Breasting Up

[nigel carton]

I'd get the kettle on.

 

Does that help?

 

Yep I'm with you on this one

[carlt]

OK, Phylis has postulated that the owner is not there. What if I wish to leave the mooring? Are you saying that I cannot do so because I might become liable for any damage to the moved craft?

Not at all.

 

You can slip out, tying the boat back up, using reasonable care not to cause damage.

[Naughty Cal]

My official line is 22mm Nelson spun polypropylene, but I suspect parcel string might be the answer from most n/b owners.

 

I don't know if UK river navigations have anything to say in their by-laws, but just about all the continental countries say something to the effect that the owner of any moored craft must allow another to tie alongside unless that would impede navigation, and that the owner must permit the crew and occupants of that vessel access to the shore across theirs.

 

Or did you mean breasting up while under way?

 

 

In reality most river users are only too happy to allow other vessels to moor alongside. Moorings on river navigations can be few and far between, riverbanks are privately owned so casual mooring is often not allowed and for safety reasons desginated moorings are often the safest option. Those who use the rivers on a regular basis respect this, it is those who rarely venture off the canals that find it to be a culture shock.

[Chris Pink]

There isn't one!

 

BW have no policy whatsoever.

EA have a policy of encouraging boaters to display a sticker if they are happy for people to breast up to them (and by elimination, if you don't display, you can choose not to permit it)

 

BW could use its powers under s43 to require it at any particular location (or generally), but in the absence of them doing so, it is up to the boater who is already moored whether he allows it.

 

Breasting up without permission is a trespass.

 

Up pops Troll, so predictable.

[Naughty Cal]

Not at all.

 

You can slip out, tying the boat back up, using reasonable care not to cause damage.

 

Exactly and you neednt untie both ends either. It is not a difficult manouvre to get out from inside a rafted boat.

 

A pity that he didn't consider that my boat is equally privately owned isn't it?

 

The majority of boats are privately owned. So what?

[RLWP]

Up pops Troll, so predictable.

 

First making it clear that I don't support Dave's ludicrous arguments or his bizarre way of defending a fabricated position...

 

Pot, Kettle, Black, Chris.

 

Richard

[mayalld]

Trespass to chattels, or goods, relies on intent to interfere with possession, or cause damage.

 

I could come along and breast up, against your boat, cock it up and put my bows through your window.

 

You could then sue me (though I would hope that our insurance companies would deal wit it) but not using trespass, because there was no intent.

 

At least you acknowledge that trespass to goods exists :-)

 

However, you fell at the final hurdle. It isn't only an intent to cause damage, it is an intent to interfere with posession which is a trespass.

 

Others have already suggested that I cannot move the other boat. As I cannot leave the mooring without moving the other boat, his mooring there has interfered with my abiolity to make use of the boat, and hence a trespass.

 

Not at all.

 

You can slip out, tying the boat back up, using reasonable care not to cause damage.

 

How is that different from completely moving the boat, taking similar reasonable care?

[Naughty Cal]

At least you acknowledge that trespass to goods exists :-)

 

However, you fell at the final hurdle. It isn't only an intent to cause damage, it is an intent to interfere with posession which is a trespass.

 

Others have already suggested that I cannot move the other boat. As I cannot leave the mooring without moving the other boat, his mooring there has interfered with my abiolity to make use of the boat, and hence a trespass.

 

What a load of nonsense.

[mayalld]

The majority of boats are privately owned. So what?

Phylis suggested that I couldn't tie the boat up elsewhere, because "elsewhere" was privately owned.

 

I simply ask "If the fact that the bank is privately owned precludes me mooring them there, why do they imagine that it is OK to moor to my boat, which is equally privately owned".

[RLWP]

What a load of nonsense.

 

You're very polite today.

 

Richard

[mayalld]

What a load of nonsense.

 

I just love it when you engage in reasoned argument.

[carlt]

At least you acknowledge that trespass to goods exists :-)

 

However, you fell at the final hurdle. It isn't only an intent to cause damage, it is an intent to interfere with posession which is a trespass.

 

Others have already suggested that I cannot move the other boat. As I cannot leave the mooring without moving the other boat, his mooring there has interfered with my abiolity to make use of the boat, and hence a trespass.

I did not fall at any hurdle.

 

As long as you use reasonable care, to move the breasted up boat, without causing damage then there is nothing stopping you from moving.

 

As it is reasonable to assume that the owner of the boat expects you to move the boat, if you wish to leave, then you are not committing a trespass, any more than the owner of the breasted up boat is.

 

Your argument is ridiculous Dave because of the absence of intent, on either side.

 

I simply ask "If the fact that the bank is privately owned precludes me mooring them there, why do they imagine that it is OK to moor to my boat, which is equally privately owned".

Because, I imagine, Phylis assumed that the mooring, where the breasting up occurred, was full.

 

If there is sufficient space, on the mooring, to accommodate the breasted up boat, then I would single it out, using reasonable care not to cause damage.

 

No trespass committed, because no intent to deprive possession or cause damage existed.

[Guest]

We would have never managed on the broads in the late 60s and 70's if we got our 'knickers in a twist' over breasting up - sometimes at the busy spots like Oulton broad you would be up to four or five boats abreast, otherwise boats would have simply just not been able to moor.

 

It's less common now that there is less boats on the system there but we still breasted at Reedham last time we holidayed there in 2006

 

 

..

Edited February 8, 2011 by MJG

[mayalld]

I did not fall at any hurdle.

 

As long as you use reasonable care, to move the breasted up boat, without causing damage then there is nothing stopping you from moving.

 

As it is reasonable to assume that the owner of the boat expects you to move the boat, if you wish to leave, then you are not committing a trespass, any more than the owner of the breasted up boat is.

 

Your argument is ridiculous Dave because of the absence of intent, on either side.

 

In that case, it is equally reasonable for me to move their boat away. Had they enquired before taking it upon themselves to moor, I would have informed them that;

• We will be departing at 07:00, so don't expect a lie in.
• We have two dogs that can hear a flea fart at 100 yards. If it is your intention to fo to the pub, your return and crossing our boat will cause them to start barking loudly when they hear you on our boat.

[Naughty Cal]

I just love it when you engage in reasoned argument.

 

David your stance on this matter is so silly that only you need to provide a "reasoned argument" to try and defend your nonsensical attitude. The rest of us, well we just sit back, whilst laughing and pointing

[carlt]

In that case, it is equally reasonable for me to move their boat away.

Jumped in too soon, Dave.

 

That is exactly what I have said, in my next post.

[alan_fincher]

Up pops Troll, so predictable.

Possibly a bit tough on Dave.

 

OP has surely been on the forum long enough to have seen this tired debate a few times already, surely ?

 

Didn't they know exactly what they were starting at the very first post ?

[RLWP]

In that case, it is equally reasonable for me to move their boat away. Had they enquired before taking it upon themselves to moor, I would have informed them that;

• We will be departing at 07:00, so don't expect a lie in.
• We have two dogs that can hear a flea fart at 100 yards. If it is your intention to fo to the pub, your return and crossing our boat will cause them to start barking loudly when they hear you on our boat.

 

Excellent. Now you are back to the "put the kettle on and talk to people" solution. That would appear to be the CWDF "official" policy

 

Richard

 

Unless you mean talking through your solicitor...

[Naughty Cal]

It would be interesting to see how Davids stance on rafting up would change if he was the boater looking for a mooring

[mayalld]

David your stance on this matter is so silly that only you need to provide a "reasoned argument" to try and defend your nonsensical attitude. The rest of us, well we just sit back, whilst laughing and pointing

 

My past experiences of allowing people to breast up have been near universally bad.

 

By and large, the people who wanted to breast up have done so because they hadn't planned around finding a mooring, believed that they had a right to do so, and showed absolutely no consideration for others in terms of arriving back from the pub quietly, or in getting the brats NOT to keep running back and forth over our stern, upsetting the dogs.

 

As such, unless I am satisfied that somebody isn't going to be a problem for us, then unless there is a condition attached to the place that I am moored requiring it, I will NOT allow people to breast up to us, and I will not seek to breast up to others.

 

It would be interesting to see how Davids stance on rafting up would change if he was the boater looking for a mooring

 

My stance would be, and has been on several occasions "Well, I should have planned that better, but it is my fault, my problem, and press on"

[carlt]

As such, unless I am satisfied that somebody isn't going to be a problem for us, then unless there is a condition attached to the place that I am moored requiring it, I will NOT allow people to breast up to us, and I will not seek to breast up to others.

Perhaps it is unreasonable of you to moor up in an area that you can expect to fill up?

 

Still no law of trespass, to assist you, though.

 

Maybe you could turn your attention towards the ECHR....That would put a new slant on the debate.

[Naughty Cal]

My past experiences of allowing people to breast up have been near universally bad.

 

By and large, the people who wanted to breast up have done so because they hadn't planned around finding a mooring, believed that they had a right to do so, and showed absolutely no consideration for others in terms of arriving back from the pub quietly, or in getting the brats NOT to keep running back and forth over our stern, upsetting the dogs.

 

As such, unless I am satisfied that somebody isn't going to be a problem for us, then unless there is a condition attached to the place that I am moored requiring it, I will NOT allow people to breast up to us, and I will not seek to breast up to others.

 

And what if you HAVE to let another boat raft up or you HAVE to raft up to another boat. I really hope one day David that you find yourself in the situation where you have no choice but to raft up, yet no one will allow you too. You may then see that your silly stance is nothing but being pig headed.

 

You may have had a bad experience in the past but that doesnt mean that everyone should be tarred with the same brush. We have met some very nice and interesting people through having to raft upto them. It isnt a matetr of choice you HAVE to raft up in some locations.

 

My stance would be, and has been on several occasions "Well, I should have planned that better, but it is my fault, my problem, and press on"

 

That isnt always an option. You are just proving how little of the UK waterways you actually get out and see. Quite comical really

[alan_fincher]

It would be interesting to see how Davids stance on rafting up would change if he was the boater looking for a mooring

IIRC Dave's stance is that anybody who is idiot enough not to plan far enough ahead, and to allow enough time to find an alternate mooring, if their originally hoped for choice is full, deserves all they get.

 

Actually I'll put my head above the parapet and say that I don't much like the idea (on canals at least) that anybody just breasts up with an already moored but unattended boat, even if there is no sign welcoming it.

 

I'm told this is actually expected at honey-pot London moorings, but I have never heard of it elsewhere, and I think it's usually a step too far.

 

I can't ever actually remember not being able to moor somewhere near where I wanted to, (on canals), except in London, and have never yet had to go alongside anybody, I think. All our boating is done in the school holidays, presumably the busiest times, so I actually think the problem is overstated.

 

I'm not talking about rivers, before I get an earful from Phylis!

[Guest]

Dave,

 

What's your stance on crossing another boat in a lock or others crossing yours?

 

Is it more reasonable? - do you 'allow' it.

[Naughty Cal]

Dave,

 

What's your stance on crossing another boat in a lock or others crossing yours?

 

Is it more reasonable? - do you 'allow' it.

 

Of course not that would be tresspass