Planning a life afloat

[Minos]

We've just got back from looking at a Dutch barge that a friend of a friend is refitting.

 

It's lovely, it's twice as big, it's much more generous in its space...

 

...but Circe & I came away wondering if that is what we want.

 

It'll have room for the sunbeds and icemaker, yes, and if we were feeling brave we could hop from estuary to estuary around Europe, but it's not a narrowboat. It's very different.

 

Well, we have the luxury of plenty of time to think.

 

 

What you need to consider is, if you go for a 62' what areas would you NOT be able to reach because of your length? You might not be able to get through a few locks on the L&L in an area you're not bothered about but what about the areas beyond there - would you want to miss out on the northern parts of the network?

Very good point. We've already cruised parts of the L&L near Skipton - it is stunning and I wouldn't want to miss it just because I put a Wurlitzer in the saloon.

[soldthehouse]

We've just got back from looking at a Dutch barge that a friend of a friend is refitting.

 

It's lovely, it's twice as big, it's much more generous in its space...

 

...but Circe & I came away wondering if that is what we want.

 

It'll have room for the sunbeds and icemaker, yes, and if we were feeling brave we could hop from estuary to estuary around Europe, but it's not a narrowboat. It's very different.

 

Well, we have the luxury of plenty of time to think.

 

 

 

Very good point. We've already cruised parts of the L&L near Skipton - it is stunning and I wouldn't want to miss it just because I put a Wurlitzer in the saloon.

I'm currently building a boat to live on at 54ft, so we wont be constantly wondering will it or wont it, we want to relax not be planning every lock, it would defeat the object for us

[Minos]

I'm currently building a boat to live on at 54ft, so we wont be constantly wondering will it or wont it, we want to relax not be planning every lock, it would defeat the object for us

Indeed. And a hop across coastal waters to the next estuary would take much more planning than a gentle cruise to the next pub.

[Tam & Di]

I love the way you think.

 

Personally, I would go for that.

 

However, the problem is that we want everything. We want to do all the UK (maybe happy to sacrifice a couple of bits if necessary) and then do Europe. Or as much of it as we can.

 

The issue is where the compromise takes place.

 

57' will do everything - but what is 57' like to live on? what is 57' like in France? Germany? Poland? The Czech Republic?

 

 

Circe seems to imply later that your mails are slightly "tongue in cheek", but if you really want to cruise France, Germany, Poland, Czech Republic then a 57' n/b is not a plausible craft. If you want to take it to France and keep it on the Midi or in Burgundy then it can work. Having read the "propellor keeps falling of my boat" thread emphasises how inadequate many new-build craft (wide and narrow) are for serious boating on grown-up waters. There are plenty of design elements required for the cruising grounds you mention which surpass the choice of 1 jacuzzi or 2, and to mention just a few among them: large fore deck for working space in commercial locks with working traffic, decent side decks so you can get around the boat safely (major reason why narrow boats and most widebeam ones are dangerous), insulation to cope with temperature range of -20 to 40*C (foam spray keeps you warmer in winter but equally important keeps you cool in summer), large fuel, water, and crap tanks (there are very few far-flung facilities for filling and emptying these respectively), a get-out-of-jail-free card for Eastern Europe (or plenty of money for use as bribes and fines).

Edited January 15, 2011 by Tam & Di

[Joshua]

Hi Guys,

 

Interesting reading so far! We sold up 7 years ago, selling the house contents on Ebay wherever possible, and we had a 59ft built to our spec up on the L & L. .....................................

 

Thanks for your enlightening post.

It has got me rethinking my own plans.

Firstly, boat size.

I had initially worked on the principle of maximise living space minus 4 feet to make locking easier and just accept that I wouldn’t be able to travel a few canals = 68ft.

Missing out a few canals (I thought I could always rent or borrow a boat to explore those) seemed preferable to loosing the space.

It would be nice to know if there was anyone CCing with a 68ft boat who have any regrets about where it can’t go?

 

The second point is sale of house contents.

I would be interested to know if it was worth it.

My partner and I are following in your footsteps and have just cleared out our home in preparation for its sale.

We have 20 rooms full of ‘stuff’, 35 years collection of what I always thought had some value until I began trying to sell it.

My first thought (to get rid of it all in one go), was auction, but my local auctioneer told me it was hardly worth the trouble boxing it all up for sale as the market was so dead.

There is far too much to sell via local classified announcements and besides I would then have to spend half my life answering the phone and accommodating curious buyers.

E-bay was obviously a thought but then I wondered about all that cataloguing and photographing and posting.

So, would you do it again?

I would obviously prefer to raise cash for future living expenses but given the almighty job of selling it, if the return is relatively small I would prefer to give it all to charity.

 

Joshua

[soldthehouse]

Thanks for your enlightening post.

It has got me rethinking my own plans.

Firstly, boat size.

I had initially worked on the principle of maximise living space minus 4 feet to make locking easier and just accept that I wouldn’t be able to travel a few canals = 68ft.

Missing out a few canals (I thought I could always rent or borrow a boat to explore those) seemed preferable to loosing the space.

It would be nice to know if there was anyone CCing with a 68ft boat who have any regrets about where it can’t go?

 

The second point is sale of house contents.

I would be interested to know if it was worth it.

My partner and I are following in your footsteps and have just cleared out our home in preparation for its sale.

We have 20 rooms full of ‘stuff’, 35 years collection of what I always thought had some value until I began trying to sell it.

My first thought (to get rid of it all in one go), was auction, but my local auctioneer told me it was hardly worth the trouble boxing it all up for sale as the market was so dead.

There is far too much to sell via local classified announcements and besides I would then have to spend half my life answering the phone and accommodating curious buyers.

E-bay was obviously a thought but then I wondered about all that cataloguing and photographing and posting.

So, would you do it again?

I would obviously prefer to raise cash for future living expenses but given the almighty job of selling it, if the return is relatively small I would prefer to give it all to charity.

 

Joshua

We did the same moving out of a large farmhouse. We selected the most precious and sentimental stuff to put in our now small house. Then we told all and sundry to helpthemselves to the rest and had an open house day [two days actually] the rest went to charity. We had very little to dispose of at the end. We decided early on that the work and expense of trying to sell our "much loved but overvalued stuff" was not gong to be worth the effort and a quick clean break would be better. However in time honoured tradition Val has now aquired a house full of curiosities in our stop gap house!!!!!! back to the drawing board

[ymu]

Thanks for your enlightening post.

It has got me rethinking my own plans.

Firstly, boat size.

I had initially worked on the principle of maximise living space minus 4 feet to make locking easier and just accept that I wouldn’t be able to travel a few canals = 68ft.

Missing out a few canals (I thought I could always rent or borrow a boat to explore those) seemed preferable to loosing the space.

It would be nice to know if there was anyone CCing with a 68ft boat who have any regrets about where it can’t go?

 

The second point is sale of house contents.

I would be interested to know if it was worth it.

My partner and I are following in your footsteps and have just cleared out our home in preparation for its sale.

We have 20 rooms full of ‘stuff’, 35 years collection of what I always thought had some value until I began trying to sell it.

My first thought (to get rid of it all in one go), was auction, but my local auctioneer told me it was hardly worth the trouble boxing it all up for sale as the market was so dead.

There is far too much to sell via local classified announcements and besides I would then have to spend half my life answering the phone and accommodating curious buyers.

E-bay was obviously a thought but then I wondered about all that cataloguing and photographing and posting.

So, would you do it again?

I would obviously prefer to raise cash for future living expenses but given the almighty job of selling it, if the return is relatively small I would prefer to give it all to charity.

 

Joshua

We had much the same thoughts on boat length, although 70' would have been our ideal. We ended up with 65' because the boat (and price) was right for us. If we ever want to do the northern canals, we'll try for a boat swap, but we'll probably take a couple of years getting from Birmingham to Bristol, so I think it'll be a while before the issue crops up.

 

We didn't have anything much of value in the house, so we gave away what we could and got a house clearance/recycling company in for the rest. They gave us a quote for clearing the place, and then we agreed a rebate based on the sellable stuff they were taking. If your stuff is worth more, it might be worth trying to find an ebayer with some storage space and coming to an arrangement with them if you don't have the time/energy to sell it yourself.

 

Otherwise, there are loads of charities which will take stuff away and find a good home for it. Furniture and white goods might be best donated direct to people who need them - lots of people get rehoused in empty properties with no means of furnishing them. There are a lot of small local charities who sort this sort of stuff out - the Ladywood Furniture Project is the one we contacted in Brum. If google doesn't turn up anything local to you, Shelter might be able to advise.

[Jim Batty]

Circe and I are planning to live afloat as soon as the children are off the payroll. The only question is, 'How?' ...

 

We are planning to live on the waterways for decades. However we do it, it will be comfortable.

 

Now we've got that out of the way, here's the serious question: with a 62' narrowboat we can cruise the whole of the waterways except for that nasty little bit around Halifax, and still have fun in Europe for a decade or so. With a Dutch barge, huge amounts of the waterways are off-limits, but European waterways will be easier.

 

Which would you go for, and why?

 

 

It sounds like you are considering two entirely different trips! Are you sure you don't want a vessel that can go round the world too? (Just joking!)

 

 

We live on a 53' narrowboat and because of its clever layout suits us fine. In a perfect world I'd love to add 5' and an 'office/studio/library'. And double the size of the water tank.

 

 

If I were going to wander around Europe, and money were no object, I'd love to have a good-sized Dutch steel cruiser. Beautiful looking craft inside and out, good balance of outdoor decking and interior living space. Good on large canals, great on rivers, reasonable on open water.

 

But I suppose a good Dutch barge would take the 'rough and tumble' of European locks better.

 

I know it is done ... but isn't narrowboating on the European system a bit of a stunt? I mean, you have to be up for the stunt and hair-raising encounters with 120' peniche (and hoping to get a book out of it), otherwise it's a lot of extra work.

[bargemast]

 

 

I know it is done ... but isn't narrowboating on the European system a bit of a stunt? I mean, you have to be up for the stunt and hair-raising encounters with 120' peniche (and hoping to get a book out of it), otherwise it's a lot of extra work.

 

 

If you think of hair-raising encounters with a 120' peniche (the smallest barges still trading are rarely less then 126'- 38.50m), how about encounters with barges like this one that is 442' x 55' (135m x 17m) and they sometimes push a similar sized barge aswell.

 

photo:kustvaartforum

 

Not the sort of boat you're likely to encounter on the G.U. or K&A. and on rivers where you meet those there are many more like that as it will be on busy main waterways where a 126' barge looks like a dingy (leave alone a narrowboat).

 

Peter.

[Hippoclides]

We set off from Wakefield - an area which is all broad locks, since leaving there in July, and travelling round much of the north half of the network (T&M, River Soar, SUC, Coventry etc) we have only seen a handful of broad locks (coming off the T&M onto the River Trent/Soar), other than that they are all narrow locks, so in order to navigate the majority of the waterways, which it sounds like you intend to do, you would need a narrowboat.

Just because you are travelling predominantly on narrow waterways, it doesn't prove that the majority of the UK waterways are narrow.

 

Of course a widebeam will not be able to navigate some very significant and enjoyable parts of the system. If the OP dreams of the BCN, for example, then narrow is the only way to go. However, if he can afford a seagoing widebeam, this opens up the possibility of the Broads and the entirely separate Scottish canals, as well as the European network, and overcomes the problem of the northern and southern wide canals not being linked, as a spot of coastal navigation can take him to one from the other. A widebeam of course also provides much more space to live in. A widebeam "narrowboat", otoh, is of course trapped without craning out, so is not a good choice.

 

As regards length, there are RCD class C barges of 57' and below (so the Calder & Hebble remain navigable). However the OP may find it useful to look at the summary on the Rugby Boats website, under "Hints'n'tips"->"Size Matters" (sorry can't link direct).

[Neil TNC]

 

Well, we have the luxury of plenty of time to think.

 

 

Don't think too long, get your self a 58ft6ins long 6ft10ins wide (some modern narrowboats are not!) narrowboat, not too deep draughted, not too much air draught. NB Earnest is an ideal compromise in these dimensions. Doing "everything" over here will take you 6+ years, even if you are really going for it, and everything happens to be open, with no stoppages. Tidal planning will also mean only certain stuff can be attempted at certain times of the year (time and tide waits for no man)

Then do Ireland (that's another couple of years)...then, if you are not past-it, get a barge for Le Continot.

 

This in TNC's idea of doing everything over here and in Ireland (the mundane stuff is mostly left out)....including all the tidal stuff you will ever want to attempt in a narrowboat...and in the case of "Ocean Princess"...stuff you will not want to do!

TNC On Tour Linky

[Minos]

Some very interesting information - and very much appreciated.

 

We've had a good look at a Dutch barge still under construction, and after visiting friends today we popped into a marina to look at a couple of Aquilines and a Hanbury (and have a good laugh at some bloody silly thing tied up between them) and Circe and I could very happily clamber aboard the Hanbury and disappear into the network.

 

The Dutch barge is tempting, but for the price difference, we could live on a little NB and explore Europe in hire boats several times a year within budget. And the bottom line is that there is something about a narrowboat that appeals to us, and we just don't feel the same way about a Dutch barge. At the moment.

 

How much is it to hire a boat for a couple of weeks on the Danube?

[Minos]

Oooh!

[jim and pat dalton]

As a newby member to the forum and with a whole 1 weeks boating experiance beneath my belt, I'm very interested in this thread.

 

We are considering selling our house for one last adventure, rather than exchange it for a sweaty seat in an old folks home 20years hence

 

Life afloat appeals and we have just returned from a freezing biting cold, occaisionly iced up, stuck on mid channel mud between locks, heaving and swearing at a sticking swing bridge, missus falling over and cracking rib and an otherwise generally eventful try out on a hire boat in Market Harborough.

 

At the end of the week, we looked to each other in horror! and we both agreed, we enjoyed it immensely (in fact we both fell in love with it) and want to take it further.

 

Wide (class c) or go for narrow is one of the major questions for us at the moment as what you lose in access to some parts of the network, you gain in access to the coastal UK.

 

 

 

I wondered if I might add a couple of questions to the thread for our benefit

 

Cost is a question mark and I wondered if anyone had any views on differing costs for coastal areas v canal (not capital) but general running,mooring,repair)does fresh or seawater make a difference to maintenance.

 

Practical operating? is another: is access to fresh water, good mooring and other stuff.

 

Folks? is another: are canal folk different to estuary or sea going folk (must say everyone we met during our trip were very friendly and helpful, with oodle of advice for wannabe liveaboards. But I am worried as I know one sailing family who are unable to see anything beneath their nose line and we prefer to be with proper, practical and friendly folks.

 

Whichever option this adventure will only be in the British isles as there is so much we haven't seen yet

 

Jim and Pat

Edited February 6, 2011 by jim and pat dalton

[wandering snail]

My understanding is that narrowboats are highly unsuitable on continental waterways because of the volume of commercial traffic and the large wash that they create. Unless you are seasick proof and all loose items are permanently stowed a narrowboat is not for the continent.

 

 

I am afraid your understanding is way off the truth. Our 70'narrowboat has proven to be much more stable than many of the pleasure boats and even commercial boats here in Europe,surprising curious skippers who have joined us. Now in our 4th year touring and having joined thousands of tons of shipping on various commercial canals and been in a force 6 on a wide waterway, we've never had a breakage and I certainly don't stow anything away before we leave every day. See our blog for a good idea of the fun we're having, lots of pics and not too much text! http://www.wanderingsnail.blogspot.com

 

Circe seems to imply later that your mails are slightly "tongue in cheek", but if you really want to cruise France, Germany, Poland, Czech Republic then a 57' n/b is not a plausible craft. If you want to take it to France and keep it on the Midi or in Burgundy then it can work. Having read the "propellor keeps falling of my boat" thread emphasises how inadequate many new-build craft (wide and narrow) are for serious boating on grown-up waters. There are plenty of design elements required for the cruising grounds you mention which surpass the choice of 1 jacuzzi or 2, and to mention just a few among them: large fore deck for working space in commercial locks with working traffic, decent side decks so you can get around the boat safely (major reason why narrow boats and most widebeam ones are dangerous), insulation to cope with temperature range of -20 to 40*C (foam spray keeps you warmer in winter but equally important keeps you cool in summer), large fuel, water, and crap tanks (there are very few far-flung facilities for filling and emptying these respectively), a get-out-of-jail-free card for Eastern Europe (or plenty of money for use as bribes and fines).

 

As I've already said, this is simply not the case. A narrowboat manages absolutely fine. Getting cross now

[David Mack]

I am right in thinking that a 60-61ft nb is ok for everywhere but the Calder & Hebble, the Huddersfield broad and a couple of little bits like Linton to Ripon? It would do the rest of the system ok, wouldn't it? Could we stretch it as far as 62'or is that getting a bit tight?

 

57ft is often quoted as the maximum, but if you're prepared for a bit of inconvenience up to about 59ft (or 60ft at a pinch) will get you through the Calder and Hebble and the Huddersfield Broad: See http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/calder/locks.htm.

 

David

[mrsmelly]

57' is fine the only thing you gain by going larger is the scare factor of sinking the boat in leaky locks.

Sue

 

 

Yeah I have had 57 foot boats, but if you save up a bit longer you can buy a whole one then you dont need a lousy dinette you can have a seperate dining room with a proper table and chairs go for it buy a real one 70 foot ( size does matter )

[Circe]

I am afraid your understanding is way off the truth. Our 70'narrowboat has proven to be much more stable than many of the pleasure boats and even commercial boats here in Europe,surprising curious skippers who have joined us. Now in our 4th year touring and having joined thousands of tons of shipping on various commercial canals and been in a force 6 on a wide waterway, we've never had a breakage and I certainly don't stow anything away before we leave every day. See our blog for a good idea of the fun we're having, lots of pics and not too much text! http://www.wanderingsnail.blogspot.com

 

 

Hello We had actually found your blog and have been reading it with interest. It looks just amazing!

 

We're in the 'pie-in-the-sky' thinking stages at the moment, as the kids are still at home (youngest is 8) but that's good as it gives us the right sort of amount of time to save like mad so we can have a bespoke boat to suit our quirks.

 

The heart is definitely still saying narrowboat, although we think we're set on a max of 62' so we can do everything but the Calder and Hebble and a couple of other little bits over here.

 

How scary is it on the wider waterways in Europe?

Edited February 7, 2011 by Circe

[wandering snail]

There is no such animal as a go-anywhere boat.There will always be waterways that the boat can't manage in UK as well as Europe whatever type it is so stick with the nb if it's right for you. There are ofcourse anxious moments but as our so far unscathed European narrowboating experiences mount up, we get more and more confident (but not complacent)in Snail's abilities.

France has so far been by far the easiest place to visit. It's moorings and smaller, quieter waterways are very narrowboat friendly and I can see why a lot of UK boaters don't leave.

Belgium has some very large commercial ships as you've seen on the blog and locking with them takes a bit of getting used to but you develop strategies and some golden rules born of experience. It's a very friendly country but moorings can be a tad unsuitable for a nb! Again, you get used to it.

Netherlands is very busy with both commercials and private boats. There's plenty of moorings (at a price) but the waterways here are a bit too hectic for us. Nevertheless we are returning next year and then on to Germany and Poland.

Just to finish, the only other nb we've met on the move in Belgium was owned by a single hander who was then in his 9th year here and had just returned from Germany with no problems. His boat had not been adapted in any way for Europe and looked as if he'd just arrived from UK!

[Minos]

Life afloat appeals and we have just returned from a freezing biting cold, occaisionly iced up, stuck on mid channel mud between locks, heaving and swearing at a sticking swing bridge, missus falling over and cracking rib and an otherwise generally eventful try out on a hire boat in Market Harborough.

 

At the end of the week, we looked to each other in horror! and we both agreed, we enjoyed it immensely (in fact we both fell in love with it) and want to take it further.

Well, we were on the Upper Avon in the summer, but Circe was admitted to hospital overnight after a run-in with an insect - but we fell for it, too. It was our third time afloat...

 

I am afraid your understanding is way off the truth. Our 70'narrowboat has proven to be much more stable than many of the pleasure boats and even commercial boats here in Europe,surprising curious skippers who have joined us. Now in our 4th year touring and having joined thousands of tons of shipping on various commercial canals and been in a force 6 on a wide waterway, we've never had a breakage and I certainly don't stow anything away before we leave every day. See our blog for a good idea of the fun we're having, lots of pics and not too much text! http://www.wanderingsnail.blogspot.com...

...A narrowboat manages absolutely fine. Getting cross now

Now I'm very interested! I'll have a good look at your blog.

 

Thanks for the answer - it's really good to hear from someone who is doing this and dealing with the actual challenges. We're very interested in spending time in France when we retire, but I was amazed to see how far across Europe you can reach on a NB. The languages are not a problem for us, but there are so many people who shout, 'No! Don't do it!' and point to enormous commercial boats and NB-sinking locks that I was beginning to wonder...

[bargemast]

Possibly in the very near future for (narrow) boats of more than 65' (20m)it going to become very difficult, because of the new european requirements.

 

Lots of people with bigger size pleasure boats are complaning that there's always something left to adapt their barges to those new and strict rules.

 

Upto 15m everything is easy, and you are even allowed to do the Rhine, upto 20m it's still not too difficult to get the barge upto the required standards, but after that it's more and more hassle, and you have to employ a certified pilot for the Rhine.

 

I don't say that it will be impossible, but it will surely very difficult fighting with some real burocrats, to hopefully obtain what you want in the end.

 

Peter.

[Beth A]

Not because I want it, but because someone else said that I can't have it.

 

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but I've always thought that doing something because somebody says you can't is really quite close to doing something because somebody told you to. I prefer to go my own way and just take advice where it's given.