The Great Haywood Nut

[Windfola]

But why do YOU need evidence? surely it would be down to the professionals?

 

Well I would say that I have been a professional with the authority to detain people under the Mental Health Act, though obviously I am in no position to comment in this individual case. And, importantly, neither is anyone else here, hence the point I am making is I get rather tired of people assuming that if a person is behaving badly then they must be mentally ill, or are even likely to be mentally ill. Such an assumption is not only insulting to those who are victims of bad or criminal behaviour, but also, and more damagingly, to the overwhelming majority of people with a mental illness who are not violent or aggressive in any way. It serves to perpetuate the myth that aggression and mental illness are related, which they assuredly are not.

 

If this man is arrested then he may (or may not) be subject to MHA section 136, whereupon a mental health assessment could then be carried out. But the issue here appears to be that he is behaving in a possibly unlawful way and complaints about his activities appear not to be being taken seriously.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Windfola

[Guest wanted]

Well I would say that I have been a professional with the authority to detain people under the Mental Health Act, though obviously I am in no position to comment in this individual case. And, importantly, neither is anyone else here, hence the point I am making is I get rather tired of people assuming that if a person is behaving badly then they must be mentally ill, or are even likely to be mentally ill. Such an assumption is not only insulting to those who are victims of bad or criminal behaviour but more damagingly to the overwhelming majority of people with a mental illness who are not violent or aggressive in any way. It serves to perpetuate the myth that aggression and mental illness are related, which they assuredly are not.

 

If this man is arrested then he may (or may not) be subject to MHA section 136, whereupon a mental health assessment could then be carried out. But the issue here appears to be that he is behaving in a possibly unlawful way and complaints about his activities appear not to be being taken seriously.

 

Agreed

[mayalld]

Agreed, Surley a quick call to the police would be a win win instead of locking yourself in your boat?

 

Oh, yes, of course, bound to work that.

 

Call the police, they turn up, wag their finger at him, and leave you alone with him for the night.

 

I think I MIGHT just pass on that one.

[Guest]

I would set SWMBO on him; he would only threaten her once.. As Basil Faulty said "She can kill a man with one lash of her tongue."

[nb Innisfree]

Oh, yes, of course, bound to work that.

 

Call the police, they turn up, wag their finger at him, and leave you alone with him for the night.

 

I think I MIGHT just pass on that one.

 

Imagine the horror of having a finger wagged at you, it doesn't bear thinking about...

[BelgiumBrit]

I've been following this thread for quite a few days, just wondering where it would go ...........

 

So, we have a guy , who is living on an unlicenced boat, fending for himself, flouting B.W mooring rules.

 

The O.P was , I believe, ( despite his post title ) quite rightly highlighting a potential problem ( if not threat ) of someone whom he has witnessed behaving in an anti social and beligerent manner, that maybe could escalate in certain circumstances.Given the nature of this site ( a forum for discussion and highlighting problems on the waterway, The O.P was right to do that !)

 

I'm pretty amazed that this has turned into a multi page discussion about Mental Health Isuues to be honest . We have some posters that are 'professional' MH experts,and it is great to have 'experienced' viewpoints on any forum. But, Mental Health Isuues are contentious, you can never underestimate someone with a M.H issue ,they , by the nature of their condition can be volatile, unpredictable, and extremely violent without necessarily showing any forewarning ( but the man in question does seem to be consistant in his manner ) !

 

I was a Police Sergeant for many years , and I know the Mental health System; I know the Criminal Justice System too ;how they assess,and take into 'account' Mental health issues, and how 'they' fail to accomodate such people; Or HOW they fail to 'protect' those with mental illness and members of the public alike! Sadly both systems in 'partnership', on too many occasions let innocent members of the public down dramatically with dreadful , fatal , or 'life changing ' consequences, when those with serious Mental Health issues should be in secure accommodation.They also 'let down' those with illness that require remedial and interventionalist help.

 

If you have a problem with this man, don't call the Social Services Mental Health Assessment Team, call the Police, get it logged, and have it dealt with through the CJS , they will then get Mental Health Assessment involved.

 

Clearly he is spoiling 'others' enjoyment' of the Cut , and is being threatening or abusive to others ( Sec 5 Public Order Act 1986 ). If he is dealt with properly, and gets profesional help , whilst in custody or elsewhere by order of the courts , that HAS to be for the greater good surely ?????????

Edited July 4, 2011 by BelgiumBrit

[carlt]

 

Clearly he is spoiling 'others' enjoyment' of the Cut , and is being threatening or abusive to others ( Sec 5 Public Order Act 1986 ). If he is dealt with properly, and gets profesional help , whilst in custody or elsewhere by order of the courts , that HAS to be for the greater good surely ?????????

I understand he does have a helmsman's certificate, though.

[Windfola]

But, Mental Health Isuues are contentious, you can never underestimate someone with a M.H issue ,they , by the nature of their condition can be volatile, unpredictable, and extremely violent without necessarily showing any forewarning

 

I cannot believe you have just had the audacity to say that when you are a policeman, with a very limited exposure to what constitutes mental disorder.

 

 

I was a Police Sergeant for many years , and I know the Mental health System; I know the Criminal Justice System too ;how they asess,and take into 'account' Mental helth issues, and how 'they' fail to accomodate such people; Or HOW they fail to 'protect' those with mental illness and members of the public alike! Sadly both systems in 'partnership', on too many occasions let innocent members of the public down dramatically with dreadful , fatal , or 'life changing ' consequences, when those with serious Mental Health issues should be in secure accommodation.They also 'let down' those with illness that require remedial and interventionalist help.

 

I would put it to you that you necessarily have experience of a tiny proportion of those with mental illness. I would ask you for evidence of how many people you stopped on a 136 who turned out to have a mental illness requiring detention in hospital? And how many were discharged from their assessment without further action? I have discharged endless numbers of 136s and detained a tiny number by comparison. So I suspect your view is skewed by your prejudice. You have no knowledge (why would you?) of the hundreds of thousands of people who receive treatment and support from mental health services every year. They are no more likely to commit an offence than anyone else. They are instead vulnerable to the kind of discrimination that puts them at risk of suffering violence and aggression from the prejudices of those who are taken in by the myths that are peddled by parties who are not in full possession of the facts.

[BelgiumBrit]

I understand he does have a helmsman's certificate, though.

 

Nice one !

[BelgiumBrit]

Windfola ................It is late, but I promise to reply to your post tomorrow ..............How could i resist ?

[Windfola]

Yes well, be sure and check your facts first.

[Alan Saunders]

@Windfola, clearly you are a confident professional who has no fear of the 'mad axe-man', the old lady renowned for putting burning newspaper through your letterbox or the many other clients who merely vandalise your car or frighten your family. Not to mention the minor annoyance of language I would rather my children did not hear shouted in the High Street.

 

The OP warned us of a hazard that may spoil our holiday. It seems to me that the 'professionals' (including my ex) enjoy and welcome such encounters rather than seeking to avoid them as I would.

 

Alan

(Sorry, I have just been 'killed by the kindness of a fellow boater' - yet again!)

[Amwris]

Sorry but I still don't see any evidence that he needs assessing for anything other than to be charged with threatening behaviour. Anger and intimidation do not a mental illness make.

 

can't disagree with that but I was responding to a point made by the OP. But I'm also sure you know that threatening behaviour, anger and intimidation could possibly be indicative of underlying disorder. Either way if said gent is behaving in any form of inappropriate manner (for whatever reason) then he should be reported to the police for his sake and others. The police have the facility to access him to whichever services are appropriate to his needs.

 

Regards

 

Phil

[BelgiumBrit]

Yes well, be sure and check your facts first.

 

At the risk of souding rude, I know my facts VERY well, but you do tend to make some sweeping 'generalisations' and do appear overly defencive of Mental Health Issues, and I'm intreagued as to why that should be so.

 

You state that you are a very well qualified 'Professional' who has (please excuse me for doing this from memory without checking, but it's a long thread ) 'great experience in Mental Health Assessment'.I am no longer a serving Police Officer, but have had dealings with many hundreds of people on the street, or that I have arrested, or have come to my attention as a Custody Sergeant.

 

Mental Health comes in many forms, from low to severe depressions,anxiety,compulsive behaviour, inability to interact, self harm,low self esteem,addiction, psychoses, neuroses, irrationality of thought, violence to property and other people , and the list goes on ........

 

You do seem to be very dismissive of anyone who has a 'viewpoint' on Mental Health , despite the other persons' experiences and qualifications to discuss this issue in an 'informed' manner within a discussion forum. Again, I wonder why that might be ?

 

The Internet is a weird and wondrful place where anyone can be 'anyone'. I might not be an ex copper at all, i may be a 'career criminal' , you only have my online word for my previous experiences and career.

 

Likewise, you may be someone who isn't an experienced, "over qualified Mental health professional", but someone who is themselves presently suffering from , or overcoming their own mental illness. Internet is just plain weird at times isn't it ?

Edited July 6, 2011 by BelgiumBrit

[Yellowback]

 

The Internet is a weird and wondrful place where anyone can be 'anyone'. I might not be an ex copper at all, i may be a 'career criminal' , you only have my online word for my previous experiences and career.

 

Likewise, you may be someone who isn't an experienced, "over qualified Mental health professional", but someone who is themselves presently suffering from , or overcoming their own mental illness. Internet is just plain weird at times isn't it ?

 

Or even..........."a rather large, bald man who is prone to greeting fellow boaters with jolly sayings like 'What you looking at?' or 'I live here'."

[BelgiumBrit]

Didn't even cross my mind ...................jeeze , could it be ? Surely NOT !

[Windfola]

I am happy to confirm that I have a bi-polar disorder. But that is irrelevant to this discussion. There are indeed many people out there with mental disorders, be they personality disorders, substance abuse issues or profound psychological difficulties. These are not biological mental illnesses, as any psychiatrist will tell you, and the people who 'suffer' from them largely have control over their actions and therefore can and must take responsibility for them, like anyone else.

 

I don't believe I have over-generalised on this thread any more than anyone else. However, you are clearly bruised at having your views challenged, which is your problem, not mine, BelgiumBrit. It seems to surprise you that someone who has a mental illness is capable of holding a higher degree and working full time as a professional clinician. Does that make you feel more threatened, than the idea that I am The Great Heywood Nut? I would put it to you that it probably does. I respect your own experience of people who come into contact with the police. But it is, I'd have thought, perfectly obvious that you see only a tiny minority of the people that CMHTs work with every day. Your training is in law enforcement, not in psychiatry, so forgive me if I don't see that as qualifying you to make a judgement based on factual evidence, outside what you have directly had experience of.

 

Psychological disorders affect about 1 in 4 people at some time in their lives. Only about one in every hundred of the population suffers from a severe mental illness, including schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder and other psychotic illnesses. Of these very few are likely ever to behave in a violent or threatening manner. Far more people with mental illnesses hurt themselves than other people.

 

In 15 years of working with a wide variety of people in the mental health system I have come into contact with a very few who broke the law, and of those, just a couple did so as a result of their illnesses. That's a couple out of probably several thousand that I and my immediate colleagues came into contact with. Not many really.

 

People with mental health problems are like you and me. They are not monsters or criminals any more than any other group. As I said before, my patients have included professors, teachers, parents of well adjusted and brought up children, students, doctors and yes, police officers too.

 

That is the only point that I am trying to make here. I just want to redress the balance a little and reduce prejudice. Is that so bad?

[RLWP]

Damn, I've run out of greenies for today. And I cannot give you more than one at a time anyway.

 

Thank you Windfola for your openness, it's very powerful

 

In your various posts in this thread I have only had one thing that I disagreed with you over, and I suspect I may have misread you - that there are groups of people with mental health categories

 

MIND have a very useful way of representing mental health, that it is a spectrum. Everyone is somewhere on the spectrum. What is more, no-one stays in the same place on the spectrum all the time and will move up and down to a certain extent.

 

I find this helpful as it leaves no opportunity to separate 'us' from 'them' The spectrum includes a bipolar Windfola, a depressed and burnt-out Richard, a 'sane'* BelgiumBrit.

 

Richard

 

*I've don't really know what 'sane' means

Edited July 6, 2011 by RLWP

[alan_fincher]

TWO excellent posts in my view.

 

I have disagreed with Windfola, over the "only 1% has a truly severe mental illness" figure, but am otherwise very supportive of the stance she is taking.

 

I'm particularly taken with the suggestion from MIND that Richard cites, and which I have heard before. I think it's a very good way of looking at things, and I say that as someone who has spent time on very different parts of the spectrum in the past.

[Windfola]

Bless you, Richard!

 

I agree about the Spectrum entirely. The only thing I would say is that psychotic illnesses are very different from other disorders, in as much as they do affect people's thinking in ways that are beyond their control, and that these thinking patterns are usually contrary to the person's normal thinking and beliefs when they are well. The distinction is biologically driven, though it is exacerbated by life stresses.

 

I wouldn't know about BelgiumBrit's sanity.

[BelgiumBrit]

Damn, I've run out of greenies for today. And I cannot give you more than one at a time anyway.

 

Thank you Windfola for your openness, it's very powerful

 

In your various posts in this thread I have only had one thing that I disagreed with you over, and I suspect I may have misread you - that there are groups of people with mental health categories

 

MIND have a very useful way of representing mental health, that it is a spectrum. Everyone is somewhere on the spectrum. What is more, no-one stays in the same place on the spectrum all the time and will move up and down to a certain extent.

 

I find this helpful as it leaves no opportunity to separate 'us' from 'them' The spectrum includes a bipolar Windfola, a depressed and burnt-out Richard, a 'sane'* BelgiumBrit.

 

Richard

 

 

*I've don't really know what 'sane' means

 

 

The First post of yours that has actually made any real sense, and the 'DIG' made me laugh, so cheers for that ! Always nice to be recognised in any form eh ?

 

Ian

Edited July 6, 2011 by BelgiumBrit

[Windfola]

TWO excellent posts in my view.

 

I have disagreed with Windfola, over the "only 1% has a truly severe mental illness" figure, but am otherwise very supportive of the stance she is taking.

 

I'm particularly taken with the suggestion from MIND that Richard cites, and which I have heard before. I think it's a very good way of looking at things, and I say that as someone who has spent time on very different parts of the spectrum in the past.

 

The one percent figure comes from the occurrence of the most severe and enduring mental illnesses, specifically schizophrenia and severe mood disorders with psychosis. It has been arrived at by research over many decades. There is a strong genetic component to these illnesses. It is the medical categorisation for mental illness, which obviously is defined by doctors. If you subscribe to a non-medical model of mental ill-health, then you may disagree. I belong in neither camp exclusively.

 

While I would not want to detract from anyone's experience of the other, far more common illnesses and disorders, I have never seen any patients more terrified than those with acute episodes of schizophrenia, because the experiences it causes are extremely unpleasant. I don't think anyone who hasn't suffered from these symptoms, or been very close to someone with them can really comprehend quite how terrifying they are. And it is life-long and very damaging to 'normal' life chances. The prognoses for other mental health problems are usually much more positive, whether it be a matter of weeks or months or several years with sporadic recurrences.

 

Sorry folks, I'll get off my soap box now. it's just that I can't help but jump in when I see a chance to challenge discrimination, whether it be intentional or not.

[LoneWolf]

Damn, I've run out of greenies for today. And I cannot give you more than one at a time anyway.

 

Thank you Windfola for your openness, it's very powerful

 

In your various posts in this thread I have only had one thing that I disagreed with you over, and I suspect I may have misread you - that there are groups of people with mental health categories

 

MIND have a very useful way of representing mental health, that it is a spectrum. Everyone is somewhere on the spectrum. What is more, no-one stays in the same place on the spectrum all the time and will move up and down to a certain extent.

 

I find this helpful as it leaves no opportunity to separate 'us' from 'them' The spectrum includes a bipolar Windfola, a depressed and burnt-out Richard, a 'sane'* BelgiumBrit.

 

Richard

 

*I've don't really know what 'sane' means

 

I have done the green for you

 

Well i went through Great Haywood today but sadly no one asked me what i was looking at or told me that they lived there so i have no amateur diagnosis to add.

This thread did get me thinking though, i think that the best way to respond to the aggressive/drunken 'wot you looking at'/'i live here' type query from a possibly aggressive person is with a happy 'how lovely, waking up to the ducks every morning' ie refusing to acknowledge any possible agression.

This is a lot easier with people on boats than it is at a London bus stop after kicking out time.

[nb Innisfree]

Psychological disorders affect about 1 in 4 people at some time in their lives. Only about one in every hundred of the population suffers from a severe mental illness, including schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder and other psychotic illnesses. Of these very few are likely ever to behave in a violent or threatening manner. Far more people with mental illnesses hurt themselves than other people.

 

People with mental health problems are like you and me. They are not monsters or criminals any more than any other group. As I said before, my patients have included professors, teachers, parents of well adjusted and brought up children, students, doctors and yes, police officers too.

 

 

There are some professionals who believe that everyone suffers some mental disorder in their lives, that it is in fact quite normal to become disordered to a certain extent as we proceed through childhood and adolescence and usually become steadily reordered as we enter middle and old age hopefully eventually achieving complete order and possibly some sort of nirvana. The logic being that as we are never fully physically healthy, always under attack from bacteria and viruses etc then it follows that mental health is similar. Just as sexuality can't be clearly divided into homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual so mental health can't be divided into those that are mentally healthy and those that are not.

 

In other words we are all in the same boat

[BelgiumBrit]

I am happy to confirm that I have a bi-polar disorder. But that is irrelevant to this discussion. There are indeed many people out there with mental disorders, be they personality disorders, substance abuse issues or profound psychological difficulties. These are not biological mental illnesses, as any psychiatrist will tell you, and the people who 'suffer' from them largely have control over their actions and therefore can and must take responsibility for them, like anyone else.

 

I don't believe I have over-generalised on this thread any more than anyone else. However, you are clearly bruised at having your views challenged, which is your problem, not mine, BelgiumBrit. It seems to surprise you that someone who has a mental illness is capable of holding a higher degree and working full time as a professional clinician. Does that make you feel more threatened, than the idea that I am The Great Heywood Nut? I would put it to you that it probably does. I respect your own experience of people who come into contact with the police. But it is, I'd have thought, perfectly obvious that you see only a tiny minority of the people that CMHTs work with every day. Your training is in law enforcement, not in psychiatry, so forgive me if I don't see that as qualifying you to make a judgement based on factual evidence, outside what you have directly had experience of.

 

Psychological disorders affect about 1 in 4 people at some time in their lives. Only about one in every hundred of the population suffers from a severe mental illness, including schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder and other psychotic illnesses. Of these very few are likely ever to behave in a violent or threatening manner. Far more people with mental illnesses hurt themselves than other people.

 

In 15 years of working with a wide variety of people in the mental health system I have come into contact with a very few who broke the law, and of those, just a couple did so as a result of their illnesses. That's a couple out of probably several thousand that I and my immediate colleagues came into contact with. Not many really.

 

People with mental health problems are like you and me. They are not monsters or criminals any more than any other group. As I said before, my patients have included professors, teachers, parents of well adjusted and brought up children, students, doctors and yes, police officers too.

 

That is the only point that I am trying to make here. I just want to redress the balance a little and reduce prejudice. Is that so bad?

 

Very well put Windfola. I do understand your viewpoint, maybe moreso now than previously. My original point was that MH illness can include many differing illnesses. I did point this out on my previous post to you. No one , unless trained can diagnose WHAT illness when confronted with a person who seemingly acts 'irrationally' or in a 'threatening manner'is suffering from.But suffice to say, upon attending a scene, Police would make 'their' own assessment of the subject upon being called, arrest for a criminal offence ( if that applies ) and have a MHA done at the station ' not best practice , but there is a need to investigate and Interview if possible ) or Sec 136 MHA , if very obvious.

 

Just becaise someone is obviously mentally ill does not excuse the police from preventing / detecting crime and investiogating it. Whichever path is followed, a Mental Health Assessment will be undertaken at The Station or Local MHAU.

 

Going back to my original point, there are various form of MH which can see erratic, violent behaviour for no apparent reason ,and without warning. And I have seen and dealt with this behaviour on numerous occasions, and trust me, one man can not control a violent male or female who is a diagnosed schizophrenic , that hasn't taken their meds for 10 days !

 

We agree to disagree , i believe !

Edited July 7, 2011 by BelgiumBrit