Second Hand Boats

[Albion]

I'll give my (brief) experience of looking second-hand for a Sagar barge that supports some of the comments already made. We travelled half way down the country to look at a Sagar that was for sale at a reasonable price. We were shown into the boat by a person that the owner had paid £20 per viewing to open up for us but then left us alone. We found a boat that had dirty cupboards, half finished boxes of cereal, a cupboard door hanging slightly on its hinges and lots of the owners clothes still in cupboards. We decided not to buy.

The owner then rang me to ask what we had decided and was most miffed that we had said no. He complained that it was costing him a fortune in the £20 look-round fees to the caretaker due to all the 'time wasters'. I fed back the reasons why we felt the boat wasn't well presented and would put some people off and assured him that we weren't time wasters; we wouldn't have driven half way down the country just to go and kick the tyres after all. His parting shot was that our observations weren't particularly relevant as we were 'getting the boat at a cheap price after all'. His whole attitude was that we should have considered ourselves lucky that it was as good as it was for the price offered. We went on to buy a new Sagar so were definitely not time wasters.

 

On the other hand when we sold Albion privately via the Norton Canes web-site (a beautiful Norton Canes, Gardner 4LK engined trad, immaculately presented and clean. We spent a whole week in a floating dock emptying the boat, cleaning inside and out and touching up paintwork to ready her for sale) we did have some tyre kickers. One couple visited twice making all the right noises and went away, we thought, to think about the offer. When we shortly afterwards did get someone else seriously interested I thought I ought to ring the couple who had visited, because I almost felt that they had first refusal, only to be told that they couldn't have afforded it anyway so wouldn't be offering but had always had a hankering for a Norton Canes boat. We got pretty close to our asking price for Albion in the end but saw aspects of purchasers from the other side as it were.

 

As Dominic has said, correct clean presentation and a realistic price will eventually sell the boat but you might have to endure a few tyre kickers in the process, which is why a broker could be worth their weight in gold (even if it feels as though you are paying them in gold ).

Roger

[MoominPapa]

As a seller, I'd pay attention to preparation, but as a buyer, surely it's best to learn to overlook half-used cereal packets and the current owner's Y-fronts. After all, if you buy the boat, you're allowed to get rid of them, so they make no material difference to your enjoyment of your purchase. If you can make distinction between bad boat and a messy boat, you stand a chance of getting a better bargain because you're not in competition to buy with those who can't.

 

MP.

[Athy]

I wonder about the wisdom of completely emptying a boat before offering it for sale. An empty house is often harder to sell than one which is still furnished, and I think that discreet but tidy signs of habitation ( books on a shelf, kettle on hob, neatly folded towels in bathroom, etc.) may enhance your chance of a quick sale because they impart a touch of homeliness.

However, when looking at s/ hand boats some years ago we encountered sights such as a half-eaten meal on a plate, ashy stove hearth, dishevelled bedclothes, superannuated food in fridge - these aren't homely, just scruffy, and put people off (they put US off anyway). Use your judgement.

[Albion]

As a seller, I'd pay attention to preparation, but as a buyer, surely it's best to learn to overlook half-used cereal packets and the current owner's Y-fronts. After all, if you buy the boat, you're allowed to get rid of them, so they make no material difference to your enjoyment of your purchase. If you can make distinction between bad boat and a messy boat, you stand a chance of getting a better bargain because you're not in competition to buy with those who can't.

 

MP.

 

I'm afraid that I disagree, in that slovenliness in presentation for sale reflects the attitudes of the owners which could then, most likely, have carried through into standards of maintenance and repair. It is just one clue, among the others obvious to the eye, that can tell you things about the boat.

Roger

[Guest]

[off topic]

Having never bought or sold a boat through a broker I can't really comment if this is the case, but your land-based colleagues the estate agents don't seem to approach it this way!! In my experience most are ONLY interested in maximising their commission, and sod the seller (who is their client) if the seller's interests don't coincide with the agents'!!

[/off topic]

 

David

 

Not our experience at all. A good 'broker' will do exactly that and 'broker' the sale, which to me means iron out any potential stumbling blocks to a sale (if any come up) acting and liaising between the buyer and seller and agreeing between both parties a fair price.

 

Admittedly this is only based on the experience of one used boat purchase we have made but if we ever have to sell 'The Dog House' I know who we will be approaching to ask to broker the sale for us.

 

ed to add - and yes as to the original topic I am a big believer in good presentation by sellers, rightly or wrongly we were disauded from considering a number of boats due to the slovenly appearance of a boat. After all if the seller is prepared to be slovenly with what you can see, what does that say about what you can't.

 

We viewed a couple of boats that belonged to live-aboards and both sellers managed to present their boats very well even though they were actually still on the thing when we viewed them. (We also got a cup of tea when we viewed which was a bonus!!)

 

- you wouldn't leave your knickers on show if selling a house so why do it if selling a boat??

Edited January 23, 2012 by MJG

[kiki]

In this vein can I throw another question in - not intending to hijack but will all the advice going /

We are busy just tweaking bits and bobs of Jy Praat Twak before putting photos etc on a couple of places,and I wondered, how much easier is it to sell a boat which is already on a residential mooring - obviulsy taking into account that the buyer would want to live in that particular area. OUr landlord has said that as long as he likes the buyer they could take over our mooring, I am trying to figure out how to word this in an ad as well, without it sounding unfriendly. Advice would be appreciatd - thanks guys.

[Guest]

In this vein can I throw another question in - not intending to hijack but will all the advice going /

We are busy just tweaking bits and bobs of Jy Praat Twak before putting photos etc on a couple of places,and I wondered, how much easier is it to sell a boat which is already on a residential mooring - obviulsy taking into account that the buyer would want to live in that particular area. OUr landlord has said that as long as he likes the buyer they could take over our mooring, I am trying to figure out how to word this in an ad as well, without it sounding unfriendly. Advice would be appreciatd - thanks guys.

 

I would just include something like -

 

'Subject to the agreement of the landowner a residential mooring is available with the sale' you see that quite often in boat listings.

 

There is then no guarantee that the mooring comes with the boat if the landowner is for any reason not happy. I don't think anybody would have to give a reason if he isn't.

[Athy]

"Residential mooring may be available subject to agreement of moorings owner". Don't mention "with the sale" as that COULD be construed as the mooring being included in the sale price. No, I wouldn't think that either, but it's best to make the advert dolt-proof.

[Guest]

"Residential mooring may be available subject to agreement of moorings owner". Don't mention "with the sale" as that COULD be construed as the mooring being included in the sale price. No, I wouldn't think that either, but it's best to make the advert dolt-proof.

 

Good point Mike..

[kiki]

Brilliant one guys, thanks or that. Helped a lot

[BEngo]

If I was interesting in buying or selling a boat I would be interested in an article which :

 

What is the market?

 

State of the market- (Somewhat depressed, but reasonably priced and well-presented boats will sell)

 

Where is it going- nowhere until things pick up and there is confidence in both the economy and C&RT- probably 5 years or so I think)

Clone craft. Weirdos don't sell/re-sell so they need to be cheap and probably will end up as project boats.

Typical price ranges for ex-hire, mid market, good builders etc.

 

A DIRE WARNING about buying Project boats- unless you are 150% comitted the whole thing will go downhill EXPENSIVELY (I reckon about 90& just become a disaster, or are sold-on and become unsavoury low-cost housing).

 

How do I get to market?

Brokers- pros and cons, typical costs, how does it work

Part Ex? Does anyone do this?

Self Sales- Magazine Ads, the Duck, others??

Things to do on each route

Legals- Title, bills of sale, inventories of what the new owner actually gets, how to get/hand-over the money safely

Presentation tips- what puts people off, what helps to sell.

 

How to view?

 

Things to look for. ( What does Dominic look at when assessing a boat before RBS take it on brokerage? What do your surveying friends have in their little black books for the various builders/engines)

 

Surveys-

 

Why to have one, what they cost, how to instruct a Surveyor ( Things you specifically want him to look at- I would base these around things that are either expensive, ora PITA to fix and should IMHO always include starting the engine and an opinion on whether it's in reasonable order, thoughts on the gearbox, a good look at the stern gear, an examination of the general visible condition of electronic gadgets and at least a functional test of any inverters or travelpower widgets, surveyor's valuation).

Handover-

 

What to give the new owner or to expect from the last. (Engine Service information, RCD Documents Bills of Sale, registration documents if SSR or Registered Ship, Owners manuals for the widgets on board, Any peculiarities- like how to start a Kelvin, secret location of the Easy Start tin . Since I did my own fit-out I would be happy to walk a new owner through the hidden details but that is not always possible.)

 

N

Edited January 23, 2012 by BEngo

[Dominic M]

Thank you for all the input. Food for thought.

 

Kiki: I always state something like, "Mooring may be available to buyer by separate negotiation with the mooring operator/mooring owner.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Dominic M

[tillergirl]

 

 

ed to add - and yes as to the original topic I am a big believer in good presentation by sellers, rightly or wrongly we were disauded from considering a number of boats due to the slovenly appearance of a boat. After all if the seller is prepared to be slovenly with what you can see, what does that say about what you can't.

 

We viewed a couple of boats that belonged to live-aboards and both sellers managed to present their boats very well even though they were actually still on the thing when we viewed them. (We also got a cup of tea when we viewed which was a bonus!!)

 

- you wouldn't leave your knickers on show if selling a house so why do it if selling a boat??

 

I completely agree with the above statements. Our house is up for sale - I wouldn't dream of leaving anything lying around when we have a viewing, even if its just a case of popping shoes into wardrobes, pj's under the duvet (yes I have one who leaves on an unmade bed!).We have two dogs, I would'nt dream of not hoovering through the house or mopping the kitchen floor before a viewing. I wouldn't dream of leaving the bath, basin and toilet uncleaned. I'd hate the estate agent to come back to me and say the viewer thought my house was dirty!!

 

Same goes for boats, we've looked around quite a few lately so I suppose you could term us a "tyre kickers". We aren't. We're looking around to see what is on the market in our price bracket and will continue to look but I do wish people would make an effort and leave their boats tidy. I don't expect to look around a boat and not see dust on fixtures and fittings. But I do object to opening a bathroom door and being presented by an offensive smell, a dirty shower and a basin caked in toothpaste! I do object to looking the galley over and seeing last June's full English splattered all over the cooker! I do object to looking in the bedroom and being confronted by a mattress that has God alone knows what stains on it. At least chuck a blanket over it for Christ's sake or chuck the mattress!

 

And having made these observations known to a certain broker I expect more than a shrug of the shoulders and a devil may care attitude.

 

As for prices, I guess the same can be said for boats as well as houses. They are only worth what a prospective buyer is prepared to pay for it.

 

 

 

[Albion]

I completely agree with the above statements. Our house is up for sale - I wouldn't dream of leaving anything lying around when we have a viewing, even if its just a case of popping shoes into wardrobes, pj's under the duvet (yes I have one who leaves on an unmade bed!).We have two dogs, I would'nt dream of not hoovering through the house or mopping the kitchen floor before a viewing. I wouldn't dream of leaving the bath, basin and toilet uncleaned. I'd hate the estate agent to come back to me and say the viewer thought my house was dirty!!

 

Same goes for boats, we've looked around quite a few lately so I suppose you could term us a "tyre kickers". We aren't. We're looking around to see what is on the market in our price bracket and will continue to look but I do wish people would make an effort and leave their boats tidy. I don't expect to look around a boat and not see dust on fixtures and fittings. But I do object to opening a bathroom door and being presented by an offensive smell, a dirty shower and a basin caked in toothpaste! I do object to looking the galley over and seeing last June's full English splattered all over the cooker! I do object to looking in the bedroom and being confronted by a mattress that has God alone knows what stains on it. At least chuck a blanket over it for Christ's sake or chuck the mattress!

 

And having made these observations known to a certain broker I expect more than a shrug of the shoulders and a devil may care attitude.

 

As for prices, I guess the same can be said for boats as well as houses. They are only worth what a prospective buyer is prepared to pay for it.

 

Tyre kickers in my book are those who look over a boat (or a house) with no money to buy, or no possible intention of buying. They aren't people seriously looking and comparing potential purchases.

Roger

[deletedaccount]

Good reply. What about the £35k to £60k part of the market? This is the bread and butter area for brokers like me. Decent boats, well maintained, nothing complicated, good nick. Boats that you can walk on to with a suitcase and set off on. Does anyone have a view on that?

 

Then there's the £60k to £100k area: fine old engines, or very well executed fit outs, or both, top of the market builders. Etc.

 

I will be honest: I am trying to put this article together, and I really want to research it thoroughly rather than churn out some load of old bull.

 

Canal World is a great source of advice from ordinary boat owners.

 

Also, there is a new boat market Where is that going?

 

Maybe not for this edition but I'd be interested in an article about liveaboards experience of "trading up". As in, selling their existing boat and buying a new one. I'm still scratching my head about how I'll achieve this when I go for a widebeam in a few years.

[Victor Vectis]

At least chuck a blanket over it for Christ's sake or chuck the mattress!

 

But wait until the first weekend in June and be sure to ditch it somewhere on the BCN to give us 'Challengers' some sport

Edited January 23, 2012 by Victor Vectis

[davey b]

I think the mooring issue can be a bit of a red herring. It's fine if the mooring is where you want it, it's fine if the price is in your pocket range (afterall it will be a new contract) it's fine if it all goes well...

 

What if your landlord doesn't like the buyer? what if they put the fees up? Where and when do you move if it falls through?

 

Yes, Went through all of these...

 

 

 

All the advice is get a mooring before you get a boat. Have you actually tried that? It seems people don't want to rent out empty spaces for some reason...

[DandV]

If I was interesting in buying or selling a boat I would be interested in an article which :

 

What is the market?

 

State of the market- (Somewhat depressed, but reasonably priced and well-presented boats will sell)

 

Where is it going- nowhere until things pick up and there is confidence in both the economy and C&RT- probably 5 years or so I think)

Clone craft. Weirdos don't sell/re-sell so they need to be cheap and probably will end up as project boats.

Typical price ranges for ex-hire, mid market, good builders etc.

 

 

 

Agree totally, this is exactly the information we would really appreciate.

 

Cheers Don