John Deere Engine blocks

[dmr]

Three Cylinder engines of any make can shake the boat quite a bit, but if its really bad then something is wrong.

There were some issues with breathing/oil consumption on early engines, but I thought Beta had these sorted on the more recent engines.

The JD3 is very efficient so its possible that its running much too cold when battery charging: any thermostat leakage can result in serious over-cooling. Have you got a temperature gauge?

With the engine hot and on idle, remove the oil filler cap and put your hand 1/2 inch above the filler hole..you should just feel the engine "breathing". Much more than this, or obvious smoke, and there is a ring/bore issue.

 

..........Dave

[mrsmelly]

Didn't know they made any themselves, I was assuming that all their engines were marinised by a third party and re-badged. Thanks for the info. You don't happen to know the model nos do you?

 

Hi

 

Been too busy for the last couple of days to do much Forum work, any way no problem I will be on that relevant boat in a few days and will check the units out for you. They are four cylinder and rated down to 90 hp each with plenty of grunt. Ill get you the low down

 

Tim

[dmr]

This one has done about 500 hours, I have reduced the oil consumption with an oil separator and changing where the breather is connected to. It still produces a good plume of blue smoke when sat idling or charging batteries

 

And shakes your fillings out

 

Richard

 

As long as it was run in correctly there should be zero oil consumption.

Its worth talking to Neil at Beta as I believe they have done some changes to the breather pick up location.

If there is a ring issue due to bad running in then you may have excessive crankcase pressure which could be a factor in the breather issue.

Do try feeling the engine "breathing" over the oil filler (its not messy...No oil should come flying out!!!!).

The engine can produce some grey smoke, especially at light load, and this can look very similar to blue smoke.

 

At 500 hours the engine is barely run-in. Do you know if a proper running in was done?.

An engine needs a good work-out early on to bed in the rings/bores. I do not know how much of this is done at the John Deere factory.

It might be too late but you could put in some API CC oil or similar and give the engine a good thrash at full load. This is best done tied up in a lock with nobody about.

A temperature guage is a really good thing to have. My JD3 will not always get up to temperature just charging the batteries in winter. It needs a few revs and a bit of travel power + immersion heater/washing machine to warm things up.

 

............Dave

[nebulae]

Re comment about older engine being based on a Fordson Dexta/Perkins engine.From memory the Massey Fegusson 35(late model) and 135 use the same engine.I seem to remember the main difference was the Dexta used a rotary pump,the Massey an in line.Might help to know this if you are looking for a cheap replacement engine.

[RLWP]

The connection from the breather to the manifold has been changed now as it makes too high a vacuum. Instead, there is now a separator and a pipe into the neck of the air inlet.

 

I don't know the history of the running in, except it was likely to have been fairly gentle knowing the owner

 

Richard

[Richard T]

Ford Dexter's bring back memories - learnt to drive tractors on one as well as a parrafin (TVO) Major!! My old man always swore by the Dexter for ploughing - he said it was much better than a Major. The old major was a sod to drive with a steel wheel on the nearside front to avoid punctures when hedge cutting!!

Going back on topic the BD3 sound varies according to the silencer - Trackman has one in Chateau Neuf with a silencer fitted by Les Wilson - it can be a bit loud but it doers have a lot of torque.

[larkshall]

As long as it was run in correctly there should be zero oil consumption.

Its worth talking to Neil at Beta as I believe they have done some changes to the breather pick up location.

If there is a ring issue due to bad running in then you may have excessive crankcase pressure which could be a factor in the breather issue.

Do try feeling the engine "breathing" over the oil filler (its not messy...No oil should come flying out!!!!).

The engine can produce some grey smoke, especially at light load, and this can look very similar to blue smoke.

 

At 500 hours the engine is barely run-in. Do you know if a proper running in was done?.

An engine needs a good work-out early on to bed in the rings/bores. I do not know how much of this is done at the John Deere factory.

It might be too late but you could put in some API CC oil or similar and give the engine a good thrash at full load. This is best done tied up in a lock with nobody about.

A temperature guage is a really good thing to have. My JD3 will not always get up to temperature just charging the batteries in winter. It needs a few revs and a bit of travel power + immersion heater/washing machine to warm things up.

 

............Dave

 

 

One of the problems with this engine was a tendency to glaze the bores. This was often shown up after a few hours light usage say when using the PTO only. The cure (according to JD and many of the local farmers), was to put a 3 furrow plough on and give it a good thrash by 3-4 hours ploughing. It seems to work though

[mrsmelly]

- Trackman has one in Chateau Neuf with a silencer fitted by Les Wilson - it can be a bit loud but it doers have a lot of torque.

 

Funny you should say that, but when I passed him last week I thought " Thats a bit noisey " I dont remember most boats but the name being distintive made me remember that one.

 

Tim

[trackman]

To avoid people being confused I must say Richard T suffered a slip of the fingers, mine's a JD3! He's right about the special silencer (I think an old gas bottle may be involved but have never bothered to strip the glass tape off to check). Whatever, it's not really noisy unless I give it a bit of a thrashing, which I try to do when on the river as I too believe these engines need to be worked hard now and again to reduce the tendency to be smoky.

 

As for the oil consumption issue, mine barely uses any between oil changes and never has. It does smoke a bit, especially if we've been moored up and used the engine for a lot of battery charging. I always put the Travelpower on when charging the batteries, switch on the immersion and plug in any other mains chargers available. We also try to charge batteries when we are going to use the toaster! Anything to add load to the beast to minimise the risk of glazing the bores and such.

 

Incidentally, when in early days with the boat I spoke to Neil at Beta about the JD3 being a bit smoky, he blamed our boat's builder for fitting a slightly larger prop (22 square) than they recommend for the engine. I don't know who's right about that one, but the engine has never shown any other problems to do with the prop size, and it's b****y useful having a chunky prop when stopping in a hurry and when on the rivers.

 

We reckon it's a damn good engine, and have never had any trouble with it. Beta have always been very helpful (Neil even offered to pick me up from the boat by car once when we were on the G&S near them and I called about cycling over to collect a spare belt for the Travelpower). PRM have been very helpful too, sending a gasket and oil seal in the post free when I needed them. RLWP, I reckon you have been unlucky!

 

 

[RLWP]

<snip> RLWP, I reckon you have been unlucky!

 

Not my engine, or my boat

 

How is your engine mounted, and is it in an 'engine room'?

 

Richard

[dmr]

The connection from the breather to the manifold has been changed now as it makes too high a vacuum. Instead, there is now a separator and a pipe into the neck of the air inlet.

 

I don't know the history of the running in, except it was likely to have been fairly gentle knowing the owner

 

Richard

 

We met a boat recently (Piston Broke?) with a very nice JD3 installation. He had experienced a similar issue with high vacuum and removed his air cleaner and raised his now open air intake to be out of harm (and dog hairs) way.

Mine works fine as standard but we have the older style of metal air filter.

I am not sure about taking the breather to the air cleaner (dirty side?). Will this not mean that any oil mist that does get past the separator will go into the air filter element?.

I still think you should do my simple test for excess crankcase pressure.

Also as long as the breather pick up pipe is not in the oil spray a bit of extra vacuum should not really be an issue

I believe that the JD3 needs to work VERY hard from time to time. Its a very big engine and spending all its life at light load, and at lower speeds than John Deere intended, is not good for it.

 

........Dave

 

One of the problems with this engine was a tendency to glaze the bores. This was often shown up after a few hours light usage say when using the PTO only. The cure (according to JD and many of the local farmers), was to put a 3 furrow plough on and give it a good thrash by 3-4 hours ploughing. It seems to work though

 

Bore Glazing is an interesting issue!!!!!

I am not totally convinced that the JD3 is prone to it, though as it runs at light load and is not always as hot as it should be, then it is a concern.

Beta and Morris's both recommend a "CG4" oil rather than a "CC". Assuming they know there stuff then I would have thought this suggests they feel bore glazing is an issue, especially as Morris's sell a "CC" oil for canal boats.

Whether or not there is a glazing issue it makes lots of sense to give the engine a real thrash every couple of months.

 

We have done 3000+ hours on our replacement JD3, including lots of liveaboard battery charging, and its still zero oil consumption.

 

..........Dave

[dmr]

To avoid people being confused I must say Richard T suffered a slip of the fingers, mine's a JD3! He's right about the special silencer (I think an old gas bottle may be involved but have never bothered to strip the glass tape off to check). Whatever, it's not really noisy unless I give it a bit of a thrashing, which I try to do when on the river as I too believe these engines need to be worked hard now and again to reduce the tendency to be smoky.

 

As for the oil consumption issue, mine barely uses any between oil changes and never has. It does smoke a bit, especially if we've been moored up and used the engine for a lot of battery charging. I always put the Travelpower on when charging the batteries, switch on the immersion and plug in any other mains chargers available. We also try to charge batteries when we are going to use the toaster! Anything to add load to the beast to minimise the risk of glazing the bores and such.

 

Incidentally, when in early days with the boat I spoke to Neil at Beta about the JD3 being a bit smoky, he blamed our boat's builder for fitting a slightly larger prop (22 square) than they recommend for the engine. I don't know who's right about that one, but the engine has never shown any other problems to do with the prop size, and it's b****y useful having a chunky prop when stopping in a hurry and when on the rivers.

 

We reckon it's a damn good engine, and have never had any trouble with it. Beta have always been very helpful (Neil even offered to pick me up from the boat by car once when we were on the G&S near them and I called about cycling over to collect a spare belt for the Travelpower). PRM have been very helpful too, sending a gasket and oil seal in the post free when I needed them. RLWP, I reckon you have been unlucky!

 

I also think its a very good engine. If it sounded a little nicer it would be perfect.

Not sure about the black smoke explanation.

We are just a touch over-propped at 21 by 20. We get black smoke when we go flat out, especially when not fully warmed up, but in normal use its so far off full load the bigger prop should not be a factor.

I suspect its just poor combustion due to very light load/lowish operating temperature.

22 square is a big prop, do you struggle getting a low cruising speed for close manoeuvring? ours is only just slow enough

 

>>>>> note that flat out is emergency stops and steering the bends on the Cherwell yesterday...we go very slowly normally!!!!!

 

.........Dave

[dmr]

The connection from the breather to the manifold has been changed now as it makes too high a vacuum. Instead, there is now a separator and a pipe into the neck of the air inlet.

 

I don't know the history of the running in, except it was likely to have been fairly gentle knowing the owner

 

Richard

 

Rather a lot of JD posts from me today. At a loose end waiting till Osney lock becomes navigable!

 

I do not understand this vacuum issue. I have just popped the breather pipe off my JD3, its doing about 800rpm charging batteries/running the washing machine. There is almost no vacuum in the intake manifold. Surely this is how it should be, modern air cleaners should be designed to provide minimal airflow restriction. We have the old metal cased air cleaner. Does the new plastic one have a problem? Is your air cleaner full of dog hairs????

Are you sure you are not confusing high crankcase pressure with manifold vacuum?

Have you spoken to Neil at Beta about this?????

 

........Dave

[larkshall]

We met a boat recently (Piston Broke?) with a very nice JD3 installation. He had experienced a similar issue with high vacuum and removed his air cleaner and raised his now open air intake to be out of harm (and dog hairs) way.

Mine works fine as standard but we have the older style of metal air filter.

I am not sure about taking the breather to the air cleaner (dirty side?). Will this not mean that any oil mist that does get past the separator will go into the air filter element?.

I still think you should do my simple test for excess crankcase pressure.

Also as long as the breather pick up pipe is not in the oil spray a bit of extra vacuum should not really be an issue

I believe that the JD3 needs to work VERY hard from time to time. Its a very big engine and spending all its life at light load, and at lower speeds than John Deere intended, is not good for it.

 

........Dave

 

 

 

Bore Glazing is an interesting issue!!!!!

I am not totally convinced that the JD3 is prone to it, though as it runs at light load and is not always as hot as it should be, then it is a concern.

Beta and Morris's both recommend a "CG4" oil rather than a "CC". Assuming they know there stuff then I would have thought this suggests they feel bore glazing is an issue, especially as Morris's sell a "CC" oil for canal boats.

Whether or not there is a glazing issue it makes lots of sense to give the engine a real thrash every couple of months.

 

We have done 3000+ hours on our replacement JD3, including lots of liveaboard battery charging, and its still zero oil consumption.

 

..........Dave

I can assure it does, mind in its proper environment (a tractor), it will spend hours a tad above tickover when using the PTO to power implements. I don't know what size sump you have on them in the marine environment, but they have a 17.3 litre sump on tractors. They need the throat clearing after that. In fact they really come into their own on heavy ground work. I took one down at 35,000 hours, and the bores where glazed like chrome mirrors. Mind other than that all we had to do was new rings new shells mains and big ends, new rings and valves. (The latter mostly because we had it apart), and that same engine is now at 47,750 hrs.

[RLWP]

<snip>

Have you spoken to Neil at Beta about this?????

 

........Dave

 

The owner has. This engine has it's breather take-off on the manifold almost directly opposite #2 cylinder. JD introduced a different something (either air filter or breather location) to meet new emissions regulations, resulting in a higher manifold vacuum. Neil's suggestion was that this connection was moved to a lower vacuum spot.

 

I spent a couple of days messing about with this engine and it's breathers - including 'feeling' the blow-by from the filler cap - and trying different hose configurations. The best lash-up included a large loop of hose to allow any entrapped oil droplets to fall out of the air leaving the engine. I have since replaced this with a separator and a new hose

 

We're getting a bit bogged down in detail here. In my opinion, what is sold as a modern 'vintage' engine to put in your engine room is actually rough, noisy and inclined to smoke

 

Richard

[dmr]

I can assure it does, mind in its proper environment (a tractor), it will spend hours a tad above tickover when using the PTO to power implements. I don't know what size sump you have on them in the marine environment, but they have a 17.3 litre sump on tractors. They need the throat clearing after that. In fact they really come into their own on heavy ground work. I took one down at 35,000 hours, and the bores where glazed like chrome mirrors. Mind other than that all we had to do was new rings new shells mains and big ends, new rings and valves. (The latter mostly because we had it apart), and that same engine is now at 47,750 hrs.

 

Wow, if mine lasts 35000 hours I will be doing the rebuild when I am 77 years old.

JD3 has a 6 litre sump.

Beta say a 450rpm tickover, (though mine will do 390) which I think is a fair bit lower than John Deere intended.

The John Deere manuals do forbid extended use at tickover!

 

Stripped my last one at 7000 hours. Bores had no glazing, all original honing marks on lower two thirds, but huge wear at top of bores plus 7mm (yes) ring gaps.

However this engine had obviously eaten a lot of metal at some time in its life, which is why we had to replace it.

I believe there are two variants of the 3029, both known as the 3029, the "classic" and the newer "powertec" and I suspect the newer one has better bore technology, but I am far from sure about this.

After 35,000 hours yours will be the older version!

 

JD3 always feels a lot happier when its working hard.

 

..........Dave

[Athy]

In my opinion, what is sold as a modern 'vintage' engine to put in your engine room is actually rough, noisy and inclined to smoke

 

Richard

 

....which brings it nicely into line with many genuine vintage engines, and with some of their owners.

[dmr]

....which brings it nicely into line with many genuine vintage engines, and with some of their owners.

 

The JD3 is not a proper vintage engine otherwise it would also be temperamental, overweight and slightly greasy!!

 

.......Dave

[Athy]

The JD3 is not a proper vintage engine otherwise it would also be temperamental, overweight and slightly greasy!!

 

.......Dave

Green thing ahoy.

 

I should change your appearance before venturing past any vintage engine-powered boats whose owners are on board, though.

[dmr]

The owner has. This engine has it's breather take-off on the manifold almost directly opposite #2 cylinder. JD introduced a different something (either air filter or breather location) to meet new emissions regulations, resulting in a higher manifold vacuum. Neil's suggestion was that this connection was moved to a lower vacuum spot.

 

I spent a couple of days messing about with this engine and it's breathers - including 'feeling' the blow-by from the filler cap - and trying different hose configurations. The best lash-up included a large loop of hose to allow any entrapped oil droplets to fall out of the air leaving the engine. I have since replaced this with a separator and a new hose

 

We're getting a bit bogged down in detail here. In my opinion, what is sold as a modern 'vintage' engine to put in your engine room is actually rough, noisy and inclined to smoke

 

Richard

 

Some modern automotive diesels have a throttle. I would be extremely surprised if the JD3 does this but I suppose it is just possible that there is an intentional restriction of some kind in the air cleaner. If so maybe you could get rid of it. I suspect Beta would not be allowed to recommend a change that is intended to limit emissions, but if you are making clouds of blue smoke then that's not good for the environment either.

 

........Dave

[trackman]

Couldn't find this thread last night so I owe a couple of people some answers now I have it again.

 

In reply to Richard, Chateau Neuf's JD3 is in an engine room and, as was usual with traditional engines I believe, it's mounted directly onto hardwood bearers sat upon steel supports welded to the baseplate. No resilience in the supports apart from the very small amount there may be in some fairly hefty bits of hardwood.

 

As regards Dave's enquiry about the prop size, our set-up seems fine for slow speed manouvering, with a tickover speed of about 480 rpm. We get no more shouts of "slow down" than we used to on a previous boat with a BMC 1.8 and a much smaller prop, and CN is much deeper draughted. I think those few moans we do get are more to do with the sound than our speed. If I really rev the engine to the max, which usually only happens if the prop runs out of water due to shallows or mud, the engine will lay down a good smoke screen, but under power in deep water there doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

I still reckon the owner of the engine Richard is dealing with has been unlucky to get an engine that has problems for some reason, ours is really good. Perhaps theirs has been run in badly or abused by a past owner, or is just a bad example.

 

 

[George94]

Three Cylinder engines of any make can shake the boat quite a bit, but if its really bad then something is wrong.

There were some issues with breathing/oil consumption on early engines, but I thought Beta had these sorted on the more recent engines.

The JD3 is very efficient so its possible that its running much too cold when battery charging: any thermostat leakage can result in serious over-cooling. Have you got a temperature gauge?

With the engine hot and on idle, remove the oil filler cap and put your hand 1/2 inch above the filler hole..you should just feel the engine "breathing". Much more than this, or obvious smoke, and there is a ring/bore issue.

 

..........Dave

 

Three cylinder engines are generally quiet and well-balanced.

[dmr]

Well my JD3 is loud and certainly shakes the boat a bit.

I believe a 3 produces vibration at both its rotational speed (frequency) and also 1-1/2 times its rotational speed, but I have not done this stuff for a while so will need to have a think about it. Not sure if the rotational frequency stuff is significant on lower revving engines.

Also does a 3 not sound a bit more "busy" because you can hear the piston stuff on the non-firing TDC ???? (could be talking out of my bottom here)

This will all need to wait (assuming anyone is even remotely interested that is!) as if there's no rain tonight the next few days will be taken up going down the Thames and up the Kennet!!!!

 

...........Dave

[RichardH]

My understanding was the JD in JD3 stood for John Deere?

[larkshall]

My understanding was the JD in JD3 stood for John Deere?

 

 

It does.

 

Oh on whether the JD3 is/isn't a vintage engine, well in tractor terms its a classic engine not vintage as in Fordson, or Field Marshall. Now if you want vibration, try one of those for size !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!