costs?

 

 

Daniel

I moored behind a boat in Cropredy and saw a wif of white smoke come out of the exhaust. O no Ebber starting up I think, but no silence, not a peep outside the boat. That was a Wispergen. Don't know what they did with the heat.

[peterboat]

Hi as the previous gent says very quiet the smoke is normally steam as they are that clean! My whispergen is in the wheelhouse with doors shut to cabin nowt heard! I suspect it might just be cheaper than running the engine for power but throw in the heat and its a no brainer. Also it can run from a timer so it starts up an hour before I get up and also before I get home from work, then its light the stove and its all cosy.

 

Peter

 

Sorry forgot other questions its been very reliable and servicing is easy BW used them in all their pods after extensive tests but we can take that with a pinch of salt ha ha

 

 

Peter

[Pretty Funked Up]

Sure they dropped these in the desert for 'flat' tanks during wartime. A nice gentlemen told me they burned camel dung and pissed in it for the steam. Love the inginuity. No idea on cost but guessing theyre collectable by now

 

quick bit of googling says the last one on ebay went for over £1000

 

Edited March 11, 2013 by Pretty Funked Up

[NB Alnwick]

Sure they dropped these in the desert for 'flat' tanks during wartime. A nice gentlemen told me they burned camel dung and pissed in it for the steam. Love the inginuity. No idea on cost but guessing theyre collectable by now

 

quick bit of googling says the last one on ebay went for over £1000

 

 

I think these were used for charging portable radio/communication batteries - the main advantage being that they were silent so didn't attract the enemy. Having said that, I think they were pretty weak and inefficient even when compared with contemporary (1940s) petrol generators. Most British tanks of the period had a small auxiliary petrol engine that had a magneto and could be hand started with a starting handle - usually an Austin 7 type engine or similar. The auxiliary engine provided power for the ancillaries and enough umph to start the main engine.

[onionbargee]

The bigger ones like this only put out 8 amps at 6 volts, this mini one must be only a couple of amps

 

[NB Alnwick]

The 'Green Steam Engine' claims to produce:

 

10.04 HP @125 psi, 1500 RPM's

 

4.01 HP@ 50 psi, 1500 RPM's

 

18.40 cubic feet per minute

 

52 ft lbs torque @ 10 HP

 

Up to 6.5 kW depending on the generator used.

 

Perhaps we ought to get one built and try it? Any forum member volunteering?

[Captain Zim]

Yeah the 'Green Steam Engine'. Hard to believe it for some reason. More internet searching seems to reveal a lot of scepticism over the inventors claims. Still, who knows? Could be worth a shot.

 

Like others have said, this must be one of the most thought about topics for anyone who lives on a boat. Solar is excellent in summer (well, mine seems to be) but then I try to have a very low demand. Winter it's basically pointless.

 

I still think its hard to get much better than a decent suitcase genny. Shame really.

 

It would be great to invent some amazing machine that utilised all of the resources we have close at hand (wood, cold water).

 

The mars rover uses a 100w nuclear power plant. Do you reckon NASA has any spares? I'd be up for clubbing together for one of those.

[Pretty Funked Up]

Wouldnt it be a lot easier to go down the tip and try to find an old 2 stroke strimmer and convert that?

 

Most of its done for you then

 

(that Mars rover runs off a TEG )

Edited March 14, 2013 by Pretty Funked Up

[Captain Zim]

Wouldnt it be a lot easier to go down the tip and try to find an old 2 stroke strimmer and convert that?

 

Most of its done for you then

 

(that Mars rover runs off a TEG )

 

It runs off plutonium dioxide...

[Grace and Favour]

It runs off plutonium dioxide...

 

Will B&Q stock that (in small cartridges?)

[Captain Zim]

Will B&Q stock that (in small cartridges?)

 

Screw fix. You have to buy a pack of 10 but you get a free Geiger counter thrown in. It's the suit you have to wear to change the empty ones that's the real pain