Another coal fire question

[carlt]

Putting coal ash in water is not smart, you are directly aiding pollution of the watercourse.

 

No more than you, or do you not have a diesel engine, use oil products on your hull, tip your grey water over the side, etc?

 

We all directly aid pollution of the watercourse

 

Racking wooden boats is an established and accepted means of short term maintenance and is just as acceptable (or 'smart') as any of the other necessary practices that both you and I carry out as boat owners.

[mark99]

No more than you, or do you not have a diesel engine, use oil products on your hull, tip your grey water over the side, etc?

 

We all directly aid pollution of the watercourse

 

Racking wooden boats is an established and accepted means of short term maintenance and is just as acceptable (or 'smart') as any of the other necessary practices that both you and I carry out as boat owners.

 

 

Things and knowledge move on. Grandad innocently risks his family health with his tomatoes which have heavy metals in them as a direct result from his practise of putting coal ash on them. Then knowledge increases and the practise is stopped. Move on.

 

Denial or reliance upon old practices does not put a wrong, right.

 

Asbestos related diseases is forecast to kill up to 180,0000 people in the UK (takes decades to kill in most cases after exposure). But what the heck - it was ok in the old days.

 

Mark

[Maffi]

On the Thames our coal fire ash (and that of everyone we know) goes straight into the river. On the cut that seems less acceptable as someone, eventually, has to dredge it all out again.

 

So, who uses an ashbox and who tips it in the cut?

 

If you use an ash box to collect it, where do you get it please? They don't seem widely available. Googling only seems to return millions of fag ash boxes for fixing to the wall outside your pub or office!

 

It is litter bag it and bin it.

 

Fly tipping is illegal.

 

we dispose of it thoughtfully.

 

Well done! (in a bin I hope)

 

Fill in the pot holes on the towpath.

 

It is no good for the towpath until it has weathered a year or two.

 

On the K & A(I think) recently after restoring a lock they were delighted to receive several tons of ash from a local steam train line, which they tipped into the canal against the lock gates. This apparently was the best way to get a watertight seal, and a common practice in the past.

Brian

 

That was only at night time when the flight was closed.

 

Ditto............It does take a hell of a long time to cool in the bucket though...........

So get your self a large piece of wood, a bit bigger than the bottom of your bucket and it can stand on the roof.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Maffi

[carlt]

Things and knowledge move on. Grandad innocently risks his family health with his tomatoes which have heavy metals in them as a direct result from his practise of putting coal ash on them. Then knowledge increases and the practise is stopped. Move on.

 

Denial or reliance upon old practices does not put a wrong, right.

 

Asbestos related diseases is forecast to kill up to 180,0000 people in the UK (takes decades to kill in most cases after exposure). But what the heck - it was ok in the old days.

 

Mark

Could you point me in the direction of reputable studies that show ash is causing an accumulation of toxic substances, in the waterways, please?

 

I have been unable to find anything that indicates this, despite the question being asked repeatedly.

 

Aside from that, I suspect my occasional dropping of ash down the side of my old boat, constructed and maintained with sustainable materials, has somewhat less impact on the environment than the contents and materials of a modern steel boat.

 

If I could offer some advice from someone whose opinion I'm sure you'll respect...

 

Those that profer negative opinions about other persons choices should take a good look at themselves and the choices they have made lol.

Edited November 18, 2011 by carlt

[Chris Pink]

It is litter bag it and bin it.

 

 

Well done! (in a bin I hope)

 

 

 

 

How responsible (not). Have you actually thought through this process, "bag it and bin it" - by this I gather you mean put it and a plastic bag (would that be bio-degradable plastic bag? or one that will last a few thousand years? into a landfill site somewhere.

 

what an eco-warrior you are.

 

Mine goes on the towpath, always has, always will - except when I need to block leaks in wooden boats, dry dock gates or lock gates.

[davidc]

Could you point me in the direction of reputable studies that show ash is causing an accumulation of toxic substances, in the waterways, please?

 

I have been unable to find anything that indicates this, despite the question being asked repeatedly.

 

Aside from that, I suspect my occasional dropping of ash down the side of my old boat, constructed and maintained with sustainable materials, has somewhat less impact on the environment than the contents and materials of a modern steel boat.

 

If I could offer some advice from someone whose opinion I'm sure you'll respect...

 

carlt this is not coal ash or waterway related

but was a scandle up here

 

 

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/press-releases/official-report-into-newcastle-incinerator-ash-dumping-provokes-fears-of-more-dumping-scandals

 

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/reports/contaminated-ash-from-the-byker-incinerator-the-official-report

 

[carlt]

carlt this is not coal ash or waterway related

but was a scandle up here

 

 

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/press-releases/official-report-into-newcastle-incinerator-ash-dumping-provokes-fears-of-more-dumping-scandals

 

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/reports/contaminated-ash-from-the-byker-incinerator-the-official-report

 

This is, of course, fly ash, from the incineration of thousands of tons of household waste, not a 6"x6"X3" tin tray of wood/smokeless bottom ash, emptied twice a week.

[davidc]

This is, of course, fly ash, from the incineration of thousands of tons of household waste, not a 6"x6"X3" tin tray of wood/smokeless bottom ash, emptied twice a week.

 

I know that, you do not have to state the obvious. I did point it out.

It was for interest on accumulation of toxic substances in Ash.

Sorry if I thought you might be interested, my mistake

[mark99]

Quoted Carlt

 

"Could you point me in the direction of reputable studies that show ash is causing an accumulation of toxic substances, in the waterways, please? I have been unable to find anything that indicates this, despite the question being asked repeatedly"

 

 

Try this

 

http://www.grist.org/article/More-clean-coal

 

Sorry if the link does not answer your carefully worded question and I get penalised on a technicality.

 

Lets get real.

 

Now I'm no hero, I'll use a combustion engine because I have to live and earn. I don't have a realistic/practical choice. We all have to make these decisions daily because to exist, creates an environmental effect.

 

However, given a choice of whether to put contaminents chemicals in water or in a bin and, armed with a bit of knowledge, I'll do my bit and put it in bin.

 

 

Coal ash contains lots of nasties such as arsenic, selenium, lead, mercury, cadmium, chromium, boron, thallium, and aluminum. When coal ash comes into contact with water, these hazardous materials leach out of the waste and contaminate. These substances are poisonous and can cause cancer and damage the nervous system or other organs. Some of these are heavy metals which are inorganic and do not break down.

 

Their charactristic therefore is they accumulate in the environment or get passed along the food chain and accumulate.

 

Disagree?

 

 

"Aside from that, I suspect my occasional dropping of ash down the side of my old boat, constructed and maintained with sustainable materials, has somewhat less impact on the environment than the contents and materials of a modern steel boat".

 

 

It's not just you though is it? there are 70,000 boats registered with BW even if 1/2 of these ran a stove 20 weeks per year with two ash pans, thats many hundreds of not thousands of tonnes entering the waterway.

 

The advice of putting coal ash on food crops is don't (uncontaminated wood ash can be ok-ish), so why would putting it into water be good or ok?

 

 

"If I could offer some advice from someone whose opinion I'm sure you'll respect..."

 

He definately knows the score

 

Things do move on - old ways are not always best.

 

Mark

Edited November 18, 2011 by mark99

[carlt]

It's not just you though is it? there are 70,000 boats registered with BW even if 1/2 of these ran a stove 20 weeks per year with two ash pans, thats many hundreds of not thousands of tonnes entering the waterway.

 

..and there are less than 200 historic wooden narrow boats making use of their ash instead of putting it in a plastic bag and sending it to landfill.

 

The question was asked "So, who uses an ashbox and who tips it in the cut?" and I said why mine ended up in the cut and it is as valid a reason as yours, for using toxic substances to keep your boat maintained, whilst you landfill your ash, with your head held high.

[carlt]

Coal ash should be placed in garbage.

 

Here's a study looking at what happens to your responsibly landfilled ashes...

 

Clicky

 

However, given a choice of whether to put contaminents chemicals in water or in a bin and, armed with a bit of knowledge, I'll do my bit and put it in bin.

 

So, now you're armed with a bit more knowledge about what happens to your ash after it goes in your bin, how will you "do your bit"?

Edited November 18, 2011 by carlt

[Grace and Favour]

On the Thames our coal fire ash (and that of everyone we know) goes straight into the river. On the cut that seems less acceptable as someone, eventually, has to dredge it all out again.

 

So, who uses an ashbox and who tips it in the cut?

 

If you use an ash box to collect it, where do you get it please? They don't seem widely available. Googling only seems to return millions of fag ash boxes for fixing to the wall outside your pub or office!

 

We bought a couple of stainless steel buckets/lids, one for coal, one (kept outside) for the ash (which allows the ashes to cool, and accumulate over a week or tow - and we then dispose of with our domestic waste.

 

(and the buckets look smart, won't rust, and do the job admirably

Edited November 18, 2011 by Grace & Favour

[system 4-50]

I rake out the fire then wait a few hours so that the ash does not contain any still smouldering embers, to avoid fumes, then empty the ash into a large biscuit tin with lid and leave (inside) to get cold. When cold I bag it with the rest of the household waste.

My grumble is that it is so heavy that I can't fill the waste bag so I use more bags.

[14skipper]

I light a fire and burn it

 

14skipper

[mark99]

..and there are less than 200 historic wooden narrow boats making use of their ash instead of putting it in a plastic bag and sending it to landfill.

 

The question was asked "So, who uses an ashbox and who tips it in the cut?" and I said why mine ended up in the cut and it is as valid a reason as yours, for using toxic substances to keep your boat maintained, whilst you landfill your ash, with your head held high.

 

 

Lol I don't even have a boat. Wooden or steel.

 

Nor do I have a coal fire. I have never landfilled ash or dumped it in water.

 

I do burn wood, lots of it and all the ash goes in my garden with the exception of charcoal which goes into the raised vegggie beds (it holds onto soil micronutrients as it has a massive surface area holding onto them).

 

If you choose to dump your ash in water (even now knowing it's not good) that's still not smart.

 

Lets getdown to it, I said, as a matter of expression and not aimed at anyone, it was not "smart" to put coal ash in water after you posted that you put ash in water and that's hurt your feelings in some way? maybe you took it to mean I thought you are not smart?

 

Any reference to being not "smart" was really only reference to the recent acknowledgment that coal ash put onto foods crops is now a no no based upon recent findings. However, years ago by a lot of accounts it was regarded as "good". A bit like the asbestos issue..... thought to be brilliant in the 40's/50's/60's but now the HSE estimate 4,000 persons will die annually of contact with it in the UK.

 

Mark

Edited November 18, 2011 by mark99

[NB Alnwick]

Before coal ash became classified waste under modern legislation, British Waterways regularly sent a truck to the Great Central Railway to collect the loco ash for use on tow paths etc.

 

Although the regulations have changed, the ash is still the same and we tip the minimal ash that we get from our stove (we burn pure Anthracite) into pot holes on the tow path. The only other alternative is the local tip and landfill.

 

I think there is a bigger problem with the ash from manufactured fuels such as ovoids and briquettes. These contain binders made from mineral oils and other chemicals that in ash form behave quite differently and may be much more of a threat to the environment than pure coal ash.

[carlt]

Nor do I have a coal fire. I have never landfilled ash or dumped it in water.

and yet you seem to know why landfilled leachates are so much better than it being put to use, like so many chemicals are routinely used, in boat maintenance, by far more folk than a few wooden boat owners racking their seams.

 

Kilsby landfill has been leaching into the canal for decades, as has the now disused tip at Barby.

 

This is where your "bagged and binned" ash, that you favour, ends up, and it passes through farmland on its way.

 

Advocating sending ash to landfill, in a plastic bag "is not smart".

 

At least my ash gets used, before ending up in the same place as yours.

Edited November 18, 2011 by carlt

[mark99]

and yet you seem to know why landfilled leachates are so much better than it being put to use, like so many chemicals are routinely used, in boat maintenance, by far more folk than a few wooden boat owners racking their seams.

 

Kilsby landfill has been leaching into the canal for decades, as has the now disused tip at Barby.

 

This is where your "bagged and binned" ash, that you favour, ends up, and it passes through farmland on its way.

 

Advocating sending ash to landfill, in a plastic bag "is not smart".

 

At least my ash gets used, before ending up in the same place as yours.

 

 

I keep returning to the fact that things move on. Old landfills were constructed using barriers like clay in days of old when things like pollution risk were not fully understood or thought important. Now landfills totday use proper lining which are designed to contain the leachate whereby it's then collected and treated.

 

 

Your diatribe above is akin to saying you put pollutants directly down the drains to your advantage because the water authorities pollute the rivers occaisionally with their victorian infrastructure.

 

No matter how many posts you make it will not change the fact that coal ash should not go into water. Now wood ash (pure wood not chemically treated) to plug a weep would almost be smart.

 

Mark

Edited November 19, 2011 by mark99

[carlt]

 

No matter how many posts you make it will not change the fact that coal ash should not go into water.

...and no matter how many posts you make will not change the fact that adding a pollutant, before disposal is just as bad.

[mark99]

Ok Carl, coal ash is ok...... now tell me what you won't put into the canal water then?

 

When researching this topic I can see a similar thread from 2007 whereby your opinion has not changed about putting coal ash in water hence I think anymore argument is possibly a waste of time. You have set out your justification and no rational argument is going to change your mind? or your disposal behaviour.

 

 

Mark

Edited November 19, 2011 by mark99

[carlt]

Ok Carl, coal ash is ok...... now tell me what you won't put into the canal water then?

 

When researching this topic I can see a similar thread from 2007 whereby your opinion has not changed about putting coal ash in water hence I think anymore argument is possibly a waste of time. You have set out your justification and no rational argument is going to change your mind? or your disposal behaviour.

 

 

Mark

Of course it hasn't changed because there is no easy answer to what you do with it.

 

What you are saying is that putting coal ash in a plastic bag then putting it your bin for it to be picked up by a lorry and driven to a land fill, where it will start its leaching process, into the land, to eventually end up in a watercourse somewhere, is better than putting it straight into the watercourse.

 

I am not saying what I do is perfect but what you advocate is the same thing, with a couple of polluting processes in between.

 

Rather than using a material that has got a few harmful trace substances in, how would you like me to rack my boat?

 

Perhaps there is some manufactured substance that I can buy, nicely packaged up in yet more plastic, that will not disturb your sensitivities, especially as you seem to ignore the processes before and after use.

[mark99]

Landfills are not designed to leach - the leachate is captured and treated. Old landfills might leach out.

 

There is nothing terribly wrong with landfills when you consider that rubbish must be dealt with and consider the alternatives. Landfill rubbish is at least placed in one spot contained and managed/monitored.

 

Most people seems not to have a problem with ash disposal.

 

The trouble with coal ash is that the contamination is cumulative.

 

I don't have any particular sensitivities - informed personal decisions maybe that give a little respect for things that cannot defend themselves.

 

I note you ignored the question of what will you not put in the water?

 

I've already hinted at what would do the job on your hull.

 

Mark

[carlt]

I don't have any particular sensitivities - informed personal decisions maybe that give a little respect for things that cannot defend themselves.

 

I note you ignored the question of what will you not put in the water?

 

I've already hinted at what would do the job on your hull.

Aside from things essential to boat maintenance I put nothing in the water other than grey water. What were you insinuating?

 

Wood ash does have its place in the racking process but it is better for sealing the bottoms as it tends to float away from the sides. You can't beat a sawdust, coal ash "snowball for sealing the sides.

 

I think your enthusiasm for land fill is somewhat misplaced if you read what most environmentalists (and civil engineers) have to say.

 

If you do a bit of googling you'll find a great deal more concern about the threat to the environment posed by land fill, than of a couple of hundred boaters reusing their waste.

 

I think you choose to say land fill is fine, rather than back down and accept someone's choice to reuse, reduce and recycle.

 

It would also be worth pointing out that as a wooden boat owner, I tend to have access to large quantities of offcuts so my use of smokeless fuel is probably substantially less than your average steel boat owner.

[mark99]

Ok mate whatever. Facts are it's not good for the environment and the facts are you should not do it.

 

As said, I can see from 2007 you have been aware of the nasties in the stuff and still consider yourself justified in arguing about your continued placement in the water. That's up to you. It's no defense in my opinion no matter how bloody minded you are.

 

There is quite an illuminating theme to your arguments and logic in this thread, to me your arguments are arguments for your continued personal gain - i.e. it's all about YOU and how it affects YOU, and if the facts don't fit well they will be dismissed - the dismmissal often followed by a slice of your subjective opinion.

 

There is nothing I can find on google that suggests putting coal ash in water/environment is acceptable. There is quite a lot advising it's not acceptable. I'm not getting involved in this thread anymore.

 

 

 

Mark

Edited November 19, 2011 by mark99

[carlt]

There is quite an illuminating theme to your arguments and logic in this thread, to me your arguments are arguments for your continued personal gain - i.e. it's all about YOU and how it affects YOU, and if the facts don't fit well they will be dismissed - the dismmissal often followed by a slice of your subjective opinion.

A bit like this then:

Now I'm no hero, I'll use a combustion engine because I have to live and earn. I don't have a realistic/practical choice. We all have to make these decisions daily because to exist, creates an environmental effect.

 

However, given a choice of whether to put contaminents chemicals in water or in a bin and, armed with a bit of knowledge, I'll do my bit and put it in bin.

 

 

So you can dismiss the documented damage that land filling ash does, to the environment yet you have a go at me for reusing mine.

 

I do not see how you can pontificate about someone making a choice about what he feels is necessary to "live and earn" when there is no practical choice, yet you admit to having to make those choices yourself.

 

You choose to ignore all the evidence because it doesn't suit your argument, preferring to rely on a few tit bits from Gardner's Question Time.

 

I make a choice to reuse my waste, rather than landfill it (Landfill sites for domestic waste are somewhat different to those designed to take industrial ash, btw).

 

You completely side skip what happens to the ash, after you've put it in a plastic bag and put it in a bin because the net cost to the environment far outweighs the tiny amount I may tip down the side of my boat.

 

I've come across some blinkered eco-warriors, in my time, but never one who reckons plastic bags and landfill sites are the green alternative, before.

Edited November 19, 2011 by carlt