'Gas free Boats'

[Roger Gunkel]

Mineral oil in the diesel/kerosene range should yield 11KWHr per litre when burned. Usually 2KWHr is lost up the chimney so 9KWHr is available as useful heat.

 

Perhaps you really didn't mean 72C as your original question -quite uncomfortable I think.

 

Yes my apologies, I did put 72C when I meant to put 72F Might use a bit more fuel for that sort of heat. So what I am trying to find out is what the Heritage stove actually uses in fuel consumption for the continuous maintenance of the 72F temperature.

 

If your figures are correct, and I have no reason to assume that they are not, then my boat would need an output of about 4KWHr to match my stove output in the cold weather. That would equate to about 0.4ltrs per hour of diesel, or about 9.6ltrs per day, 67ltrs per week. That ties in with the figures that I kept for my original Eberspacher system and at £0.75p per litre would come to £50 per week. That is bang on the nail of my own experience with diesel heating, but a massive difference to the £20 per week suggested my NbTrickeri for the Heritage Range..

 

I have searched the internet for fuel consumption details on the Heritage, but can find nothing, not even on their own website. If the range can indeed produce that amount of heat from such a small fuel consumption then it would certainly justify the massive cost, but it appears to defy physics, so actual figures would interest me greatly please.

 

Roger

[Robbo]

 

I have searched the internet for fuel consumption details on the Heritage, but can find nothing, not even on their own website. If the range can indeed produce that amount of heat from such a small fuel consumption then it would certainly justify the massive cost, but it appears to defy physics, so actual figures would interest me greatly please.

 

Roger

 

Esse figures here http://esse.com/support/cookers/installation-instructions/oc.o-60.o-80.o-106_install.pdf

 

17.54Kw at 1.97l/h

Edited February 17, 2012 by Robbo

[mrsmelly]

If its left on 24/7 in winter it would cost roughly £20 per week, I usually set it on a timer so it heats the boat morning and evening, and use for cooking in the evening, and generates enough hot water for two showers. This option probably averages at £10 per week. Summer, virtually nothing, for cooking and hot water every day maybe £20 a month, probably less!

 

Try lighting it and see how much it uses.

[Roger Gunkel]

Esse figures here http://esse.com/support/cookers/installation-instructions/oc.o-60.o-80.o-106_install.pdf

 

17.54Kw at 1.97l/h

[Roger Gunkel]

Esse figures here http://esse.com/support/cookers/installation-instructions/oc.o-60.o-80.o-106_install.pdf

 

17.54Kw at 1.97l/h

That's interesting as the figures for the Esse, show the equivalent to about 0.4-5 litres per hour for 4Kwh which corroborates Arthurs figures and my own experience. So does the Heritage range utilise some revolutionary burning proccess, or has Trickeri got his figures wrong. Perhaps CarlT's earlier comment has some relevance

 

Roger

[Arthur Brown]

..Can I suspect that the at least part of the answer lies in the proportion of "Full rated power" actually being used, in an oil stove the fuel consumption should reflect the heat setting just as a eberspacher will turn down both heat and fuel consumption as it gets to a thermostated temperature.

 

A solid fuel stove can be run at power settings below full power by operator skill, an oil stove should have some automation and just do the power modulation as needed by controlling the fuel input.

 

http://www.eberspacher.com/products/air-heating/airtronic-d5.html

Gives this table

 

Heating Capacity..... 	W 	5500 	4800 	2700 	1200
Air Throughput 	m³/h 	........233 	210 	140 	90
Power Requirements 	W 	85 	80 	30 	15
Fuel Consumption 	l/hr 	0.66 	0.58 	0.34 	0.15

Preserved table format by "insert code" function

Edited February 17, 2012 by Arthur Brown

[Terrierious]

Unfortunatley I do not know exactly the amount of fuel the range consumes, nor am I paticularly worried! The range simply provides me with a good source of controllable heat that I find fairly inexpensive to run, which has proved reliable and hastle free. My cooking choice would always be an Aga or range cooker so for me, this appliance is well suited.

[Terrierious]

Please also bear in mind that it does not need to burn fuel continuously for the radiators to be hot, and the oven and hot plate to be hot due to the fact it stores heat due to its construction. I find it only fires up maybe three times per hour to maintain a good room temp and moderate oven temp.

[Robbo]

Please also bear in mind that it does not need to burn fuel continuously for the radiators to be hot, and the oven and hot plate to be hot due to the fact it stores heat due to its construction. I find it only fires up maybe three times per hour to maintain a good room temp and moderate oven temp.

 

Yep, but also remember that diesel/kerosene only provides a certain amount of BTU per litre. If your boat requires an average of around 4Kw to keep warm which will be about average for a large boat with insulation on a minus temp day, it will use around 1/2 litre an hour.

[Roger Gunkel]

Unfortunatley I do not know exactly the amount of fuel the range consumes, nor am I paticularly worried! The range simply provides me with a good source of controllable heat that I find fairly inexpensive to run, which has proved reliable and hastle free. My cooking choice would always be an Aga or range cooker so for me, this appliance is well suited.

Ok, I understand where you are coming from now, as my last house that I lived in for 20 years had an AGA range that I loved and the fuel consumption was irrelevant as it was brilliant to cook on and a source of heat.

 

When it comes to boat heating though, the cost of the fuel becomes very relevant to many people. The cost to you is perhaps irrelevant compared with the benefits that you feel it gives you, so as you say, you don't really know the consumption or particularly care. That's absolutely fine, but of course would be misleading if somebody with no prior knowledge took your estimate as fact, then found that £80 per month that they were expecting for fuel to keep them warm 24 hours per day was nearer £200-250 pm.

 

As Robbo reiterated and Arthur's figures show, a fixed ammount of fuel burned will always give a maximum ammount of Btu no matter what way you look at it. If you store it in the casing of the range, it is still the same amount of heat to radiate, in the same way that if you squirt a gallon of water from a hose around your boat or fill a bucket with it, it's still the same ammount of water. You can't change the basic laws of physics

 

So I think that however nice the Heritage range may be, I'll stick to my solid fuel stove and gas cooking. The cost of the range alone would pay for my heating fuel and gas for 6 years!

 

Roger

[Robbo]

So I think that however nice the Heritage range may be, I'll stick to my solid fuel stove and gas cooking. The cost of the range alone would pay for my heating fuel and gas for 6 years!

 

I can see why people go for the Aga type stoves like the Esse though if you don't want gas. For the price of a diesel stove like the wallas and a decent diesel heater, they come to around the same price. Of course you can still have a soild fuel stove with it and the Esse providing automated heating.

[Roger Gunkel]

I can see why people go for the Aga type stoves like the Esse though if you don't want gas. For the price of a diesel stove like the wallas and a decent diesel heater, they come to around the same price. Of course you can still have a soild fuel stove with it and the Esse providing automated heating.

I love the AGA type ranges and cooking on them, plus the comfortable warm homely feel to them, but I think they come under the heading of luxury items and are great if the cost is not a problem and reliance on diesel is acceptable. I am not happy about the uncertainties of diesel fuel, both with the spiralling costs and world fuel situations, so feel more comfortable with what I see as security with coal/wood burning.

 

There is a very intesting thread going on at the moment in my Yachting forum about red diesel, as it is outlawed in some eu countries for boats , with the Belgians already fining boats from any country for having any traces of red in their tanks in Belgian waters. There is apparently discussion between the UK and EU bodies about doing way completely with the taxation allowances on red diesel for boat use and possibly doing away with red diesel completely. That would effectively kill the cheaper heating allowance for fuel on boats and make diesel heating double the current cost.

 

Roger

[Robbo]

I love the AGA type ranges and cooking on them, plus the comfortable warm homely feel to them, but I think they come under the heading of luxury items and are great if the cost is not a problem and reliance on diesel is acceptable. I am not happy about the uncertainties of diesel fuel, both with the spiralling costs and world fuel situations, so feel more comfortable with what I see as security with coal/wood burning.

 

Must admit I was going to go diesel heating (currently refitting boat), and the Lockgate was the one I was looking at as well as some automated heating (I currently have a Mikuni). I've decided to go for a solid fuel stove, mainly because of the feel of a real fire. Currently looking for a modern type looking stove (like the Esse 525) but with a back boiler (any ideas?)

 

[ditchcrawler]

 

If your figures are correct, and I have no reason to assume that they are not, then my boat would need an output of about 4KWHr to match my stove output in the cold weather. That would equate to about 0.4ltrs per hour of diesel, or about 9.6ltrs per day, 67ltrs per week. That ties in with the figures that I kept for my original Eberspacher system and at £0.75p per litre would come to £50 per week. That is bang on the nail of my own experience with diesel heating, but a massive difference to the £20 per week suggested my NbTrickeri for the Heritage Range..

 

 

That is about in line with my Dickinson Stove

[wandering snail]

That is about in line with my Dickinson Stove

£50 a week??? We are an all diesel boat using a Sigmar continuously for cooking, heating and hot water and when it's colder a Morso Squirrel (Lockgate conversion) too that gives yet more heat and feeds the radiators through the boat. Since we got back to UK beginning of November, we've used just 200litres.

[Roger Gunkel]

£50 a week??? We are an all diesel boat using a Sigmar continuously for cooking, heating and hot water and when it's colder a Morso Squirrel (Lockgate conversion) too that gives yet more heat and feeds the radiators through the boat. Since we got back to UK beginning of November, we've used just 200litres.

 

But are we comparing apples with apples here? If you are out at work every day and only using your heating for part of the day, then I can well believe it, but if like me you are on your boat for 24 hours per day every day, I can't see that it is physically possible to maintain a comfortable temperature in sub zero temperatures on 15ltrs of fuel per week, which is what you are saying you have used. 15ltrs per week is enough to heat a 57ft boat for about 5 hours per day.

 

Roger

Edited February 18, 2012 by Roger Gunkel

[wandering snail]

But are we comparing apples with apples here? If you are out at work every day and only using your heating for part of the day, then I can well believe it, but if like me you are on your boat for 24 hours per day every day, I can't see that it is physically possible to maintain a comfortable temperature in sub zero temperatures on 15ltrs of fuel per week, which is what you are saying you have used. 15ltrs per week is enough to heat a 57ft boat for about 5 hours per day.

 

Roger

We are comparing fruit! Praps all portholes, spray insulation and a jumper makes the difference. 17deg at the moment in the front of the boat with just the Sigmar amidships on tick over all night.

[mrsmelly]

We are comparing fruit! Praps all portholes, spray insulation and a jumper makes the difference. 17deg at the moment in the front of the boat with just the Sigmar amidships on tick over all night.

 

Ahh now it makes sense, you like being cold so thats why you dont use any diesel. As others have said it is simply not possible to keep a boat HEATED for liveaboard purposes using such small amounts of oil it is not possible to burn little fuel and produce much heat. I am on my boat 24/7 and when I got up this morning it was shower and then on with the T shirt and trousers, life is too short to wrap up inside the boat.

[wandering snail]

Ahh now it makes sense, you like being cold so thats why you dont use any diesel. As others have said it is simply not possible to keep a boat HEATED for liveaboard purposes using such small amounts of oil it is not possible to burn little fuel and produce much heat. I am on my boat 24/7 and when I got up this morning it was shower and then on with the T shirt and trousers, life is too short to wrap up inside the boat.

I hate being cold so am not! But with the price of diesel being able to swan about in a T shirt in February is not for us. The Morso will be put on this evening and then the temp goes up to 30deg at which point it's turned off!It'll also be used in the daytime when nec. as we don't let the temp drop below 17, that's simply comfortable for us overnight.

BTW, with a separate tank in the bow for 'red',we know how much we're using.

Edited February 18, 2012 by wandering snail

[Robbo]

We are comparing fruit! Praps all portholes, spray insulation and a jumper makes the difference. 17deg at the moment in the front of the boat with just the Sigmar amidships on tick over all night.

 

Which Sigmar do you have? The Sigmar's I've seen, the cookers lowest setting is 5 litres per 24 hours and the heater down to 3.75litres per 24 hours. As beginning of november was over 100 days away you've used less than 2 litres per day, so you can't have had any of these items on 24/7 even at the lowest setting.

 

As you've said boat installation and overall temperature will make a difference, but for using diesel 24/7 isn't as cheap as solid fuel unless you have a tank big enough getting kerosene delivered.

 

Diesel's real advantage of that you can keep it running at a certain temperature 24/7, with solid fuel you need to keep feeding it and keeping the boat warm overnight when it's cold out isn't easy or virtually impossible.

 

I'm having both, solid fuel (mainly because I like a real fire), and diesel for automated use.

[wandering snail]

Which Sigmar do you have? The Sigmar's I've seen, the cookers lowest setting is 5 litres per 24 hours and the heater down to 3.75litres per 24 hours. As beginning of november was over 100 days away you've used less than 2 litres per day, so you can't have had any of these items on 24/7 even at the lowest setting.

 

As you've said boat installation and overall temperature will make a difference, but for using diesel 24/7 isn't as cheap as solid fuel unless you have a tank big enough getting kerosene delivered.

 

Diesel's real advantage of that you can keep it running at a certain temperature 24/7, with solid fuel you need to keep feeding it and keeping the boat warm overnight when it's cold out isn't easy or virtually impossible.

 

I'm having both, solid fuel (mainly because I like a real fire), and diesel for automated use.

Over a warming cup of coffee (18deg, front of boat now with just Sigmar250 on tick over + 3 blade Ecofan, forgot to mention), skipper has sat down and done the figures cos we couldn't believe them either. He pointed out I'd forgotten to include the diesel that was already in the tank when we came back in Nov. so the final tally is - 28litres a week.

If diesel gets too expensive for us, we'll convert the Squirrel back to use wood but will miss the controllability.

[Roger Gunkel]

Over a warming cup of coffee (18deg, front of boat now with just Sigmar250 on tick over + 3 blade Ecofan, forgot to mention), skipper has sat down and done the figures cos we couldn't believe them either. He pointed out I'd forgotten to include the diesel that was already in the tank when we came back in Nov. so the final tally is - 28litres a week.

If diesel gets too expensive for us, we'll convert the Squirrel back to use wood but will miss the controllability.

There are always going to be variables in the way that people live and of course the size of the boat is another factor, your boat may be a significant smaller internal volume than others. Mine for example is a 57x10ft widebeam, which is fully spray foam insulated and fully double glazed, but I like my boat temperature to be a steady 22C. You on the other hand are happy with 17-18C which I and my wife would find unacceptably cold, but would require considerably less heat output. We have friends who always turn their heat off overnight in their house as they say they are warm in bed. They save a lot of fuel but the house is freezing all night, whereas our boat is warm all night.

 

Assuming a good level of insulation, then the simple fact is, that those using less fuel are producing less heat, but as it's not a competition, it really matters not one iota provided we are all happy

 

Roger

[blackrose]

Assuming a good level of insulation, then the simple fact is, that those using less fuel are producing less heat, but as it's not a competition, it really matters not one iota provided we are all happy

 

There's the rub - there are wide variations in the levels of insulation on boats. Although you say your boat is "fully spray foam insulated" personally I don't think that Liverpool Boats were that well sprayfoamed. It's almost impossible to compare fuel consumption & heat retention on boats because of the differences in overall insulation including window configurations, doors and vents.

Edited February 18, 2012 by blackrose

[mrsmelly]

There's the rub - there are wide variations in the levels of insulation on boats. Although you say your boat is "fully spray foam insulated" personally I don't think that Liverpool Boats were that well sprayfoamed. It's almost impossible to compare fuel consumption & heat retention on boats because of the differences in overall insulation including window configurations, doors and vents.

 

Funny you should say that but I very fleetingly looked at a couple of Liverpool/collingwood fitted/sailaways last year and the sprayfoam in parts was abysmal and down to less than i inch as a liveaboard of many years experience this was one of the major points to look for on my purchase. I bought the boat I am on now partly due to the 12/8/4 shell spec and again partly due to the fact the thinnest sprayfoam area I could find was nearly 2 inches with much of it being deeper.

[Roger Gunkel]

There's the rub - there are wide variations in the levels of insulation on boats. Although you say your boat is "fully spray foam insulated" personally I don't think that Liverpool Boats were that well sprayfoamed. It's almost impossible to compare fuel consumption & heat retention on boats because of the differences in overall insulation including window configurations, doors and vents.

You are probably quite right about the thickness of LB boat insulation not being very thick, but I have never seen any figures to show the percentage of insulation value difference for various thicknesses. I'm not convinced that there would be a great practical difference in the heat loss between say 12mm and 40mm, compared to 12mm and 0mm. It would be interesting to see figures from actual tests rather than my assumptions though, for my own interest.

 

As regards different insulation values of boats, I think that even if all boats were identical with the same heating systems, there would still be a huge variation in fuel consumption figures. Some would want 24 hour constant 22C like me, others would require a lower temperature. Some would be out all day and only have heat on at night and some would always turn their heat off at night. Of course there would also be those who have their doors and windows open all day while others have everything battened down.

 

All we know when asked for advice, is that for each litre or Kg of fuel burned, there will be a maximum BTU value produced whatever you burn it in. We can also only offer advice based on general requirements, insulation and situations and there will always be people at both ends of the scale with different experiences.

 

Roger