Ex-FMC Kestrel - Help please

[AMModels]

That's how I have understood it, but obviously if the surviving full length boat were (all of) Kestrel, then that back end with a new front on can't be!

 

 

Ah well yes, Im getting cross eyed now trying to even type an explanation of what I meant.

 

One is Kestrel and the other is/was/might be Ostrich but both/all/most of them are called Kestrel at present...? Maybe?

 

More beer Admiral please!!

 

[Speedwheel]

So whichever boat it is that was cut in two, the stern is owned by Chris D, but is the bow still around?

[stagedamager]

At Langley Mill in the Great Northern Basin I believe.

Dan

[Speedwheel]

Thanks Dan,

 

 

Rather than starting another thread I'll hijack this one, at Brewood there is a boat called Eric Bloodaxe. It's the front end of a Josher. Does anyone know what boat it was/is?

[stagedamager]

I believe there is also a bit of one at Willowbridge, MK I saw it the other day, any ideas?

[alan_fincher]

So whichever boat it is that was cut in two, the stern is owned by Chris D, but is the bow still around?

Yes,

 

I think we have established that Water Lily is the bow end to Chis Deuchar's "arse end".

 

The debate is only whether the two bits of that boat are originally Kestrel, or Martin O'Callaghan's full length one.

 

I know Mr Harrisson avoids speculation, and deals only in facts, but I get the impression it is actually more likely that it is the cut boat that is the real Kestrel, from all that I have read so far.

[GUMPY]

So if the cut up boat is Kestrel whats the one masquerading as Kestrel and if Kestrel is Kestrel what are the other two bits

Edited January 1, 2013 by idleness

[stagedamager]

Ostrich

[alan_fincher]

Thanks Dan,

 

 

Rather than starting another thread I'll hijack this one, at Brewood there is a boat called Eric Bloodaxe. It's the front end of a Josher. Does anyone know what boat it was/is?

A lot of information here......

 

If accurate it is Rhine/Rose

 

I purchased the boat back in 1985 at which point it was 42ft long.

The boat was originally built by Braithwaite & Kirk of West Bromwich for the Fellows Morton & Clayton company in 1913 to there successful “Josher” pattern.

It was built as a 71ft 6in horse boat which was named Rhine which then was changed to Rose due to the Germanic nature of the original name.

From delivery it was used by the FMC Co until it was damaged during an incendiary raid whilst moored in the loading wharf at the HP sauce factory.

It was then scrapped due mainly to the buckling of the hull side plates caused by the heat generated from the wooden boat that was on fire next to it reputedly loaded with figs.

Around about 1940 the remains were purchased by Mattys of coseley whom commissioned Harris’s of Netherton to shorten it & convert it into a tug for them to use in there busy towage business.

The work carried out by Harris’s was done to a simple & workman like standard resulting in a tug of 42ft with approximately 22ft of the original Josher bows being retained although some of it still badly buckled, this was attached to a new stern swim & counter of a very simple nature. At this time they also did other jobs like overplating to the original bow, new wooden bottom & new wooden cabin It at this time that the boat was renamed Eric after one of Alfred Matty’s son’s.

After its time with Matty’s the boat was sold into private hands & used extensively around the BCN during which time it was named Erik. After this it was sold & spent some time on the Bank at Ashwood marina.

The couple that I bought the boat from saw it on the bank at Ashwood & bought it. They used it for many years as a holiday boat under the name of Emily.

During that time I met them & said if you ever want to sell it can I have first refusal which I was subsequently given in late 1985.

I bought the boat & put it onto the bank at Les Allens & sons yard in Oldbury. It sat on their bank for the next year whilst we worked through our order book. We then put aside the next summer to work on the boat. We started out with the intention of just re bottoming it & then putting on a new cabin.

But my perfectionist streak stepped in & we ended up scrapping all but 16ft of the original Josher Bows as the Harris’s conversion was not in good condition & would never have come up to the standard & traditional shape that I was aiming for. During this process I took the decision to scrap 6ft of the original hull side due to them being so buckled that it would be impossible to complete the build to the standard that I required.

After building the hull we launched the boat & built the new cabin. At this time I renamed the Boat Erik Bloodaxe as a bit of a nod to the history of the boat & all the people that had known it as Erik of which there were many around the BCN.

We then had a 12month contract doing restoration work at the new National Waterways Museum at Gloucester so the boat was towed down to Gloucester. When we left Gloucester after our twelve months I was able to cruise it back to Gailey under its own power having installed the engine & completed some more work during that time.

I then spent the best part of the next 10 years completing boat. Working on it when time & money allowed.

[Speedwheel]

Thanks Alan. I now vaguely remember being told it used to be called Erik. It was on the market at about the same time as I bought Satellite and I was tempted to have a look, but they wanted almost £50k which was way too much for me at the time.

[Hastings]

Yes,

 

I think we have established that Water Lily is the bow end to Chis Deuchar's "arse end".

 

The debate is only whether the two bits of that boat are originally Kestrel, or Martin O'Callaghan's full length one.

 

I know Mr Harrisson avoids speculation, and deals only in facts, but I get the impression it is actually more likely that it is the cut boat that is the real Kestrel, from all that I have read so far.

 

Again, thanks everybody for your replies to my initial post. My reason for asking about Kestrel is that I am publishing a book in the spring with lots of photos of historic boats. I'm not going to say more about it yet, or use this forum to advertise it, however I may use the forum to get further information.

 

In summary, looking at all the posts, and particularly Pete Harrison's, which is based on genuine BW contemporaneous documents, it looks as if Kestrel was cut into two in 1959, with the stern going into the former (but now converted) maintenance boat now at Trent Lock (N Old R Send), and the bow into the hire boat Water Lily.

 

So that would mean that the full length boat called Kestrel is not Kestrel. It could be some of Ostrich, with other bits added on. It might be all of Kestrel, but given what BW said, it seems unlikely. However, if by initiating this thread, I have raised doubts in the minds of the full length boat's owner, then I'm sorry. I can only say that I'm looking for fact.

 

Again, thanks, and I'll be glad to hear of any further information.

 

Peter

Audlem Mill

Edited January 1, 2013 by Hastings

[Speedwheel]

Peter,

 

I've got your email about Usworth. I've not forgotten and I will reply to it!

 

Thanks

 

Mark

[pete harrison]

So that would mean that the full length boat called Kestrel is not Kestrel. It could be some of Ostrich, with other bits added on. It might be all of Kestrel, but given what BW said, it seems unlikely. However, if by initiating this thread, I have raised doubts in the minds of the full length boat's owner, then I'm sorry. I can only say that I'm looking for fact.

 

Peter

Audlem Mill

The full length boat that was sold by 'British Waterways' as OSTRICH but has been named KESTREL for the past 45 years or so is a complete F.M.C. Ltd. 'Yarwood' built motor - it is not made up from any "other bits". The current owner of this boat is fully aware of its past history and apparently has photographic evidence to support his theory that it is KESTREL. Last time I attempted to discuss this subject with him (July 2007) he became very threatening, so I left him to his opinion.

 

I am 'dipping out' of this thread now as I have unwittingly been giving up my information for somebody else to profit from - rather than satisfying the interests of enthusiasts. I am always prepared to assist at no charge with publications but I would rather know about it first

Edited January 1, 2013 by pete harrison

[Hastings]

The full length boat that was sold by 'British Waterways' as OSTRICH but has been named KESTREL for the past 45 years or so is a complete F.M.C. Ltd. 'Yarwood' built motor - it is not made up from any "other bits". The current owner of this boat is fully aware of its past history and apparently has photographic evidence to support his theory that it is KESTREL. Last time I attempted to discuss this subject with him (July 2007) he became very threatening, so I left him to his opinion.

 

I am 'dipping out' of this thread now as I have unwittingly been giving up my information for somebody else to profit from - rather than satisfying the interests of enthusiasts. I am always prepared to assist at no charge with publications but I would rather know about it first

 

Pete -

 

My apologies that I didn't say earlier what I was doing. However, I am publishing a book that I think will do at least two things. Firstly, it should be interesting to anyone interested in canal history, and hopefully also, enthusiasts will enjoy it. Secondly, it's something that I and the photographer have wanted to do for several years, because we are enthusiasts and we have photos of nearly 500 historic working boats taken in very recent years, and want to make them available to a wider audience. Given the significant cost of self publishing, this is not a money making exercise! We know the costs, and we aren't doing this to make money. In fact, we don't expect to make anything, but simply hope at least to cover the costs.

 

Peter

[FMC Ling 317]

The full length motor is Kestrel as she is the exact length as stated on the b.c.n gauging sheet!! Ostrich the boat cut up is 6 inch shorter stated on her sheet

[Laurence Hogg]

You cannot rely on the accuracy of boat lengths in BCN or any other tables, boats vary over the years also these measurements were done by hand. The only one I have found to be reliable is hold length.

[pete harrison]

You cannot rely on the accuracy of boat lengths in BCN or any other tables, boats vary over the years also these measurements were done by hand. The only one I have found to be reliable is hold length.

The only measurements I have found to be reliable is "draught when light", "draught when laden" and "dry inches" - after all these were the figures that the tolls were charged against.

[pete harrison]

The full length motor is Kestrel as she is the exact length as stated on the b.c.n gauging sheet!! Ostrich the boat cut up is 6 inch shorter stated on her sheet

This is an extremely weak arguement as the lengths quoted on B.C.N. gauge tables can be proven to be inaccurate, as is the case with the lengths given on Grand Junction Canal and Oxford Canal gauge tables.

 

The present owner of the full length motor currently named KESTREL has his opinions to the identity of his boat but will not discuss them with me, and I know he can get quite animated about them (he threatened me last time we did speak). My opinions are soundly based upon period documentaion, although I am well aware of the boatmans tales and the current owners opinions.

 

EDIT - I do not know which B.C.N. gauge tables you have been looking at but F.M.C. Ltd. KETREL is B.C.N. 1560 with the length given as 70'7'', whereas F.M.C. Ltd. OSTRICH is B.C.N. 1455 with the length given as 71'9'' - this makes OSTRICH 14'' longer than KESTREL. Interestingly Shropshire Union Railways & Canal Company had an OSTRICH that is gauged as B.C.N. 13137 with the length given as 70'1'' - coincidentally the 6'' shorter than KESTREL that is mentioned above. Just for completion the Grand Junction / Union Canal gauge for F.M.C. Ltd. KESTREL is G.J. 12298 and was a straight forward copy of B.C.N. 1560 but renumbered and redated (this was a common practice).

Edited August 27, 2013 by pete harrison