Kelvin K2 spares

[lesrollins]

I am new to boating and looking at boats I wondered what the spares situation is like for a 1933 Kelvin K2, are they reliable, how many hours between servicing are they easy to maintain.

[GBBS]

hi, Spares mostly available and one of the best starting points would be Phil Trotter at RW davis, Saul Junction. Relaible? Yes Service intervals? 100- 200 hours or annually at least depending on useage and how particular you are. Easy to do and relatively cheap as there is no oil filter! . I would always use a straight 30 oil without detergent additives i.e not XHD 30 again due to no oil filter.

 

Dave

[BEngo]

I am new to boating and looking at boats I wondered what the spares situation is like for a 1933 Kelvin K2, are they reliable, how many hours between servicing are they easy to maintain.

 

Kelvin for more information on Kelvins.

 

As GBBS has said there are plenty of K spares about and new items can be sourced from India. You shouldn't need many though- these engines go on and on like a mother-in-law.

 

The Kelvins of that vintage were designed to be maintained by a Scottish fisherman, with the assistance of a mechanic only at overhaul times. The nuts and bolts are nearly all BSF so your AF and metric spanners won't be much use. Phil Trotter at RW Davis, as said, or Dick Goble in Stoke-on-Trent has a good name for knowing about Kelvins.

 

The Kelvin recommendation was to change the oil (Engine and Gearbox) every month- but that was for a boat working all day, 6 days a week. Chuck both lots of oil out at least every year ifg ypou don't do 2-300 hours and about every 3rd year take the doors off the sides and scoop out the sooty crap that collects in the bottom of the sump. A second vote for straight, non-detergent mineral oil at SAE30.

 

Assuming it is a petrol-start one you will need to source some Champion K97F spark plugs, if it doesn't come with them. Many K's will start on diesel from cold, if it's a reasonably warm day, or with a Thermostart if one has been fitted to the Air manifold. Petrol starting is much more fun though. Koukouvagia has posted a video of how to start his K2- I will leave you to the tender mercies of the search engine to find it! It is also on youTube. You will probably need to allow for a magneto rebuild every 3-5 years or so- depending on how warm and dry it is kept when you are not boating.

 

Enquire as to whether the gearbox has lined clutches or all metal ones- the all metal ones can stick in gear after a long run and then need to be lightly skimmed to take the ridges off. The lined ones have no problem and the linings can be replaced easily by the sort of people who re-line truck brakes

 

Oh, and check that it comes with the Teachers bottle for the diesel injector drain. If not you will have to empty your own. Replace this as required.

 

N

[koukouvagia]

 

Assuming it is a petrol-start one you will need to source some Champion K97F spark plugs, if it doesn't come with them. Koukouvagia has posted a video of how to start his K2- I will leave you to the tender mercies of the search engine to find it! It is also on youTube. You will probably need to allow for a magneto rebuild every 3-5 years or so- depending on how warm and dry it is kept when you are not boating.

 

Here's the Youtube

 

The magneto is the only thing that's given me trouble in fifteen years. It cost about £400 to be refurbished. However, I've now replaced it with a battery and coil system - much more reliable.

Oh, just remembered something else - a nut sheered in the water pump. It was a half inch BSP and I had every sized spare on board but that one. Rescued by Dick Goble - a Kelvin guru.

[alan_fincher]

Interested bystander question.....

 

Between what two dates would a K2 have been in production, please ?

 

(Sorry if it's already answered here somewhere!).

[koukouvagia]

Interested bystander question.....

 

Between what two dates would a K2 have been in production, please ?

 

(Sorry if it's already answered here somewhere!).

 

Between 1933 and 1954. I have in mind that about 800 were built, but I may be wrong on that - I'll see if I can find the figure.

[BEngo]

Between 1933 and 1954. I have in mind that about 800 were built, but I may be wrong on that - I'll see if I can find the figure.

 

 

They were still listed as available by the Bergius Company in 1964 and I think went on after that. Wikipedia says the K's went till 1974. The late Walter Bergius, who I would have though a reliable source, on Mike Skyners site also has the last K sale as 1974, and the first sale as 1931. Same source has Total K series sales as 5000. How many were K2's it doesn't say and when the last K2 was sold it doesnt say. The price for a K2 in 1964 was £1601.

 

 

Regards

 

N

[koukouvagia]

They were still listed as available by the Bergius Company in 1964 and I think went on after that. Wikipedia says the K's went till 1974. The late Walter Bergius, who I would have though a reliable source, on Mike Skyners site also has the last K sale as 1974, and the first sale as 1931. Same source has Total K series sales as 5000. How many were K2's it doesn't say and when the last K2 was sold it doesnt say. The price for a K2 in 1964 was £1601.

 

 

Regards

 

N

 

Interesting. My source, again from Mike Skyner's excellent site is a Kelvin publication on the history of the firm, which says:

The Kelvin J and K diesel engines, which first appeared in 1933, soon replaced the petrol-paraffin engine..... Walter Bergius died in 1949, and in 1954 the J and K engines were replaced by the smaller Kelvin Model P monobloc diesel (developing 10 and 20 hp)

[rjasmith]

They were still listed as available by the Bergius Company in 1964 and I think went on after that. Wikipedia says the K's went till 1974. The late Walter Bergius, who I would have though a reliable source, on Mike Skyners site also has the last K sale as 1974, and the first sale as 1931. Same source has Total K series sales as 5000. How many were K2's it doesn't say and when the last K2 was sold it doesnt say. The price for a K2 in 1964 was £1601.

 

 

Regards

 

N

 

I think you mean George (Walter's son) rather than Walter don't you? Walter died in 1949 and George in 2004 just before the Bergius Co centenary exhibition in Glasgow.

 

I also thought the time range was from 1931 to the 1970's and Kevin Whittle's book says there were 43 K1's, 850 K2's, 1200 K3's and 2100 K4's.

 

Hopefully Kevin got all his info direct from George who was often invited to the little Kelvin rallies he used to organise. We met him there at the last one he came to in 2003 and got him to sign my copy of Kevin's A to Z of Vintage Marine Engines book.

 

As another pointer to spares and support for lesrollins - there's always Seaward Eng in Glasgow run by Andy Bruce and John Dick who worked at the Bergius factory in their youth.

 

Their Kelvin spares "mountain" in the shed in Pollokshaws Road is really something to behold!

 

Richard

[BEngo]

Interesting. My source, again from Mike Skyner's excellent site is a Kelvin publication on the history of the firm, which says:

 

 

I think this is down to interpretation. The P series, which only developed 20Hp from the 4 cyl version, was never going to replace the K with 22 hp per cyl. That was a job for the R at 15hp per cyl and more likely the T at 30hp per cyl. Things at Bergius happened slowly and in response to the market. If enough customers wanted new K's then they could have them. I expect that what actually happened was that demand for K's held up at the large end of the range- the various K6's with reduction and hydraulic boxes were a response to this- and the J's and smaller Ks were superseded by the P&R ranges. Then there was a sea-change (ouch!) in the fishing industry when we got into the EEC. As a result fishing boats got bigger, distances were greater and hold space at a premium- so engines with better power to volume ratios became important- resulting in the end of K demand.

 

True to form though Bergius/Kelvin held onto the spares business- All the J bits for example lasted until 1984, just before I bought my J2, then were 'scrapped'. I suspect many of them made their way to Pollokshaws road. The K ones lasted even longer I believe, but probably mostly ended up in the same place.

 

N

[alan_fincher]

So I think we have established that when OP talks about a 1933 K2, that must be one of the first then ?

 

I didn't realise they went back quite that far.....

 

Thanks for the answers!.....

[rjasmith]

So I think we have established that when OP talks about a 1933 K2, that must be one of the first then ?

 

I didn't realise they went back quite that far.....

 

Thanks for the answers!.....

 

Yes - that's a thought - I wonder if it really is the right date. Should be easy to sort out using Mike Skyner's engine dating page on his fabulous website here.

 

Just enter the engine serial number and it comes up with the nearest known date based on engines that have been logged previously.

 

Trying a few numbers myself just now suggests that the "1933" engine would have to have a number around 18000 to fit as 17998 is a known K2 from 1932.

 

Edit to add that it would have to be between 17998 and 18261 as 18261 is known to be a K3 from 1934!

 

Richard

Edited January 20, 2012 by rjasmith

[lesrollins]

How many hours will a Kelvin K2 run comfortable and what are they like in hot weather, can it be fitted with a starter and at what cost. I will pop down to saul as I only live in Gloucester so thats handy. Just wondered as well why the lights on the narrowboat I am going to be looking at are 24v and not 12v

[Proper Job]

Boats with K series engines are often 24v because thats what the starter motor/charging system is usually set up as.

 

Although you're asking about fitting a starter motor, so that wouldn't ring true

 

Phil Trotter's your man to talk to especially as he so close.

 

A K series is built to run a tick-over/very low load and runs very cool as a matter of routine. IIRC the manual says that it should be warm to the touch. Anything more than that and somethings wrong.

 

I had a K3 in a 41' pinnace. That was direct raw water cooled with sea water. It never got warm, even when running continuously up around the 6 - 700 rpm mark.

[koukouvagia]

How many hours will a Kelvin K2 run comfortable and what are they like in hot weather, can it be fitted with a starter and at what cost. I will pop down to saul as I only live in Gloucester so thats handy. Just wondered as well why the lights on the narrowboat I am going to be looking at are 24v and not 12v

 

Kelvins will run all day. Hot or cold weather doesn't make any difference. I have two pulleys on the flywheel: one drives a 24v alternator and charges up 2 12v starter batteries; the other drives a 12v alternator for the two service batteries. This keeps the set up nice and simple.

 

There is an anecdotal account of a Kelvin which ran non-stop for forty years on a lake in Africa. The boatman never knew how to start it so he kept it running, just topping it up with oil and diesel.

 

 

[lesrollins]

They sound a little more hardy than a modern engine and pushing a 70ft narrowboat should be easy

[Proper Job]

They sound a little more hardy than a modern engine and pushing a 70ft narrowboat should be easy

8 litre, 44hp @ 750 rpm, 308 lbs ft of torque through a 1:1 box

 

Theoretically a K2 is massivly over powered for an NB, but the fact that you can run them at low loads without glazing to the bores means that they're OK

 

obviously - if you get the boat and find that you don't like it, let me know. I'll swap it for my JP3

 

This is quite a good read about K2's : Living with a K2

Edited January 20, 2012 by Proper Job

[rjasmith]

How many hours will a Kelvin K2 run comfortable and what are they like in hot weather, can it be fitted with a starter and at what cost. I will pop down to saul as I only live in Gloucester so thats handy. Just wondered as well why the lights on the narrowboat I am going to be looking at are 24v and not 12v

 

It does sound like an early engine if it has no electric start (ie it is hand start on petrol only, in the time honoured Kelvin manner!)

 

I must admit I'm intrigued! Lesrollins are you sure you want to have a Kelvin from 1933 with petrol start only?

 

It won't be cheap to take the enormous flywheel off, machine a starter ring groove on it, make or find a starter ring to fit, modify the crankcase to fit a starter motor mount, find a starter motor mount and then, probably the easy bit, obtain a CAV BS5 starter (24v) and fit and wire it plus a pair of 12v batteries.

 

Quite apart from that as this is an early K2 and there are not that many about that are still original with hand start only. It does seem a bit of a pity to muck about with it!

 

I think you are going to have to do quite a lot of research about how these engines work - they are far from conventional.

 

It won't be easy to be relying on the average canal side engineering facility to look after it - there are quite a few specialists about of course but I think you will need to rely on doing most of the routine maintenance yourself.

 

You can download the (rather basic) manual using links already given above. I'd definitely go and have a word with Phil Trotter! Would this boat perhaps be one of RWD's Northwich Traders?

 

Richard

[koukouvagia]

It does sound like an early engine if it has no electric start (ie it is hand start on petrol only, in the time honoured Kelvin manner!)

 

I must admit I'm intrigued! Lesrollins are you sure you want to have a Kelvin from 1933 with petrol start only?

 

It won't be cheap to take the enormous flywheel off, machine a starter ring groove on it, make or find a starter ring to fit, modify the crankcase to fit a starter motor mount, find a starter motor mount and then, probably the easy bit, obtain a CAV BS5 starter (24v) and fit and wire it plus a pair of 12v batteries.

 

Quite apart from that as this is an early K2 and there are not that many about that are still original with hand start only. It does seem a bit of a pity to muck about with it!

 

I think you are going to have to do quite a lot of research about how these engines work - they are far from conventional.

 

It won't be easy to be relying on the average canal side engineering facility to look after it - there are quite a few specialists about of course but I think you will need to rely on doing most of the routine maintenance yourself.

 

You can download the (rather basic) manual using links already given above. I'd definitely go and have a word with Phil Trotter! Would this boat perhaps be one of RWD's Northwich Traders?

 

Richard

 

I fully endorse what Richard says. I usually start mine on petrol, but I wouldn't want to rely on a only ahand start. I've done it – simply to assure myself that if pushcame to shove and the starter batteries were flat, I know it'spossible to get the engine started.

 

If you fit a thermostart (a device thatsends ignited diesel into the air intake) it makes for easier starting when cold). I think Alnwick on this forum swears by these.

Edited January 20, 2012 by koukouvagia

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Wonderful engines, I spent a happy hour recently as the owner struggled to start the engine......................

 

L.

 

PS - They look lovely.

[rjasmith]

 

If you fit a thermostart (a device thatsends ignited diesel into the air intake) it makes for easier starting when cold). I think Alnwick on this forum swears by these.

 

As does Phil Trotter! And from my experience of a conversation with him he swears AT petrol starting by hand.

 

If anyone has ever watched "Floating Kitchen" (in which I star for all of 30 seconds!) you will see the trouble the presenter (Simon Woodhouse) had getting the K3 to go.

 

That was a 1937 engine, hand start only and the whole installation (in a Scottish Ring Netter) was pretty much original.

 

Simon had to hand start the engine every day for several months. If there had been a chance to do a proper restoration job on the engine instead of the quick bodges to get it to go after 30 years lying idle half in seawater it might have been a more reliable starter, even by hand.

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

This is quite a good read about K2's : Living with a K2

 

He will invariably misbehave if a female person should invade the privacy of his lair, known to most as the engine room.

 

Oh dear!

 

I can't see all our women boat owners with proper engine rooms reacting too well to this stuff!.......

Edited January 20, 2012 by alan_fincher

[PaddingtonBear]

Oh dear!

 

I can't see all our women boat owners with proper engine rooms reacting too well to this stuff!.......

Ooops, posted on wrong account! Wouldn't make a lot of sense...

Edited January 20, 2012 by PaddingtonBear

[rjasmith]

Ooops, posted on wrong account! Wouldn't make a lot of sense...

Yes I did wonder about the original statement, now edited out and apparently emanating from PB.

 

(Hello Sarah!)

 

Richard

[dcruk]

Mine is 1944 and petrol start only. It took a while to get the timing sorted and learn the best method by trial and error but generally has been straight forward to start. When I get the last few bits back together I'll know if it still is ok ,as it has been waiting for valves and guides for rather a long time. I'm looking forward to waking what has been described as the "the man with the sledgehammer inside the engine!" I can't wait!

 

Dave