Do Batteries Fail Suddenly?

[Jaysay]

My leisure battery is 9 years old now, rarely needs topping up with water, and - as far as I can tell from services etc - is still in good nick.

 

My question is this: how much warning will I get that it is failing? If we are talking about a gradual dimming of lights etc over several days or weeks then - fine - I can get a replacement in my own time. If, however, we are talking about nothing working one morning when I am on a cruise, that could be severely inconvenient. I am loath to replace it just on age alone, but will do so if I am not going to get much warning. Not sure if it is relevant, but I don't use the boat as a live-aboard, clock up maybe 250 engine hours a year, and while dormant the battery is trickle charged by shore power.

 

All advice welcome!

[Pretty Funked Up]

[Guest]

My leisure battery is 9 years old now, rarely needs topping up with water, and - as far as I can tell from services etc - is still in good nick.

 

My question is this: how much warning will I get that it is failing? If we are talking about a gradual dimming of lights etc over several days or weeks then - fine - I can get a replacement in my own time. If, however, we are talking about nothing working one morning when I am on a cruise, that could be severely inconvenient. I am loath to replace it just on age alone, but will do so if I am not going to get much warning. Not sure if it is relevant, but I don't use the boat as a live-aboard, clock up maybe 250 engine hours a year, and while dormant the battery is trickle charged by shore power.

 

All advice welcome!

My last two lots of leisure batteries have died gradually.

 

Oddly my starter battery started the engine absolutely fine one morning, and later that day wouldn't even turn the engine over. A new one was an instant cure. So starter batteries can definitely die instantly in my experience,so perhaps leisure ones can?

[DHutch]

They can do, if a cell collapses. yes.

 

Otherwise its just slow decline with age.

[Gibbo]

Usually they fail slowly over a quite lengthy period of time with a continual small daily reduction in capacity. Occasionally they fail suddenly with a duff cell.

 

However, even the gradual failure can appear as sudden (and in fact usually does)...

 

The batteries start off at 400ahrs. The user needs 250ahrs overnight and cruises every day. This works fine (though he is slightly discharging them a bit too much).

 

He contnues with this use for 18 months and all is fine. At the end of the night he switches his lights off and goes to bed, with the batteries at 5% state of charge. But everything works.

 

A week later they have lost a little bit more capacity and now, doing exactly the same things, the TV switches off halfway through his usual film and the lights go dim because they are flat.

 

As far as the user is concerened they failed suddenly because last week they were fine, this week they're not.

[BlueStringPudding]

Usually they fail slowly over a quite lengthy period of time with a continual small daily reduction in capacity. Occasionally they fail suddenly with a duff cell.

 

However, even the gradual failure can appear as sudden (and in fact usually does)...

 

The batteries start off at 400ahrs. The user needs 250ahrs overnight and cruises every day. This works fine (though he is slightly discharging them a bit too much).

 

He contnues with this use for 18 months and all is fine. At the end of the night he switches his lights off and goes to bed, with the batteries at 5% state of charge. But everything works.

 

A week later they have lost a little bit more capacity and now, doing exactly the same things, the TV switches off halfway through his usual film and the lights go dim because they are flat.

 

As far as the user is concerened they failed suddenly because last week they were fine, this week they're not.

 

That, I think's what happened to mine (since getting a fridge). The batteries are three and a half years old. I've had the fridge 18 months or so now and it's by far the biggest draw on them. The icing on the cake was leaving the boat for 2 weeks (with all electrics turned off, of course) in the deep canal freeze over Christmas and New Year which has taken the batteries from a state of "not as good as they were but still bearable" to "kackapoopoo" apparently suddenly.

[Strads]

But is this "slow" decline due in part to only partially recharging or put another way not fully charging each time?

 

Eg Do people fully recharge every time or recharge for a few hours hoping that was enough?

 

just a thought.

[Gibbo]

But is this "slow" decline due in part to only partially recharging or put another way not fully charging each time?

 

Eg Do people fully recharge every time or recharge for a few hours hoping that was enough?

 

just a thought.

 

They "decline" whatever you do. They are consumeables, like a pint of beer. The very act of using it means it gets smaller.

 

Not recharging fully, deeper discharges, leaving in a discharged condition etc. They all accelerate the decline. But it happens no matter what you do.

[Tim Doran]

They "decline" whatever you do. They are consumeables, like a pint of beer. The very act of using it means it gets smaller.

 

Not recharging fully, deeper discharges, leaving in a discharged condition etc. They all accelerate the decline. But it happens no matter what you do.

 

Please dont drink battery acid, it is nothing like beer. The hangover leaves a buring feeling in your stomach for some time

 

[nb Innisfree]

They "decline" whatever you do. They are consumeables, like a pint of beer. The very act of using it means it gets smaller.

Not recharging fully, deeper discharges, leaving in a discharged condition etc. They all accelerate the decline. But it happens no matter what you do.

 

True, so very true....

[Gibbo]

True, so very true....

 

I find the opposite in certain regards. Well, I used to when I was young.

[mayalld]

Please dont drink battery acid, it is nothing like beer. The hangover leaves a buring feeling in your stomach for some time

 

 

A bit like l*g*r then?

[Robin2]

But is this "slow" decline due in part to only partially recharging or put another way not fully charging each time?

 

Eg Do people fully recharge every time or recharge for a few hours hoping that was enough?

 

just a thought.

 

If the above was more than a rhetorical question I'm not sure it has been answered adequately.

 

Of course batteries decline, but charging them fully from time to time seems to be essential to get the best from them - perhaps even more important (within reason) than avoiding deeper discharges. However it does not seem to be necessary to charge them fully after every discharge - once every 2 - 3 weeks appears to be enough to prevent permanent sulphation. And I haven't found any evidence that leaving them partially charged for that period significantly shortens their life compared with fully charging after every discharge.

[Gibbo]

If the above was more than a rhetorical question I'm not sure it has been answered adequately.

 

Of course batteries decline, but charging them fully from time to time seems to be essential to get the best from them - perhaps even more important (within reason) than avoiding deeper discharges. However it does not seem to be necessary to charge them fully after every discharge - once every 2 - 3 weeks appears to be enough to prevent permanent sulphation. And I haven't found any evidence that leaving them partially charged for that period significantly shortens their life compared with fully charging after every discharge.

 

<sigh>

 

Robin, Robin, Robin

 

When are you going to stop ignoring reality and pretending that evidence to the contrary doesn't exist so that you can continue to believe what you want to be reality as opposed to what actually is reality?

 

but charging them fully from time to time seems to be essential to get the best from them

 

But fully recharging them everytime gets even better from them.

 

However it does not seem to be necessary to charge them fully after every discharge - once every 2 - 3 weeks appears to be enough to prevent permanent sulphation

 

No. Nothing will prevent permanent sulfation. It will happen eventually (unless the battery actually breaks first). Fully charging them every 2 to 3 weeks will reduce this in comparison to never fully recharging. Fully recharging them every time they are used will reduce it even further.

 

And I haven't found any evidence that leaving them partially charged for that period significantly shortens their life compared with fully charging after every discharge

 

You haven't looked very far then.

[Neil TNC]

True, so very true....

 

Lack of use?

Ah!...this must be why NB Earnest's single Numax 12v bowthruster battery has lasted 10 years!

Edited January 28, 2011 by Neil Arlidge

[Robin2]

 

But fully recharging them everytime gets even better from them.

 

 

No. Nothing will prevent permanent sulfation. It will happen eventually (unless the battery actually breaks first). Fully charging them every 2 to 3 weeks will reduce this in comparison to never fully recharging. Fully recharging them every time they are used will reduce it even further.

 

 

I had not intended to start another bi-lateral discussion but I can't let this go unchecked.

 

You continue to ignore economics. I await with interest your analysis that shows that it is better value (taking both fuel and battery costs into account) to charge the batteries fully every day rather than once every 2 - 3 weeks (or whatever period you consider optimal).

 

Statements like "nothing will prevent permanent sulfation" are true but not helpful. In the practical world we just want to prevent enough sulfation to keep the batteries going for an economic length of time. From what I have read a FULL charge every 2 - 3 weeks would be sufficient (actually my information says 30 days so I am being conservative). Perhaps I should have said in my previous post that I assumed there would be a partial charge after every discharge, but I took that was a given.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Robin2

[Gibbo]

Statements like "nothing will prevent permanent sulfation" are true but not helpful.

 

 

Whereas statements such as...

 

However it does not seem to be necessary to charge them fully after every discharge - once every 2 - 3 weeks appears to be enough to prevent permanent sulphation.

 

Are just plain wrong. Get that? WRONG. Does that make it somehow helpful?

[Chris Pink]

I had not intended to start another bi-lateral discussion but I can't let this go unchecked.

 

You continue to ignore economics. I await with interest your analysis that shows that it is better value (taking both fuel and battery costs into account) to charge the batteries fully every day rather than once every 2 - 3 weeks (or whatever period you consider optimal).

 

Statements like "nothing will prevent permanent sulfation" are true but not helpful. In the practical world we just want to prevent enough sulfation to keep the batteries going for an economic length of time. From what I have read a FULL charge every 2 - 3 weeks would be sufficient (actually my information says 30 days so I am being conservative). Perhaps I should have said in my previous post that I assumed there would be a partial charge after every discharge, but I took that was a given.

 

You two will never resolve this argument.

 

I tried, many moons ago to get Gibbo to talk about real world 'off-grid' battery use. He refuses. As far as he is concerned the only 'right' way to charge a battery is to charge it to 100% every time. As you say in the real world, ain't going to happen. There's a 100 or so liveaboard boaters, read 'off grid' within 10 miles of where I am and they will not charge their batteries for 8-10 hours every day or two. Not ever, never.

 

So the best regime for them is the one you propose, charging to 80% (2 hours) each day or two, to 100% (8-10 hours) every week or two ( i disagree with your 30 days, empirically I would say a week to 10 days). It is not the best regime for maximum battery life, it is the best real world solution to using lead acid batteries in the real world of liveaboard boating. The more normal real world practice is to only charge to 80% (2 hours) as routine and then possible 90% (4 hours) on cruising days.

 

Boaters who live like this appear to get through cheap leisure batteries every two to three years depending on when they consider their useful life to be over -Gibbo's post at the beginning of this thread sums it up nicely.

 

Gibbo, despite his expertise and vast knowledge, will not entertain any other solution to charging batteries other than his so, like me, you might as well walk away now.

[mayalld]

You two will never resolve this argument.

 

I tried, many moons ago to get Gibbo to talk about real world 'off-grid' battery use. He refuses. As far as he is concerned the only 'right' way to charge a battery is to charge it to 100% every time. As you say in the real world, ain't going to happen. There's a 100 or so liveaboard boaters, read 'off grid' within 10 miles of where I am and they will not charge their batteries for 8-10 hours every day or two. Not ever, never.

 

 

Perhaps some of them should cruise, which would charge their batteries better, and ensure that there are a different 100 boaters in that 20 mile stretch next month. Who knows, perhaps even you might become more widely travelled.

[luctor et emergo]

My batteries should last well then. I run the engine for about 6 to 8 hours most days, and only use some small 12 volt lights, and the occasional phone charge, in the evening. in the day time, the pumps are used when the engine runs. Perhaps my batteries will last forever.

 

 

Perhaps some of them should cruise, which would charge their batteries better, and ensure that there are a different 100 boaters in that 20 mile stretch next month. Who knows, perhaps even you might become more widely travelled.

 

 

I must try to wave at you Dave, next time you cruise the K&A.

 

[Gibbo]

You two will never resolve this argument.

 

<Snip>

 

I have never denied this. I have sat back whilst people have come up with various ideas.

 

However when someone makes a statement that is completely incorrect (such as "charging them a bit now again will be ok") then I will correct that statement.

 

Your particular beef appears to be that lead acid batteries take a long time to charge and you don't like that. That's fair enough, you don't like it. Your choice. It doesn't change reality.

[Chris Pink]

 

Your particular beef appears to be that lead acid batteries take a long time to charge and you don't like that. That's fair enough, you don't like it. Your choice. It doesn't change reality.

 

According to Wikipedia (so it must be wrong, no?) the lead acid battery was invented in 1859 by Gaston Plante.

 

It is amazing to me that it's still the most cost-efficient way of storing 12V electricity off-grid.

 

Whereas I would love an energy storage method that fitted my lifestyle I have to accept the affordable 200Ah 2 hour to 100% battery is still some way in the future.

 

The 12 step prayer comes to mind.

 

 

I must try to wave at you Dave, next time you cruise the K&A.

 

 

but but but Henk - Lime Green Dave knows everything there is to know about a canal he's never seen let alone boated on.

 

Whereas you and me, who know the place well can have a good giggle at his imaginative picture of all the liveaboards around here cruising 10 hours a day every day.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Chris Pink

[Gibbo]

Whereas I would love an energy storage method that fitted my lifestyle I have to accept the affordable 200Ah 2 hour to 100% battery is still some way in the future.

 

"Affordable" is indeed the important point. It does exist now if you remove the requirement for it to be affordable. I had a lithium polymer on test a few months ago. 40ahr. Charged from very nearly flat to full in 45 minutes. But at 180 quid for 40ahrs it's not really much use to us peasant boaters.

[Chris Pink]

But at 180 quid for 40ahrs it's not really much use to us peasant boaters.

 

It's not that far away then.

 

That's only about twice the cost of the Odyssey batteries or 4.5 times the Trojans.

 

To what SOC can they go?

[soldthehouse]