Talk me out of a widebeam please

[alan_fincher]

I agree the feedback/instant response of a tiller is better but after a few months experience wheel/hydraulic steering is fine

I can only conclude then that many of the steerers or wheel steered narrow boats and wide-beams have not had that relevant few months experience.....

 

..... Except in several of the cases I have observed, I know they have!.........

 

I'm not saying it can't be done well, just that almost every one I have seen with no more than a handful of exceptions, hasn't ever really appeared to have the same control as an experienced steerer with a tiller.

 

The best in a while was a wheel-steered narrowboat we shared with through locks around the Ivinghoe area. The man involved, (who regularly stood on the bank with his head in hands muttering under his breath witnessing wife on the wheel!), asked me on the quiet if they could go first between every lock, because even though she thought she knew which side of a broad lock she would end up, the actual end result was generally quite random. It seemed the safest way to go!

[Kiwipeter]

Well it's a Liverpool that would make sense. It will be going to France.

 

Have fun in the commercial locks and going on the bigger rivers (how big is your engine)?

 

Best wishes etc

[Guest]

Have fun in the commercial locks and going on the bigger rivers (how big is your engine)?

 

Best wishes etc

 

Fortunately not all of the French system requires a powerful engine or something that can compete with the commercial boats in very big locks.

 

Large parts are eminently suitable for something like biggles boat -

Edited October 14, 2012 by The Dog House

[Biggles]

Have fun in the commercial locks and going on the bigger rivers (how big is your engine)?

 

Best wishes etc

 

Probably considerably bigger than yours to coin Harry Enfield.

 

114hp

[Albion]

Fortunately not all of the French system requires a powerful engine or something that can compete with the commercial boats in very big locks.

 

Large parts are eminently suitable for something like biggles boat -

 

From memory Kevin has an engine that is more than powerful enough (120hp IIRC although I stand to be corrected) but you will see from previous threads that neither Tam and Di, nor I, am enamoured with the gunwales and bitts on the typical widebeam nb for use in France and that is from practical experience of actually boating here. Yes, you can manage, but is managing safe or ideal?

Roger

[Guest]

From memory Kevin has an engine that is more than powerful enough (120hp IIRC although I stand to be corrected) but you will see from previous threads that neither Tam and Di, nor I, am enamoured with the gunwales and bitts on the typical widebeam nb for use in France and that is from practical experience of actually boating here. Yes, you can manage, but is managing safe or ideal?

Roger

 

Sorry Roger but this may apply to some parts of the French system but lots of it are very similar to the UK system.

 

I may not yet have actually boated there but have visited numerous boating locations to see for myself and whilst boating on some of the big rivers is clearly pushing things there are numerous locations where boating in France presents no more of a challenge than boating in the UK (Language difficulties aside of course)

 

In fact the presence of automated locks and/or lock keepers arguably makes the whole thing easier in certain respects.

Edited October 14, 2012 by The Dog House

[Albion]

Sorry Roger but this may apply to some parts of the French system but lots of it are very similar to the UK system.

 

I may not yet have actually boated there but have visited numerous boating locations to see for myself and whilst boating on some of the big rivers is clearly pushing things there are numerous locations where boating in France presents no more of a challenge than boating in the UK (Language difficulties aside of course)

 

In fact the presence of automated locks and/or lock keepers arguably makes the whole thing easier in certain respects.

I'm talking about the smaller canals, Nivernais, Centre, Lateral a la Loire, Loing, Briare etc. I have seen enough difficult situations to know that it is perfectly possible to manage but I have also seen enough other situations to know that I think a barge style boat is better, much better. Some French lock keepers, just to use one example, are less that careful in the way they open the paddles going upstream. Having whacked the paddles open they then walk off to do paperwork or just wait for the lock to fill. They have often crammed the locks full of boats (saves them work) and the lead boat has a very rough ride with less than perfectly placed lockside bollards. There is no chance of calling the lock keeper to shut the paddles down because they often aren't there to do it. Been there, done it etc.

Roger

[Guest]

Been there, done it etc.

Roger

 

Come on Roger stop overplaying this 'boating in France can be really difficult' thing.

 

I wonder why the French hire co's don't all hire out barge type craft...

[Tiger 1057]

Because we had extensive knowledge of the system we bought a boat that is still capable of doing all the Northern waterways from Foxton to Ripon and across the L and L and parts of the T and M and up to Lancaster for instance. Do NOT go bye the supposed dimensions as realistically travelling on some craft cannot be done at or even near to the supposed maximum beam of many canals.

Could I ask what dimensions are feasible for what you describe?

Whilst I accept that by possibly choosing a wide beam/replica dutch barge I am eliminating the possibility of cruising all the waterways but the reality is am I likely to do so anyway in a narrowboat - probably not.

Clearly finances will come into play but I do like my home cinema and full sized bed

Having said the above I really would like to do the L&L and similiar hence the question.

[Albion]

Come on Roger stop overplaying this 'boating in France can be really difficult' thing.

 

I wonder why the French hire co's don't all hire out barge type craft...

They hire out craft with gunwales that you can walk along and decks from which you can work easily. However, I'm not saying that there is an accident waiting to happen at every lock, there isn't. But, when it happens it can be unsettling to put it mildly. There are no hire bases hiring out wide beam nbs to my knowledge on the majority of the system. Does that tell you something? Perhaps. But don't take my word for it there are others that have direct experience that will take a similar line. All I can say is that I have been directly behind a wide beam nb in a lock where the locky was blasé and saw the extremely alarmed (master of understatement...he was sh1tting himself ) look on the skipper's face and his wife as they struggled to control the boat against the incoming flow, struggling to hold the ropes on the nb style dollies while the boat was being swept violently across the lock. That is not imagination, nor exaggeration. When you been there you might be slightly less gung ho about the difficulties involved with the design. Enjoy the French canals in whatever craft you wish by all means but realise that some craft are much more suited than others.

Roger

[John V]

They look MASSIVE inside, even when just 10ft wide.

OK they look ugly on the outside, but...

 

I live on a widebeam...a really wide beam. They are wonderfull to live in but are an incredible amount of hassle to cruise. As it is an ex working boat it looks brutal enough to make most commercial traffic give respect but this also makes a lot of marina owners run a mile. I am a bit over engined at 160hp but this gives a cruising speed of 8 knots. I find it easier to move her only occasionally and do my exploring of the system in much, much smaller narrow beam cruiser.

Edited October 14, 2012 by John V

[Grace and Favour]

I'm happy with my widebeam

Edited October 14, 2012 by Grace & Favour

[DeanS]

I'm happy with my widebeam

 

 

so am I. 10ft wide, and was very easy to manouvre, having never steered one before. I didnt bother trying to look down the sides...I just used the line of air vents...as a centre reference...and aimed for the crack between the 2 furthest lock gates.......it's impossible to "see down the side" without having to actually let go of the tiller...which isn't the best (I have small arms)

[haggis]

so am I. 10ft wide, and was very easy to manouvre, having never steered one before. I didnt bother trying to look down the sides...I just used the line of air vents...as a centre reference...and aimed for the crack between the 2 furthest lock gates.......it's impossible to "see down the side" without having to actually let go of the tiller...which isn't the best (I have small arms)

I saw a wide beam once being steered by the chaps foot!!! He leant across to look down the side of the boat and put his foot on the tiller and steered that way till he felt he no longer had to look down the side. Quite acrobatic!

 

haggis

[Guest]

They hire out craft with gunwales that you can walk along and decks from which you can work easily. However, I'm not saying that there is an accident waiting to happen at every lock, there isn't. But, when it happens it can be unsettling to put it mildly. There are no hire bases hiring out wide beam nbs to my knowledge on the majority of the system. Does that tell you something? Perhaps. But don't take my word for it there are others that have direct experience that will take a similar line. All I can say is that I have been directly behind a wide beam nb in a lock where the locky was blasé and saw the extremely alarmed (master of understatement...he was sh1tting himself ) look on the skipper's face and his wife as they struggled to control the boat against the incoming flow, struggling to hold the ropes on the nb style dollies while the boat was being swept violently across the lock. That is not imagination, nor exaggeration. When you been there you might be slightly less gung ho about the difficulties involved with the design. Enjoy the French canals in whatever craft you wish by all means but realise that some craft are much more suited than others.

Roger

 

as i said - the same as the UK system then

[JDR]

Yep. Let's start a list:

 

Widebeam Vs Narrowboat

Pumpout Vs cassette

Ecofans: love Vs hate

 

 

Damn. I've run out already. There are LOADS surely!

Can't really say I've noticed any except perhaps for Morsos vs every other stove ever built, central heating pumps vs gravity systems,cruiser stern vs trad, trad vs semi-trad, pram hood vs in the elements, vinyl vs signwriting, wood vs steel, open holds vs under-cloth conversions, mooring with breast lines vs springs, rond anchors vs pins, fenders down vs fenders up, portholes vs windows, wet lead acid batts vs sealed, 12v vs 24v, 12v/24v vs 240v, combi chargers vs seperates, online moorings vs marinas, online (towpath) moorings vs online (offside) moorings, engine vs genny charging, epoxy vs blacking and tug deck vs well deck. Complete agreement all round!

Edited October 14, 2012 by JDR

[Biggles]

 

There are no hire bases hiring out wide beam nbs to my knowledge on the majority of the system. Does that tell you something?

Roger

 

 

Wrong.......... Minervois Cruisers

[Guest]

Wrong.......... Minervois Cruisers

 

You beat me to it.

[Athy]

You beat me to it.

...and me (well, I wasn't yet up at 5.14 a.m.) But I think that Minervois Cruisers (part of Napton Narrowboats) are the only ones, so Albion is accurate in stating that you don't find them on the majority of the system.

Minervois have, I think, both widebeam narrowboats and actual narrow narrowboats. We cruised on the Canal du Midi on one of the latter a few years ago as we were considering buying it as a sponsored boat. I have to say that it was not ideal in the quite large locks - the gunwales were way too low.

[Kiwipeter]

Wrong.......... Minervois Cruisers

 

Roger did say on the majority of the canals. Minervois is a very small firm operating on one section of canal (Midi/Garonne) and they certainly don't operate off it.

 

The move of this topic off narrowbeam vs widebeam is my fault - as I thought Dutch barges should be considered as well, especially if the OP was considering cruising in Europe. It was not meant to denigrate wide beams which have their place - which IMO isn't in Europe unless you are content to potter up and down one of the smaller and quieter canals. This is not to say they can't travel further, some do, but they are certainly not best suited for that.

 

Peter

[Guest]

...and me (well, I wasn't yet up at 5.14 a.m.) But I think that Minervois Cruisers (part of Napton Narrowboats) are the only ones, so Albion is accurate in stating that you don't find them on the majority of the system.

Minervois have, I think, both widebeam narrowboats and actual narrow narrowboats. We cruised on the Canal du Midi on one of the latter a few years ago as we were considering buying it as a sponsored boat. I have to say that it was not ideal in the quite large locks - the gunwales were way too low.

 

Early morning 'taxi' run as a favour to daughter.

 

My understanding from Roger's post is that the issue is the width of the gunwales, so I'm a bit confused now as you seem to be saying it's the amount of free-board, which to me doesn't look a lot different to what you see on some of the GRP hire boats out there.

Edited October 15, 2012 by The Dog House

[Athy]

Martin, it's a few years go now (about 2005) but I do recall that, when ascending locks, the design of the lock gates and/ or mechanism made it nigh on impossible for a crew member to get off before the lock and walk with the rope as the boat entered the lock. Thus I had to throw the rope up to the waiting Mrs. A. if there was no lock keeper, which there wasn't always. I had to do this from the rear deck (same height as the gunwales). The locks being deep, it took up to three attempts to do this successfully. Most of the GRP cruisers on the Midi (which I assume were usually hire boats) had a much higher steering position and/ or side deck, making the manoeuvre easier. I also recall that when the locks were full the water came up to within two or three feet of ground level, as opposed to a few inches as it does in most UK locks.

For me, the ideal French cruising boat would probably be a GRP craft with tiller steering, as I really don't like wheel steering, but I don't suppose that there are any.

[Guest]

Martin, it's a few years go now (about 2005) but I do recall that, when ascending locks, the design of the lock gates and/ or mechanism made it nigh on impossible for a crew member to get off before the lock and walk with the rope as the boat entered the lock. Thus I had to throw the rope up to the waiting Mrs. A. if there was no lock keeper, which there wasn't always. I had to do this from the rear deck (same height as the gunwales). The locks being deep, it took up to three attempts to do this successfully. Most of the GRP cruisers on the Midi (which I assume were usually hire boats) had a much higher steering position and/ or side deck, making the manoeuvre easier. I also recall that when the locks were full the water came up to within two or three feet of ground level, as opposed to a few inches as it does in most UK locks.

For me, the ideal French cruising boat would probably be a GRP craft with tiller steering, as I really don't like wheel steering, but I don't suppose that there are any.

 

I guess then that it would be easier to climb on the roof to 'hoik' the rope up, though yes of course this carries a risk.

 

Looking again it's interesting that the wide beam (not the NB) that Minervois have -

 

 

Is not to a standard UK design and does have a much higher steering position, akin to what you see on GRP cruisers...

[Athy]

I could not climb on to the roof as I was steering the boat into the lock at the time. That's how the rope, when Mrs. A. could not gather it, fell back into the water and almost instantaeously wound itself round the prop, stopping the engine.

That's when I learned to put the engine in neutral before throwing the rope!

 

Yes, the Minervois widebeam (we saw one when we were down there) is a compromise, based on narrowboat design but making good use of the greater loading gauge, or air draught or whatever, on the Midi. Mind you, some of the bridges are fairly low, we saw a former commercial peniche working unloaded through one and the fit was astightasthis.

[Biggles]

There is always the roof option, or the center rope offered up on a boat hook, a tracer rope with a soft weight attached. Center rope is of course too short to reach the prop.

 

These things just need thinking about a bit.