Most efficient/economical heating fuel for living-on

[jckm2000]

Hi Folks,

I've just bought myself a new boat, 70ft X 6.10. It's fitted with a little Boatman stove and an Alde gas central heating boiler.

The stove is nice but won't heat the whole boat. So I'm looking at getting something bigger. Or am I? I'm toying with the idea of fitting a Reflex

diesel burner with back boiler (or similar). Sounds great but would I be just as well off using the Alde?

 

If I used the 47kg Gas cylinders would the Alde be more cost effective than a new diesel burner or bigger multi burning coal/wood? We do have a

locker big enough to store a tonne of coal so we could buy in summer.

 

We're marina-bound for the next 18 months or so but will eventually be on a riverbank mooring with no shore power so 'leccy consumption is also an issue.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Cheers,

 

C.

[ditchcrawler]

Hi Folks,

I've just bought myself a new boat, 70ft X 6.10. It's fitted with a little Boatman stove and an Alde gas central heating boiler.

The stove is nice but won't heat the whole boat. So I'm looking at getting something bigger. Or am I? I'm toying with the idea of fitting a Reflex

diesel burner with back boiler (or similar). Sounds great but would I be just as well off using the Alde?

 

If I used the 47kg Gas cylinders would the Alde be more cost effective than a new diesel burner or bigger multi burning coal/wood? We do have a

locker big enough to store a tonne of coal so we could buy in summer.

 

We're marina-bound for the next 18 months or so but will eventually be on a riverbank mooring with no shore power so 'leccy consumption is also an issue.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Cheers,

 

C.

You will need a big gas locker for that cylinder

[Robbo]

What about adding another boatman stove at the other end?

[Arthur Brown]

In a marina coal may be antisocial filling other boats with fumes -smokeless would be better. Anywhere you go it's a hard life now without any electricity -even the web is electric! So you will need some electricity generation and storage, while you may like to minimis this, don't eliminate it completely, so you could have a boiler control system quite easily.

[Robbo]

For diesel vs solid fuel stove's, I would go for the one you prefer, there very similar in cost to run unless you can get free wood, but diesel has the control, you can run it 24/7 with no effort, etc. A real fire is a real fire though! If you've already got radiators what about a diesel boiler (like the Bubble PJ) for background heating?

[jckm2000]

I'm not too worried about having an electicity free heating system, just wanted to know cost per calor, which is cheapest.

 

Is it worth the extra expence of a new bigger multi or diesel heater or should I go with what I've got?

 

Someone told me the Alde will use alot of gas, that last time I filled a 47kg they were quite a bit more reasonable than the 13s.

[JDR]

I've never seen 47kg propane bottles for sale at canalside/riverside locations.The commonest size in use is 13kg.I have one full bottle and one empty in seperate lockers, with the regulator connected to one bottle.Some people have a switchover mechanism.For cooking only one 13kg bottle at up to £25 a pop lasts me 4-5 months.For heating in the depths of winter you could get through a couple of bottles a week (£45-50) compared to somewhere between two to three sacks of coal (£20-30). Have you thought about a backboiler for stove powering one or two rads using a leccy free gravity/convection system? You could still use gas as a boost while waiting for rads to heat up but expensive for full time use.

[jckm2000]

I've never seen 47kg propane bottles for sale at canalside/riverside locations.The commonest size in use is 13kg.I have one full bottle and one empty in seperate lockers, with the regulator connected to one bottle.Some people have a switchover mechanism.For cooking only one 13kg bottle at up to £25 a pop lasts me 4-5 months.For heating in the depths of winter you could get through a couple of bottles a week (£45-50) compared to somewhere between two to three sacks of coal (£20-30). Have you thought about a backboiler for stove powering one or two rads using a leccy free gravity/convection system? You could still use gas as a boost while waiting for rads to heat up but expensive for full time use.

 

That's my original plan. Problem is I doubt the little Boatman will provide enough oomph to power a rad or two effectivley at the other end of the boat. I was thinking that a bigger wood/coal burner supported with half an hours gas burning in the morning and at bed time would do the trick but I'm not sure if that's the most econimical way to go. On my yacht I have a Wallas diesel powered blown air heater and always wished it were a Refleks type boiler instead....

 

C.

Edited January 22, 2012 by jckm2000

[JDR]

Sounds like you are trying to rationalise purchasing the Refleks to me! Would you still have room for the Boatman in the back of the boat? If you did that would give you three seperate methods of heating the boat which has to be good.

[GSer]

I have an Effing range in the back cabin, and that on its own will warm that area, the engine room and perhaps 10' of the main cabin, then i have another 3.5kw stove fitted centrally in the remaining area, with both going the boat is very warm and costs me between 40 & 60 kilos of taybright a week (£25), my old boat used an alde for central heating and also had a 3.5kw stove. Again a very warm boat but it used 40kilo (£16) of coal plus a bottle of gas a week (£25).

 

The new set up feels much cheaper to run, but i don't have endless hot water as with the alde, hot water now comes via 2 x 1kw immersion heaters that run from the generator when i'm charging batteries, or from the engine when cruising.

 

 

As a supplimentary heater in the new boat i may fit a deisel heater (a hurricane probably) but i'm a bit concerned with running costs , a local guy using a deisel heater is spending £16-£20 a day to keep his boat warm and the cost of a hurricane is a little salty for what will basically be just a backup.

 

Good luck

 

Paul

[jelunga]

We are in a marina with electric hook up. We have a diesel bubble stove, for space heating fitted in the front of the saloon. There is an Eberspacher to heat hot water and run fin rads down the stbd side of the boat. We also have an electric convector 2kw.

In the last month we have used about 85L of fuel in heating the boat and hot water and about £25/ month on elect used for lighting, battery charging, a little heating and microwave, PC, TV etc.

My thought is diesel is clean to use, easy and clean to store, and easy to obtain at the moment. It does however seem expensive to use. Gas heating will be more expensive.

I have no experience of solid fuel. However it is bulky to store and dirty to use. No idea on cost.

I do not know the "best". It is what is best fir you. I prefer the diesel because it is clean, controllable and you can shop around for the best price. LPG I do not like because the price is fixed by Calor, and humping 13kg cylinders in and out of the gas locker does not fill me with glee.

Solid fuel doesnt do it for me but each to their own

 

I have an Effing range in the back cabin, and that on its own will warm that area, the engine room and perhaps 10' of the main cabin, then i have another 3.5kw stove fitted centrally in the remaining area, with both going the boat is very warm and costs me between 40 & 60 kilos of taybright a week (£25), my old boat used an alde for central heating and also had a 3.5kw stove. Again a very warm boat but it used 40kilo (£16) of coal plus a bottle of gas a week (£25).

 

The new set up feels much cheaper to run, but i don't have endless hot water as with the alde, hot water now comes via 2 x 1kw immersion heaters that run from the generator when i'm charging batteries, or from the engine when cruising.

 

 

As a supplimentary heater in the new boat i may fit a deisel heater (a hurricane probably) but i'm a bit concerned with running costs , a local guy using a deisel heater is spending £16-£20 a day to keep his boat warm and the cost of a hurricane is a little salty for what will basically be just a backup.

 

Good luck

 

Paul

[/quote

£16 a DAY??? I thought our fuel bill was high. He must be miscalculating or something. Even our combined Bubble / Eberspacher set up costs about £3.50 a day max. And we are not stinting to the extent we keep the bubble on with open door sometimes.

[KevMc]

I have a Refleks and it keep the saloon warm on its lowest setting but it can be epxensive to run. I leave it on constantly and I'm getting through about 40-50 litres a week at the moment. If it gets colder I am sure it will have to be turned up a bit. The back boiler doesn't get the rads very hot but keeps them on the high end of warm.

[Proper Job]

Gas - expensive, a cyclinder will not last very long. Humping cylinders around

Diesel - Less expensive (?), convenient, can be problematic (dependant on system)

Solid fuel - Probably the cheapest (definately if 'free' wood), smokey/dusty, humping coal/wood around

[nicknorman]

If cost is an issue I would go for solid fuel, but best to use smokeless "ovals" of some sort. It does not burn "smokeless", but with "less smoke" than coal and seems more controllable, easier to keep glass clean etc. Our squirrel stays in for long periods when ticking over, overnight is easy and normally on the last day of a trip we struggle to get the stove to go out despite not having refuelled it for 24 hrs.

 

On the other hand, if you have plenty of money, a dislike for dirt and desire for hands-off heating, diesel may be better. Gas is clean but more expensive and have you thought how you would get a 47 kg cylinder onto the boat and store it?

[Grace and Favour]

We have a widebeam, so more space to heat . . .

When in our winter moorings (with shore-power)

Use a Morso Squirrel for heat, and keep it lit 24/7 during the winter

1Kg Immersion in for hot water

Both Electricity and Gas for cooking

 

I keep an accurate record of running costs (I'm a spreadsheet bore!)

(These are October to today running costs) -

1 bottle Gas is £25 for 5 months

Electricity (TV, washing machine/dryer, lights etc etc) 92p per day

Smokeless fuel £1.45 day

Dried timber (various types) (just for extra heat during the colder days) 40p per day

[GSer]

£16 a DAY??? I thought our fuel bill was high. He must be miscalculating or something. Even our combined Bubble / Eberspacher set up costs about £3.50 a day max. And we are not stinting to the extent we keep the bubble on with open door sometimes.

 

 

I'm not qoing to question him, he has two diesel drip fed stoves, each burns 6-9 litres a day. Seemed possible to me?

[real_vibes]

We have a squirrel with back boiler and 3 rads and nothing else for warmth. This mild winter has only cost us £50 in coal so far and a bit of time foraging for seasoned timber.

 

We have a morse for water and cooking and this uses a 13kg in 3-4 weeks.

[Penny Black]

We have a widebeam, so more space to heat . . .

When in our winter moorings (with shore-power)

Use a Morso Squirrel for heat, and keep it lit 24/7 during the winter

1Kg Immersion in for hot water

Both Electricity and Gas for cooking

 

I keep an accurate record of running costs (I'm a spreadsheet bore!)

(These are October to today running costs) -

1 bottle Gas is £25 for 5 months

Electricity (TV, washing machine/dryer, lights etc etc) 92p per day

Smokeless fuel £1.45 day

Dried timber (various types) (just for extra heat during the colder days) 40p per day

 

Grace and Favour,

 

I've just bought a boat with similar set-up (widebeam, morso stove, electric immersion...). It also has an 8yr old Eberspacher boiler but judging by the endless problems the previous owner had with it, and by the endless problems a lot of boaters seem to have with these and similar boilers, I am loathe to start spending money on it or a diesel replacement. I'm happy with the mess/effort of solid fuel and love a real fire. One question - will the morso really heat the whole boat? It's in the far corner of open-plan salloon on a 60 x 10, furthest away from bedroom/bathroom; I just can't see the heat making it all the way through. I've thought about a simple electric oil-filled radiator in the bedroom but know these can be expensive. Or, sleep on the sofa bed in salloon in the winter, in front of the stove...

 

Would be very interested to hear your experience. Any advice appreciated!

 

Thanks.

[dor]

Is your Alde a 2928 (narrow upright) or the newer 3010? If the latter, running costs are comparable to diesel. But best is to use solid fuel stove - something like a squirrel - and use the CH as a top-up in the morning or to heat up the hot water.

[lesrollins]

I thought about taking the diesel bubble corner stove out of the boat and replacing it with a s/f stove with a back boiler. But when I weighed up the cost and work, around £600 - £ 700 for a squirrel stove, £200 for a circulation pump, pipework, tiles in toilet where I would have needed to remove to join pipework. It all adds up to a lot of money and work, then you need somewhere to store the coal and wood. And besides wood is usually only free if you collect it, saw it and chop it yourself.

With our boat being fitted with its own diesel tank for the fire I have thought about using kerosene which I can get for 60p a litre which is about 25p a litre cheaper than red. So I think I will stick to the diesel fire.

[Roger Gunkel]

Grace and Favour,

 

I've just bought a boat with similar set-up (widebeam, morso stove, electric immersion...). It also has an 8yr old Eberspacher boiler but judging by the endless problems the previous owner had with it, and by the endless problems a lot of boaters seem to have with these and similar boilers, I am loathe to start spending money on it or a diesel replacement. I'm happy with the mess/effort of solid fuel and love a real fire. One question - will the morso really heat the whole boat? It's in the far corner of open-plan salloon on a 60 x 10, furthest away from bedroom/bathroom; I just can't see the heat making it all the way through. I've thought about a simple electric oil-filled radiator in the bedroom but know these can be expensive. Or, sleep on the sofa bed in salloon in the winter, in front of the stove...

 

Would be very interested to hear your experience. Any advice appreciated!

 

Thanks.

Our 57'x10' widebeam is heated by a single Evergreen stove which has a similar heat output to a Squirrel. We originally had an Eberspacher fitted when built, that that was unreliable and expensive to maintain and run for our 24/7 liveaboard life. The stove supplies all our heating needs, but that is because we have concentrated on retaining the heat rather than producing more.

 

Most boats suffer from high heat loss compared wih a modern house, even those that are spray foam insulated as ours is. So rather than burning more and more fuel, we completely double glazed our boat, which has large windows, and made sure that areas behind cupboards, under beds etc had plenty of air circulation space and were well insulated. Also sealing hatches and doors properly, as sufficient normal ventilation will come through mushrooms and normal ventilators.

 

The difference over the last couple of years has been amazing, with no cold spots and an even spread of heat, gradually reducing by a few degrees to our bedroom at the far end, which is how we like it.

 

Roger

[Penny Black]

Our 57'x10' widebeam is heated by a single Evergreen stove which has a similar heat output to a Squirrel. We originally had an Eberspacher fitted when built, that that was unreliable and expensive to maintain and run for our 24/7 liveaboard life. The stove supplies all our heating needs, but that is because we have concentrated on retaining the heat rather than producing more.

 

Most boats suffer from high heat loss compared wih a modern house, even those that are spray foam insulated as ours is. So rather than burning more and more fuel, we completely double glazed our boat, which has large windows, and made sure that areas behind cupboards, under beds etc had plenty of air circulation space and were well insulated. Also sealing hatches and doors properly, as sufficient normal ventilation will come through mushrooms and normal ventilators.

 

The difference over the last couple of years has been amazing, with no cold spots and an even spread of heat, gradually reducing by a few degrees to our bedroom at the far end, which is how we like it.

 

Roger

 

Thanks Roger - this is reassuring news indeed! My boat is also spray-foam insulated but there are a few weak spots regarding insulation which I plan to address. Fortunately she has only porthole windows which at first I wasn't too keen on, due to the limited natural light they allow in, but thinking more about the winter and heat loss/condensation I think these are a good feature. The bedroom has wooden doors with two large single-pane windows. I had thought that a thick double-lined curtain would be sufficient but since this will be the cool end of the boat I think it would be pertinent to have these double-glazed. The other weak spot is a glass skylight over the galley, which already drips when it's warm inside. I am thinking of winterising this with a pane of perspex which should significantly reduce heat loss and condensation. Do you have a skylight and if so how is it insulated?

 

We have used the Eberspacher once to test that it worked and it does - in an hour the boat was very warm. However, I want to keep this as a last resort and rely on solid fuel as much as possible. I like the simplicity of the stove - there is nothing really to go wrong. And you are certainly right to focus on insulation rather than increasing the fuel.

 

Another forum member has been telling me about a stainless steel cowling he's had fabricated around his stove and chimney, to reduce heat loss into the tiles/wall behind. Do you have anything to reflect/direct the heat out into the boat (fan, cowling, insulation), or does it simply stand alone?

 

Thanks,

 

Rupert

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Rupert, we don't have a skylight, although the bare steel rear hatch used to get very cold, so we insulated it with foam backed carpet, which made a big difference and stopped condensation on it. There is a thread about condensation in the FAQ section of the forum that you might find useful.

 

Double glazing is straightforward to do yourself using clear acrylic sheet, and there are a number of suppliers that will cut to size and supply at a good price.

 

We don't have any sort of cowl or reflector arround our stove as the fireproof backing and tiles allow the heat to rise normally and circulate through convection. The tiles do absorb heat and become warm, but the sprayfoam on the hull sides retains the heat in the boat anyway, so I can't see that a reflector would make much difference. We do have a 4" computer fan fitted on the ceiling at the start of the passage down the boat, which is left on as long as the stove is alight, basically all Winter, and helps stimulate the movement of the convecting air gently down the passage. Some people use the somewhat expensive ecofan, but personally I feel that air is best moved from the highest point it reaches, rather than the top of the stove where it can spoil the natural convection.

 

Insulated lined curtains will help to retain some heat, but nowhere near as much as DG because they are not sealed, so moist air will still get around or through them, giving condensation on the glass. The air against the glass will still be cold from the outside air, and will drop down by convection below the curtain, giving cold draughts below the windows and round your legs.

 

Its also a good idea to insulate floors, because although warm air rises, there can still be a noticeable loss through the generally uninsulated floor of the boat.

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Roger

[Penny Black]

Hi Rupert, we don't have a skylight, although the bare steel rear hatch used to get very cold, so we insulated it with foam backed carpet, which made a big difference and stopped condensation on it. There is a thread about condensation in the FAQ section of the forum that you might find useful.

 

Double glazing is straightforward to do yourself using clear acrylic sheet, and there are a number of suppliers that will cut to size and supply at a good price.

 

We don't have any sort of cowl or reflector arround our stove as the fireproof backing and tiles allow the heat to rise normally and circulate through convection. The tiles do absorb heat and become warm, but the sprayfoam on the hull sides retains the heat in the boat anyway, so I can't see that a reflector would make much difference. We do have a 4" computer fan fitted on the ceiling at the start of the passage down the boat, which is left on as long as the stove is alight, basically all Winter, and helps stimulate the movement of the convecting air gently down the passage. Some people use the somewhat expensive ecofan, but personally I feel that air is best moved from the highest point it reaches, rather than the top of the stove where it can spoil the natural convection.

 

Insulated lined curtains will help to retain some heat, but nowhere near as much as DG because they are not sealed, so moist air will still get around or through them, giving condensation on the glass. The air against the glass will still be cold from the outside air, and will drop down by convection below the curtain, giving cold draughts below the windows and round your legs.

 

Its also a good idea to insulate floors, because although warm air rises, there can still be a noticeable loss through the generally uninsulated floor of the boat.

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Roger

 

Thanks Roger, certainly does. By 'clear acrylic sheet' do you mean the clingfilm-style stuff that's used sometimes to double-glaze, or something tougher?

 

And yes the floor is another one on my list - it's all tiled at the moment and I know how cold these can get so am on the lookout for some good foam-backed rugs/carpet to cover as much space as possible.

 

Rupert

[Roger Gunkel]

Thanks Roger, certainly does. By 'clear acrylic sheet' do you mean the clingfilm-style stuff that's used sometimes to double-glaze, or something tougher?

 

Rupert

 

The cling film type DG that Wilkinsons and others sell can be very effective if you are on a very tight budget, but the acrylic DG is similar to perspex, looks much better and can be used every year. Here is a link to where we got ours a few years back. ACRYLIC

We used 4mm thick acrylic, fixed to the window frames with self adhesive magnetic strip so that the sheets can be removed for storage or cleaning.

 

Our wide beam has eight 42"x21" windows and the cost when we did it including magnetic strip and cutting to size was about £230, although I'm sure it would have gone up since then.

 

Roger