You're gonna need a bigger boat!

[Chickadee]

When we moved aboard part of the reason was to save some money for a house. Well we've decided we don't want one of those horrible brick house things we'd rather get a bigger boat. So basically i'm looking for any advice anyone can give on getting a bigger boat. We are currently on a 42ft narrowboat and we're looking at dutch barges, tugs etc. I don't think it would need to be a great deal longer just wider to get the space we need, I also like the idea of a wheel house. A guy on a boat near us uses his all the time for dining space etc. (I have wheelhouse envy)

Are boats like this any more difficult to steer? I'm pretty good on our little boat now and confident with her.

We think we might have found a mooring to accomodate us so thats hopefully sorted but what else do we need to think about? Any advice would be great.

[deletedaccount]

The bit I don't get is how to finance it from your existing boat. As in, how could I sell my boat to raise the cash to buy another and still have somewhere to live in the middle.

[Chickadee]

The bit I don't get is how to finance it from your existing boat. As in, how could I sell my boat to raise the cash to buy another and still have somewhere to live in the middle.

 

Storage and understanding parents for me. Luckly my Dad is very happy about the idea of a bigger boat for him to play with

[Heffalump]

Oh wow exciting! I'd have a nice big DB

[Albion]

When we moved aboard part of the reason was to save some money for a house. Well we've decided we don't want one of those horrible brick house things we'd rather get a bigger boat. So basically i'm looking for any advice anyone can give on getting a bigger boat. We are currently on a 42ft narrowboat and we're looking at dutch barges, tugs etc. I don't think it would need to be a great deal longer just wider to get the space we need, I also like the idea of a wheel house. A guy on a boat near us uses his all the time for dining space etc. (I have wheelhouse envy)

Are boats like this any more difficult to steer? I'm pretty good on our little boat now and confident with her.

We think we might have found a mooring to accomodate us so thats hopefully sorted but what else do we need to think about? Any advice would be great.

 

I have gone from a narrowboat to a wheel-steered wide beam boat that handled like a pig due to bad design to a Dutch-barge style boat that handles well. Wheel steering feels less precise than the feel of a tiller steered nb as you have no feedback through the wheel. You will have to have a rudder indicator fitted as, otherwise, with a hydraulic system you have no idea where your rudder is pointing. Not so much a problem travelling along but a PITA when stationary alongside a quay or in locks etc.

Our dining table is in the wheelhouse and it's great to sit up there and watch the world go by. Ours is a single glazed wheelhouse (for weight of the folding sections reasons) so you do get some condensation on the large areas of glass in the colder weather but a wipe over with a chamois leather soon sorts that.

One thing to watch is that, compared to a nb where you are right on the back deck, you are standing/steering further forward and so you have to be aware of the bow AND where the stern is swinging as the stern is out of sight behind you and it is easy to under-estimate the amount of swing of that area.

If you think I can be of any further help then please pm me as I can give you some more direct/indirect experience about a few builders that I would rather not put in the public domain.

Roger

[Bat & Frog]

Couple of things, Firstly, where are you and how wide can you go/ what restrictions on travel will 10 or 12 ft wide give. Also you say you are on 42 foot but don't need to go much longer. I haven't seen many short widebeam boats / barges, this may be because they tend to look out of scale.

 

Never had a narrowboat but spent time on them, love our widebeam (60x10)

[blackrose]

I went from a 45 ft narrow boat to a 57' x 12' widebeam. I actually found the widebeam easier to manoeuvre than the old narrow boat (but that's mainly because the NB gearbox had something wrong with it and wouldn't do anything in reverse).

 

Anyway it's basically the same but bigger - like driving a big van when you're used to a small car. You get used to it in about half an hour.

 

However, the one area where it is a bit different is stopping. You've got a lot more weight and momentum with a big boat. If you're single-handling never try to stop it by stepping off with a centre rope while it's still moving (like I see some people doing on NBs), because it will just drag you down the towpath. Stop the boat with the engine and then step off with the centre rope. Trying to stop the boat by putting all that weight and momentum on a bollard may not work either if your centre eye is just a standard NB type. They have been known to snap off!

 

Of course I'm talking about a NB style widebeam and so I tend to adopt a NB approach to moving it single-handed which seems to work for me. If you end up with a proper Dutch style barge you may want to learn some "proper" boat handling techniques - I think those with Dutch style barges tend to frown on those like me who use a centre rope.

 

The momentum of the boat becomes more significant on a bigger boat - you can always put on more power, but you tend to slow down earlier on a WB than you would on a NB - to lose some of that momentum. The other thing is that you will probably have to move slower anyway on canals with lots of moored boats because you're displacing a lot more water - unless you don't mind incurring the wrath of the slow down shouters!

Edited January 6, 2011 by blackrose

[Neil TNC]

Ours is a single glazed wheelhouse (for weight of the folding sections reasons)

 

Wimp!

 

I have recently sourced the gas lifters

Barnes Group linky

for the front screen, which is the only real problem. It weighs a ton, with its double glazed toughened units (6mm outer and 4mm inner). It was dintinctly a three man job to get it up the steps and on its fixed hinges.

We went for double glazed units, as it did not add that much more to the cost of the wheelhouse. We will obviously be experiencing more dampness / condensation in Ireland, than you part time / fair weather boaters in Burgundy "Little Britain"

We also realized that we will be spending a lot of time in the wheelhouse, one reason for I went for Andrew Hooke / Woodworks to make it.

I dunno what Sagar use for wheelhouse wood protection, but we went for the Ian Clarke / Freebody's RTBC sapele finish:

 

2 coats of clear Cuprinol three days apart

1 coat of Sikkens Cetol HLS Plus Pine/Deal

2 coats Sikkens Cetol Filter 7 Pine/Deal

 

Andrew is just starting the "Final Fling" / Ed Burrell clone, double glazed dogbox....no doubt it will also be over-engineered

[Chickadee]

Thanks for all the input on steering, i guess its just one of those things you have to pick up but getting it right is going to be a little more important than it is on our current boat. Maybe i should see if I can have a go on someone elses boat down here first.

 

Couple of things, Firstly, where are you and how wide can you go/ what restrictions on travel will 10 or 12 ft wide give. Also you say you are on 42 foot but don't need to go much longer. I haven't seen many short widebeam boats / barges, this may be because they tend to look out of scale.

 

Never had a narrowboat but spent time on them, love our widebeam (60x10)

 

We are on the Gloucester-Sharpness so not limited on width. There seems to be some smaller wide beams down here 50ft or under. They do look like squat little things. By not being much bigger I mean some DB's go up to 100ft we don't want to go that far!

[Albion]

Thanks for all the input on steering, i guess its just one of those things you have to pick up but getting it right is going to be a little more important than it is on our current boat. Maybe i should see if I can have a go on someone elses boat down here first.

 

 

 

We are on the Gloucester-Sharpness so not limited on width. There seems to be some smaller wide beams down here 50ft or under. They do look like squat little things. By not being much bigger I mean some DB's go up to 100ft we don't want to go that far!

 

While ours was being built at Sagar there was a small 49 footer being made which I thought was a bit cramped. The galley had to be squeezed in width to get it in and the saloon seemed short IMO. Don't forget that, with a Dutch barge style, you lose some cabin length for the wheelhouse whereas some of the wide-beam narrowboats have full length cabins so you can squeeze more in downstairs but you lose the aspect that you say you like of a dining area upstairs. Ours is a 53ft boat but without stern cabin and is quite spacious. Stern cabins do take up some room and so the living space is compromised. It's the same old compromise when choosing boats, length versus space. Most people's narrowboat choice would be something like 100ft to get all the space they require if that didn't introduce other cruising problems

Roger

[nb Innisfree]

I have gone from a narrowboat to a wheel-steered wide beam boat that handled like a pig due to bad design to a Dutch-barge style boat that handles well. Wheel steering feels less precise than the feel of a tiller steered nb as you have no feedback through the wheel. You will have to have a rudder indicator fitted as, otherwise, with a hydraulic system you have no idea where your rudder is pointing. Not so much a problem travelling along but a PITA when stationary alongside a quay or in locks etc.

Our dining table is in the wheelhouse and it's great to sit up there and watch the world go by. Ours is a single glazed wheelhouse (for weight of the folding sections reasons) so you do get some condensation on the large areas of glass in the colder weather but a wipe over with a chamois leather soon sorts that.

One thing to watch is that, compared to a nb where you are right on the back deck, you are standing/steering further forward and so you have to be aware of the bow AND where the stern is swinging as the stern is out of sight behind you and it is easy to under-estimate the amount of swing of that area.

If you think I can be of any further help then please pm me as I can give you some more direct/indirect experience about a few builders that I would rather not put in the public domain.

Roger

 

I opted for wheel steering on our nb and due to lots of thinking and calculating and a good dose of luck I finished up with what I consider to be the optimum setup. Firstly getting the ratio right is most important, quite often I think WS is too low geared for canal boats which takes the feel out of it, I finished up with 2.5 turns lock to lock which gives enough feedback without being too heavy to turn . Secondly I soon discovered that, unlike a car, a wheel isn't very practical so I fixed a steering knob to the wheel, much better, so much so in fact that I never used the wheel rim so I replaced the wheel with a crank handle, perfect. Having only 2.5 turns and one point of contact with the knob means you always have a good idea where the rudder is and there is no need for a rudder indicator, I did fit one but never used it so I ditched it. One advantage is our cruiser stern deck is free for people to use while I am tucked out of the away in a corner

Edited January 6, 2011 by nb Innisfree

[Albion]

I opted for wheel steering on our nb and due to lots of thinking and calculating and a good dose of luck I finished up with what I consider to be the optimum setup. Firstly getting the ratio right is most important, quite often I think WS is too low geared for canal boats which takes the feel out of it, I finished up with 2.5 turns lock to lock which gives enough feedback without being too heavy to turn . Secondly I soon discovered that, unlike a car, a wheel isn't very practical so I fixed a steering knob to the wheel, much better, so much so in fact that I never used the wheel rim so I replaced the wheel with a crank handle, perfect. Having only 2.5 turns and one point of contact with the knob means you always have a good idea where the rudder is and there is no need for a rudder indicator, I did fit one but never used it so I ditched it. One advantage is our cruiser stern deck is free for people to use while I am tucked out of the away in a corner

 

The knob on the rim is a good idea but, unfortunately, I'm told they're illegal in France. I think it might be a hangover from mechanical (chain) systems where, if the rudder catches on something suddenly, it can whip the wheel round very fast and injure the steerer as the knob clouts their wrist, for example. With a hydraulic system this doesn't happen but the regs remain the same I'm told. Having said all that, it is typical that I've seen quite a few barges in France with a knob on the wheel rim, hey ho

Roger

[Tam & Di]

Thanks for all the input on steering, i guess its just one of those things you have to pick up but getting it right is going to be a little more important than it is on our current boat. Maybe i should see if I can have a go on someone elses boat down here first.

 

We are on the Gloucester-Sharpness so not limited on width. There seems to be some smaller wide beams down here 50ft or under. They do look like squat little things. By not being much bigger I mean some DB's go up to 100ft we don't want to go that far!

 

And the rest - a 30m one is actually quite small, though admittedly the ones you would see in the UK will be the smaller style of craft such as an aak or tjalk, with just the occasional luxemotor up to 38m (126').

 

A short fat boat is much more difficult to handle than one with about 5:1 length:beam ratio, whatever the size ranges. A working narrowboat is 10:1 of course. The ultimate short-fat scenario would be a coracle! Great for turning in circles but a pig to move in a controlled manner in any one direction.

[Albion]

And the rest - a 30m one is actually quite small, though admittedly the ones you would see in the UK will be the smaller style of craft such as an aak or tjalk, with just the occasional luxemotor up to 38m (126').

 

A short fat boat is much more difficult to handle than one with about 5:1 length:beam ratio, whatever the size ranges. A working narrowboat is 10:1 of course. The ultimate short-fat scenario would be a coracle! Great for turning in circles but a pig to move in a controlled manner in any one direction.

 

I absolutely agree with this. It is just one of the reasons (but not the only one) that my previously mentioned interim wide-beam handled like a pig. It had a mind of its own and would sheer off course in an instant.

Roger

[Tam & Di]

The knob on the rim is a good idea but, unfortunately, I'm told they're illegal in France. I think it might be a hangover from mechanical (chain) systems where, if the rudder catches on something suddenly, it can whip the wheel round very fast and injure the steerer as the knob clouts their wrist, for example. With a hydraulic system this doesn't happen but the regs remain the same I'm told. Having said all that, it is typical that I've seen quite a few barges in France with a knob on the wheel rim, hey ho

Roger

 

I've not ever looked up the actual spec, but my understanding was that this applied to wheels with spokes protruding beyond the rim - i.e. the conventional popular image of a ship's wheel - where if they do spin the likelihood of a broken wrist is fairly high. Maybe it does apply to a knob as well, but I don't know. The spec certainly applies to commercial vessels, but I don't think it applies to pleasurecraft. I'll see if I can find anything on it in the new Technical Requirements for Inland Waterway Vessels that are now looming over us owners with craft over 20m.

[Albion]

I've not ever looked up the actual spec, but my understanding was that this applied to wheels with spokes protruding beyond the rim - i.e. the conventional popular image of a ship's wheel - where if they do spin the likelihood of a broken wrist is fairly high. Maybe it does apply to a knob as well, but I don't know. The spec certainly applies to commercial vessels, but I don't think it applies to pleasurecraft. I'll see if I can find anything on it in the new Technical Requirements for Inland Waterway Vessels that are now looming over us owners with craft over 20m.

 

Yes, I was told that it applied to the spoked rim type as well as the knob mounted on the rim. I've seen folding handles used which seem a good compromise. The guy who told me was a well known boatyard owner and boat surveyor with a full barge handling licence who has recently sold his yard in the vicinity of Migennes port

Roger

[blackrose]

A short fat boat is much more difficult to handle than one with about 5:1 length:beam ratio, whatever the size ranges. A working narrowboat is 10:1 of course. The ultimate short-fat scenario would be a coracle! Great for turning in circles but a pig to move in a controlled manner in any one direction.

 

So does it follow that any boat with a length:beam ratio greater than 5:1 is more difficult to turn? My widebeam has a 4.75:1 length beam ratio and I've found it turns much easier than narrowboats of the same length.

Edited January 6, 2011 by blackrose

[Tam & Di]

So does it follow that any boat with a length:beam ratio greater than 5:1 is more difficult to turn? My widebeam has a 4.75:1 length beam ratio and I've found it turns much easier than narrowboats of the same length.

 

There's no absolute direct relationship, and hull shape, draught, trim, engine power, gearbox reduction, rudder size, prop size and speed, water depths, Uncle Tom Cobley and all, all play a part. It is just that as a generality a short fat boat will be more difficult to handle overall than one that is about 10:1 (e.g. a destroyer!). The turning circle is only one aspect of the handling characteristics.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Tam & Di

[Albion]

Wimp!

 

I have recently sourced the gas lifters

Barnes Group linky

for the front screen, which is the only real problem. It weighs a ton, with its double glazed toughened units (6mm outer and 4mm inner). It was dintinctly a three man job to get it up the steps and on its fixed hinges.

snipped

I dunno what Sagar use for wheelhouse wood protection, but we went for the Ian Clarke / Freebody's RTBC sapele finish:

 

2 coats of clear Cuprinol three days apart

1 coat of Sikkens Cetol HLS Plus Pine/Deal

2 coats Sikkens Cetol Filter 7 Pine/Deal

 

 

I rest my case

 

Not sure about the whole process but the regular touch up stain is the same Ceetol Pine stuff. Pine, although not the finish of the darker timber, is just the right colour for re-doing the protection.

Roger

[mattlad]

Sorry can't resist............

 

Get a smaller shark!!!! :lol:

[Chickadee]

Sorry can't resist............

 

Get a smaller shark!!!! :lol:

 

[Neil TNC]

I rest my case

 

Not sure about the whole process but the regular touch up stain is the same Ceetol Pine stuff. Pine, although not the finish of the darker timber, is just the right colour for re-doing the protection.

Roger

 

 

Yeah...but...yeah...but.... how many times will the front screen come off the fixed hinges?

With the front screen lifters it was bad enough working out the angle/arc of the screen, and where to mount the lower bracket...as for pressure, I opted for some meaty variable rate ones.

Ian experimented with the mahogany Sikkens Ceetol...but his test piece of mahogany (probably is with Ian's boat / Freebody's) wood ened up a horrid reddy-mauve colour.

[Albion]

Yeah...but...yeah...but.... how many times will the front screen come off the fixed hinges?

With the front screen lifters it was bad enough working out the angle/arc of the screen, and where to mount the lower bracket...as for pressure, I opted for some meaty variable rate ones.

Ian experimented with the mahogany Sikkens Ceetol...but his test piece of mahogany (probably is with Ian's boat / Freebody's) wood ened up a horrid reddy-mauve colour.

 

But that's just one example of one of the screens/windows that you have to move, there are a few more you know and those roof sections look very heavy. You won't have to move much in Ireland though, that's for sure.

Roger

Edited January 9, 2011 by Albion

[bargemast]

The knob on the rim is a good idea but, unfortunately, I'm told they're illegal in France. I think it might be a hangover from mechanical (chain) systems where, if the rudder catches on something suddenly, it can whip the wheel round very fast and injure the steerer as the knob clouts their wrist, for example. With a hydraulic system this doesn't happen but the regs remain the same I'm told. Having said all that, it is typical that I've seen quite a few barges in France with a knob on the wheel rim, hey ho

Roger

 

 

It's true that if the rudder catches on something, the wheel may spin very, very fast if it's a mechanical system.

 

On 2 of my barges (38m) I had mechanical steering, on 1 I had 28 turns lock to lock (180°) and on the other 30 turns, so you can imagine what will happen to the wheel when the rudder catches on something, and you better don't have a knob or a spike if you're standing close to a suddenly fast spinning wheel, as it could easily break your wrist or do even more serious damage to you.

 

Peter.

[Chickadee]

OK. Wide beam, Dutch barge style or something else?

 

Both my bf and Dad (who will probably end up doing alot of the work) are quite keen on the idea of getting a wide beam sail away. I can see why from my Dads point of view. Its going to be a heck of alot easier to fit out a big rectangle than something with various rooms.

I however as i've already said would like a wheel house mostly for having a light room (i do alot of crafts so having natural light is useful) also I imagine a bit higher view is nice.

I'm also interested in something different. Theres a tug near by that I really want to go and have a look at.

 

Obviously alot will depend on the mooring we end up getting but for now this is just me playing with ideas. What would you go for?