Does anyone use CB Radio?

[Morat]

I'm looking at various radio options at work and I was wondering whether we should stick with our expensive licensed channel kit or just ditch it and go for CB radio instead. If anyone uses CB on the cut I'd be interested to hear what sort of range you get, and whether the channels are full or if there's plenty of space available....

[muddywaters]

Don't know about now but I used to use it way back in the 80's before it was legal.

But that was just for fun, since it's been made legal it went dull and there where not a lot on so you might get lucky with clear channels, although it woulddepend on time of day I imagine

[landroversforever]

I use CB in the land rover when out with friends. Most of the time there isn't a lot going on unless you're near a motorway and you pick up all the truckies.

[rjasmith]

I'm looking at various radio options at work and I was wondering whether we should stick with our expensive licensed channel kit or just ditch it and go for CB radio instead. If anyone uses CB on the cut I'd be interested to hear what sort of range you get, and whether the channels are full or if there's plenty of space available....

 

Just out of interest do you really mean CB as in the old 27MHz FM system (CB27/81 in UK) or the more modern 446MHz (PMR446) system?

 

I would have thought the majority of "CB" radio users on canals would have PMR446 sets these days as the old 27MHz kit has become relegated to more of a niche market.

 

Richard

[bottle]

what sort of range you get,

 

There are so many factors involved that there is no definitive answer, depends on location, in town you may not even get the next street, on a hill with nothing between you and the next 'radio' you may get a couple of miles, atmospherics will also have an effect.

 

This applies to, CB and PMR

 

When I was at work, we used professional licensed equipment with relay stations (waveband solely for our use) and still could not guarantee communication.

 

There was one anomaly though, depending on the weather (atmospherics) we could get the next county base but not our own.

[alan_fincher]

Don't know about now but I used to use it way back in the 80's before it was legal.

Would have to have been the very early 80s, as legal CB arrived in the UK in 1981.

 

(OK obviously it was possible to continue to operate illegal sets after that date, but you know what I mean.....)

[Morat]

I was thinking of the 27 mhz kit, because you can get vehicle mounted sets, base stations etc whereas the 446 kit seems to be hand held only and they are deliberately constructed with fixed antennae so they comply with the regs.

 

The lack of other people on the band would be a bonus but I do know that the local farmers use it. I'm quite surprised that the towpath telegraph hasn't taken this up...it would be dead easy to mount on a narrow boat and most of the kit is 12v.

[by'eck]

I bought a pair of cheap PMR radio's from Maplins many years ago. The VOX switch (voice activated transmit) was a bit flaky but we used them successfully manually to chat from opposite ends of the boat when reef spotting.

 

On the cut I can see uses when operating through a flight of locks. Line of sight range was about 2km.

[Nickhlx]

This topic was discussed quite a bit about a year ago...

 

I use the 446 sets quite a bit - we have a lock and a lift bridge around a corner which has to be set before you leave the lock, as the river re-joins the canal immediately after the lock, and you have to "go for it" else risk getting taken by the flow - its very handy to know when its all ready to go...

 

Also, even though our engine is quiet by some standards, you still can't hear someone 50 ( 25?) yards away over it, so it's useful for that too..

 

They are pretty small, and cheap enough not to lose sleep if you drop one in ( around a tenner each) and I've never found the range inadequate for general use..

 

There are always those who "can't see it", and have managed "perfectly well" for 25 years without them... but then so did people before telephones / cars / TV / electricity.... etc etc came about

 

Nick

[alan_fincher]

Unless 27MHz CB has change a lot since it's early "legal" days, I wonder about the availability of a "hand held" you might actually want to carry.

 

The standard offering back then was "brick size", and needed 12 volts worth of AA batteries in it.

 

Not something that would want to carry lock wheeling!

 

Did smaller 27MHz CB hand-helds ever evolve ?

 

As I see the principle use of radios on a canal boat as "ship crew to shore crew", without small hand-helds it is not practical.

 

Normal "car" 12 volt CB mobile rigs can be useful if travelling "in convoy" with other boats regularly - I certainly see people who do using them.

[mike31]

ive played with radios quite abit, pmr446 is usually about a range of about a mile in openish areas.

there are afew car type radios available but aimed at the radio ham market, they just happen to cover pmr too.

 

 

CB is still used mostly by truckers, but some cheap radios would be good on canal boats, smaller handhelds are avalable now, but nothing as small as the PMR radios.

 

for local use id go with some good quality PMR446 radios, an most can have earpieces etc plugged in so thy dont get in the way of whatever else your doing at the time.

[Nickhlx]

The issue with 27 MHz kit is the frequency itself - the wavelength of this frequency is 11 metres, and aerials smaller than 1/4 wave ( 2.75 metres !!) are a compromise and increasingly inefficient. This is why the 27 MHz aerails are "coiled up" into a "spring" to try to make a bit longer and a bit more efficient.

 

However, PMR 446 kit works on 446 MHz and the wavelength here is around 65 cms, and it is possible to have a full 1/4 wave aerial at about 6 inches in length. Again it is shortened for convenience and portability, but much of its efficiency (in comparison) is retained.

 

The sets are MUCH smaller, mainly because of the higher frequency and much higher sales worldwide of equipment at these frequencies, for all areas of services - utilities, police / fire / ambulance / taxis / radio enthusiasts - most users use this part of the spectrum as its a very good compromise between range and size.

 

To answer Alan's question, I never saw a handheld at 27 MHz smaller than the one you outline - I did have for a while, a tiny car unit, ( Midland, I think) which was definitely smaller in volume than the handheld brick, ( although no integral batteries) and was quite a "state of the art" at the time.

 

Personally, I can never get on with 27 MHz for portable use, partly as the ground wave is pretty limited and the aerials need to be "so large" at this frequency to be worthwhile ( 8 foot whip on a groundplane) to make it impractical - great for skip and intercontinental use when the band is open, but for portable local use its just plain impractical.

 

So, for boat to boat, and locking, it has to be 446 ( all IMHO !!) ....

 

Nick

[AJLintern]

What about VHF as used at sea? I always thought this was effectively the same as CB but using different channels...?

[Nickhlx]

What about VHF as used at sea? I always thought this was effectively the same as CB but using different channels...?

 

VHF needs a licence ( or two? - one for you and one for the set) as potentially you could interfere with emergency services, or not know the protocol or procedure to change channels and use the coding system. Obviously it's a good system, but the sets cost around £100 upwards ( you can get for a bit less) and with all the legals / regs, its a bit more involved than the PMR446 system, which is fine for the usually few hundred yards max that is needed for 90+% of comms at e.g. locks / lift bridges etc...

 

Nick

[Morat]

I think This is about as neat as a 27Mhz handheld gets, and yes they're more expensive than the 446 gear - but then they have more range, and are more sophisticated. On the other hand, I'd definitely cry if I dropped one in the cut!

 

I'd be interested to see any external antennas for 446 gear, my understanding is that to comply with regulations the 446 equipment shouldn't have a removable/replaceable antenna... but I am often wrong

Edited September 24, 2011 by Morat

[mike31]

your right, proper 446 radios have a fixed antenna to comply with the regs.

 

there are some ham radios covering the same frequencies, that have removable antenna, but not strictly legal for use on pmr446

[Nickhlx]

your right, proper 446 radios have a fixed antenna to comply with the regs.

 

there are some ham radios covering the same frequencies, that have removable antenna, but not strictly legal for use on pmr446 -

 

 

Few, if any are covering in the required steps and on-frequency ( e.g. 446.0625 MHz) - they can get to 446.005 Mhz, or 446.010.. unless, of course, you know differently ? even this far off, the audio would sound poor if received on a legal 446 set.

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Morat]

I'm very tempted to get hold of a cheap set to see how crowded the channels are (I suspect not very in my rural location). I'd have thought that CB, now that it is totally license exempt, could develop quite a community spirit. Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist

[Nickhlx]

I'm very tempted to get hold of a cheap set to see how crowded the channels are (I suspect not very in my rural location). I'd have thought that CB, now that it is totally license exempt, could develop quite a community spirit. Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist

 

I would have thought that too - it seems that most are either ( or both) mic-shy or technophobes or don't see the point ( or any combination of all three)

 

Nick

[mike31]

Few, if any are covering in the required steps and on-frequency ( e.g. 446.0625 MHz) - they can get to 446.005 Mhz, or 446.010.. unless, of course, you know differently ? even this far off, the audio would sound poor if received on a legal 446 set.

 

Nick

 

ive used radios set to the nearest step, an had no problems.

[Nickhlx]

ive used radios set to the nearest step, an had no problems.

 

Different sets are set up with different bandwidths - PMR446 is about 2.5 kHz, amateur about 5kHz, depending on manufacturer and cost/quality and older sets were wider bandwidths.

It is possible for sets to work with each other satisfactorily although unless on the same spec, performance will inevitably be compromised...

 

Nick

[RobinR]

I think This is about as neat as a 27Mhz handheld gets, and yes they're more expensive than the 446 gear - but then they have more range, and are more sophisticated. On the other hand, I'd definitely cry if I dropped one in the cut!

 

I'd be interested to see any external antennas for 446 gear, my understanding is that to comply with regulations the 446 equipment shouldn't have a removable/replaceable antenna... but I am often wrong

 

Were a standard to be set, then 27Mhz would probably be the better choice because the greater range and variable power output levels would be good for on-boat comms, local boat to lock etc comms whilst being able to get signals a little further when set at 4 watts out and if in general use could be used as a water / time saving tool by advising others when approaching locks. We generally use 446Mhz PMR which are ok to a nearby lock but not much further. Marine VHF requires a licence and exam pass but of very limited use on UK inland waterways at present. Recent and current Amateur equipment can generally be set to the frequencies, power levels and bandwidths for 27Mhz CB and 446Mhz PMR by selecting the relevant parameters within the set-up menus. My Yaesu FT817 HF / VHF tranciever has both in memories for listening purposes only and my TYT UHF1 VHF / UHF Handheld has the 446Mhz channels in memories (again for listening purposes only).

 

There is a proposal for boaters to use Ch8 on 446Mhz but I have heard this in use only once over 6 years / 3 to 4 weeks per year!! With a pair of good handhelds on eBay from time to time for around £10 there is surely no good reason for there not to be more extensive use accross inland waterways?

[Morat]

Well I just lost a game of ebay chicken on an Intek-520 hand held CB - so I'll be giving it a whirl

[Nickhlx]

I don't think any quantity of 27 MHz sets will come in to use because of their sheer bulk ( apart from the one mentioned earlier)

 

So its going to be of no value trying to implement an unpopular type of set as even fewer people are going to get a bulky set than a convenient-sized item ( and even fewer buy the more expensive smaller 27 MHz set).

 

With so few users, there is little point in buying a set hoping you may encounter one of them one day, so a few people will buy for mainly their own purposes ( boat to lock) and if anyone ever comes on the channel ( Channel 8 code 0) that's a bonus.

 

The reason for little radio being used on the waterways I am sure is because it is a VERY big "emotional hurdle" for a non-follower of radios to start using a radio - As I am sure you will have noticed, they are very self-conscious, non-confident and make any excuse not to use one. Wrestling with "a brick" is a definite no-no.... Prospective users will be very "non-technical" and even the option to change power level will result in some getting it wrong some of the time, using low power for a situation needing high power, it won't work "first time", so they won't bother again, further decreasing the number of users. An on-off switch and channel/code switch will be the limit of these people's wish to understand the things, and that is assuming the "cosmetics" / weight / bulk / convenience have been accepted... Radio hams / enthusiasts are a completely different group of people and the two really don't mix...

 

Nick

[Laurie Booth]

Don't know about now but I used to use it way back in the 80's before it was legal.

But that was just for fun, since it's been made legal it went dull and there where not a lot on so you might get lucky with clear channels, although it woulddepend on time of day I imagine

That's a big Ten Four good buddy, catch you on the flip flop, don't get caught by the Kojacks with the Kodaks!

The General

Edited September 27, 2011 by Laurie.Booth