Winter moorings

[andy the hammer]

We have just paid for two months on towpath winter moorings and for November there were no boats booked,December there is just ourselves,January there is ourselves and one other boat and February/March there is no bookings.

100 metres have been allocated at £9.49/mtr so should Canals and Rivers be asking why there is so little take up and is this reflected across the waterways?

[GoodGurl]

Another subject thats never been covered on here

[Grace and Favour]

We have just paid for two months on towpath winter moorings and for November there were no boats booked,December there is just ourselves,January there is ourselves and one other boat and February/March there is no bookings.

100 metres have been allocated at £9.49/mtr so should Canals and Rivers be asking why there is so little take up and is this reflected across the waterways?

 

I thought that down on your stretch you don't need to pay for moorings do you???

 

 

Surely you just move a couple of miles every 14 days - forming a circuitous route

[alan_fincher]

Nothing on telly tonight, then ?

[cotswoldsman]

I think winter moorings are now completely over priced. If CaRT were to make these more reasonable then there would be a higher take up and CaRT would end up with more revenue.

[blodger]

I think winter moorings are now completely over priced. If CaRT were to make these more reasonable then there would be a higher take up and CaRT would end up with more revenue.

I do not see how anyone could disagree with you. Even 'on benefit' liveaboards that could get the council to pay for winter moorings will not take them because they see it as a rip off that even if they are not paying the tax payer is.

[sueb]

Are winter moorings dearer than other towpath moorings? To be viable they should be the same price.

[alan_fincher]

Are winter moorings dearer than other towpath moorings? To be viable they should be the same price.

In our are they seem to be priced somewhat higher than long term towpath moorings.

 

Depending on the exact site close to my home CRT are pricing winter moorings at about £10 to £12 per metre per month, so grossed up to a full year that is equivalent to £120 to £144 per metre per year.

 

The normal "price list" rate for long term moorings with few facilities is more like £110.

 

So Winter Moorings are maybe 10%to 25% more expensive, pro rata, (possibly different elsewhere - I've not checked).

 

Mind you, I think I saw justification in the past that a winter moorer will typically use the mooring every day, whereas a normal long term permit holder will be paying for a berth they are not using for some of the year, making the charges more equivalent (!)

 

Personally I'm not convinced if they shaved (say) 10% to 25% of the rate they are charging that take up of the berths would massively increase. There seems to be very little compulsion to take one, and not huge advantages in doing so, (around here, at least). In many areas, I suspect they would need to be heaps cheaper to get a very much larger uptake.

[Lady Muck]

Up here they're the same price as my fully serviced (elec, water, parking, nice big fence), mooring. No wonder there's barely any take up, ever. We have no unserviced towpath permanent moorings in London so because people aren't familiar with that, they see this as even worse value. The only places they sell out are in town for obvious reasons. Victoria Park always sold out but this could change following the mass break-ins, boaters who bought them are now refusing to moor there after what happened. Needs to change imo.

[Dave_P]

From memory I paid £100 per month for my 55' in the centre of Brum, with no facilities whatsoever. I was new to boating and just wanted to be sure of having somewhere to moor through my first winter. If I went back to continuous cruising, I wouldn't bother. Apart from anything else, the CaRT mooring inspectors aren't too fussed with over staying in the winter. There's far fewer boats on the move so far less pressure on visitor moorings. The cruising options a fewer anyway, due to closures. And then ice forms and you can't move, even if you want to.

 

I think this is why people don't take up winter moorings. Where's the incentive? I've seen boats moored a few yards down from a combined sani station (elsan, water, bins, toilets, showers) right through december, january and february and nobody bothered them at all. So they got a better winter mooring for nothing than the one I ended up paying £500 for! Once I realised this, I moved closer to the sani station myself.

[Phoenix_V]

In our are they seem to be priced somewhat higher than long term towpath moorings.

 

Depending on the exact site close to my home CRT are pricing winter moorings at about £10 to £12 per metre per month, so grossed up to a full year that is equivalent to £120 to £144 per metre per year.

 

The normal "price list" rate for long term moorings with few facilities is more like £110.

 

So Winter Moorings are maybe 10%to 25% more expensive, pro rata, (possibly different elsewhere - I've not checked).

 

Mind you, I think I saw justification in the past that a winter moorer will typically use the mooring every day, whereas a normal long term permit holder will be paying for a berth they are not using for some of the year, making the charges more equivalent (!)

 

Personally I'm not convinced if they shaved (say) 10% to 25% of the rate they are charging that take up of the berths would massively increase. There seems to be very little compulsion to take one, and not huge advantages in doing so, (around here, at least). In many areas, I suspect they would need to be heaps cheaper to get a very much larger uptake.

We bid on a towpath leisure mooring in Milton Keynes last year and got it at the reserve price of about £1000, 23m boat so about £45/metre.

Of course they are too dear!

Edited December 4, 2012 by Phoenix_V

[alan_fincher]

We bid on a towpath leisure mooring in Milton Keynes last year and got it at the reserve price of about £1000, 23m boat so about £45/metre.

Quite intrigued by that, as I have an interest and monitor GU auction prices quite closely.

 

I don't think I have yet seen a permanent GU advertised as long as 23m, but may be wrong. (That would imply a 75.5 foot boat).

 

Cheapest I have noted for a full length boat in that area was a 22 metre one at Black Horse, but the reserve on that was actually £1,152, so I can't currently find any full time, full length (or near full length), ones in the MK that have sold at less than about £52 per metre.

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

Link to auction I'm talking about for clarity.

 

I'm happy to be corrected though, if you can point me at the particular auction involved.

 

(I'm not suggesting any difference in these numbers is that pertinent to discussions here, but if facts are quoted, it is good to be able to find the basis for them, IMO).

 

Towpath moorings in the MK area are of course anyway cheaper than in the area I was referring to.

Edited December 4, 2012 by alan_fincher

[pearley]

It's not just the prices but the daft mooring sites they pick.

 

For instance, why the VM at the summit level of the Chesterfield with no facilities but not Shireoaks which has everything. Why Eastwood with a long reverse back for water and a mile walk to the shops rather than Doncaster.

 

For me to take a Winter Mooring I want water, elsan, electric and shops. There are not many CRT sites that offer all of these at a reasonable price.

 

If you compare the price for a winter mooring with the published price for a long term mooring, at the same site, then the winter mooring is invariably dearer. And why can you only rent one for a complete calendar month? Why not just for two or three weeks over the Christmas period.

 

Regards

Pete

[Phoenix_V]

Quite intrigued by that, as I have an interest and monitor GU auction prices quite closely.

 

I don't think I have yet seen a permanent GU advertised as long as 23m, but may be wrong. (That would imply a 75.5 foot boat).

 

Cheapest I have noted for a full length boat in that area was a 22 metre one at Black Horse, but the reserve on that was actually £1,152, so I can't currently find any full time, full length (or near full length), ones in the MK that have sold at less than about £52 per metre.

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

Link to auction I'm talking about for clarity.

 

I'm happy to be corrected though, if you can point me at the particular auction involved.

 

(I'm not suggesting any difference in these numbers is that pertinent to discussions here, but if facts are quoted, it is good to be able to find the basis for them, IMO).

 

Towpath moorings in the MK area are of course anyway cheaper than in the area I was referring to.

 

Thats the one, sorry I was speaking from memory and translating 71.5' to metric on the fly, I know MK is far out but I bet they are asking for a lot more than that for any winter moorings in MK, I do remember there were some leisure moorings in Uxbridge at the time for similar money though.

 

Edited to add, I have just looked, Winter moorings at the Black Horse are £6.98 per m per month so thats 60% more than we are paying, a trifle high?

Edited December 4, 2012 by Phoenix_V

[tillergirl]

I know we are not exactly in stock broker belt but our winter moorings cost slightly more than yours for a quarter for a 60ft narrowboat - fully serviced with access to launderette showers, diesel, fuel and gas. We even have a mobile post office one day a week that sets up here! There a nice pub 5 minutes walk away, a garage shop and a village bakery. What more could you ask?

Edited December 4, 2012 by tillergirl

[Ange]

From memory I paid £100 per month for my 55' in the centre of Brum, with no facilities whatsoever. I was new to boating and just wanted to be sure of having somewhere to moor through my first winter. If I went back to continuous cruising, I wouldn't bother. Apart from anything else, the CaRT mooring inspectors aren't too fussed with over staying in the winter. There's far fewer boats on the move so far less pressure on visitor moorings. The cruising options a fewer anyway, due to closures. And then ice forms and you can't move, even if you want to.

 

I think this is why people don't take up winter moorings. Where's the incentive? I've seen boats moored a few yards down from a combined sani station (elsan, water, bins, toilets, showers) right through december, january and february and nobody bothered them at all. So they got a better winter mooring for nothing than the one I ended up paying £500 for! Once I realised this, I moved closer to the sani station myself.

 

Wot he said. Plus we like changing the view out of our window regularly - it's why we live on a boat.

[alan_fincher]

Edited to add, I have just looked, Winter moorings at the Black Horse are £6.98 per m per month so thats 60% more than we are paying, a trifle high?

Yes,

 

A fair amount of that difference because you were lucky enough to secure that mooring at the time when BW had reserves set at only 75% of the guide price.

 

Unfortunately they have since had two "rethinks", (putting it politely!), setting reserves first at 80% of "guide", and now on all the more recent ones at 90% of "guide".

 

So, unless they have a change of heart, the minimum amount you can pay for a mooring if you get it at "reserve" is now 20% higher than it was when you got yours.

 

Count yourself lucky you are on a fixed price deal for three years, unlikely to ever be bettered!

 

Also a general review of mooring prices may well have increased the rate paid at Black Horse by anyone who is on standard terms, (rather than winning at auction), and Winter mooring prices will be allied to current rates, not what those rates were back when you got yours. EDIT: Scrub that remark - Black Horse is one they did not increase on the last general review of rates.

 

I do recall some argument that you make use of a winter mooring for the whole time you have it, whereas on a leisure mooring some of the time you are paying, but not using it.

 

But I'm not arguing with you - they are too expensive at somewhere like Black Horse for there to be serious uptake, unless a lot of "coercion" goes on!

 

FURTHER EDIT:

 

I think it is all coming back to me now!

 

If you look, Black Horse is £69.82 per metre per year)(long term) and (you say) £6.98 per metre per month (winter moorings).

 

So IIRC they are setting the monthly winter moorings rate at one tenth, rather than one twelfth of the annual rate for a long term mooring. I do recall something about this, and I think it was argued as reasonable because it is a shorter contract, and you'll be using the mooring for all of that time.

 

NOTE I'm not defending it, just trying to explain it. I reckon they set it 20% higher than long term moorings, (probably as a rule, but one would need to check others!)

Edited December 4, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Phoenix_V]

Yes,

 

A fair amount of that difference because you were lucky enough to secure that mooring at the time when BW had reserves set at only 75% of the guide price.

 

Unfortunately they have since had two "rethinks", (putting it politely!), setting reserves first at 80% of "guide", and now on all the more recent ones at 90% of "guide".

 

So, unless they have a change of heart, the minimum amount you can pay for a mooring if you get it at "reserve" is now 20% higher than it was when you got yours.

 

Count yourself lucky you are on a fixed price deal for three years, unlikely to ever be bettered!

 

Also a general review of mooring prices may well have increased the rate paid at Black Horse by anyone who is on standard terms, (rather than winning at auction), and Winter mooring prices will be allied to current rates, not what those rates were back when you got yours. EDIT: Scrub that remark - Black Horse is one they did not increase on the last general review of rates.

 

I do recall some argument that you make use of a winter mooring for the whole time you have it, whereas on a leisure mooring some of the time you are paying, but not using it.

 

But I'm not arguing with you - they are too expensive at somewhere like Black Horse for there to be serious uptake, unless a lot of "coercion" goes on!

 

FURTHER EDIT:

 

I think it is all coming back to me now!

 

If you look, Black Horse is £69.82 per metre per year)(long term) and (you say) £6.98 per metre per month (winter moorings).

 

So IIRC they are setting the monthly winter moorings rate at one tenth, rather than one twelfth of the annual rate for a long term mooring. I do recall something about this, and I think it was argued as reasonable because it is a shorter contract, and you'll be using the mooring for all of that time.

 

NOTE I'm not defending it, just trying to explain it. I reckon they set it 20% higher than long term moorings, (probably as a rule, but one would need to check others!)

 

20% extra doesnt seem that unreasonable except that we proved that the Black Horse rates are set to high when we were the only bidder and if there hadnt been that reserve price it would have gone for much less, of course no one wants it when they can and do moor further up the towpath for nothing and get exactly the same facilities! We are indeed happy because we needed a cheap mooring where the boat can be left and doesnt have to make even a token effort at moving. Though we would be even happier to pay the true market rate!

 

What was it they said to justify the mooring auction debacle, it would set the market rate (but they left out only if it is heading upwards)

 

Any one after just a winter mooring is probably much better off on the towpath for nothing and just move from time to time.

 

The real scandal is on the Lee where as Lady Muck says they are trying to charge as much for towpath moorings as serviced marina jobs.