Define 'live aboard'

[canaldrifter]

Anyone ever seen a written definition of what a 'live aboard' is, in terms of BW ruling, or legal definition?

 

How many days per year do we need to be living aboard to qualify?

 

If we have an address ashore, are we truly living aboard?

 

Does it depend upon us declaring that we live aboard?

 

This would be important when it comes to defining a residential mooring where council tax is imposed, for example, and councils are now becoming aware of the many boaters who 'live' unofficially in marinas or on off-side moorings..

 

Sally Ash, for BW, has declared more than once that BW are not in the housing business.

 

I have never got to the bottom of this, but this forum might be a good place to continue digging.

 

(Or maybe not.)

 

Tone

[RLWP]

My guess (dangerous!) is that there is no definition of a live aboard.

 

Richard

[magpie patrick]

In planning terms it tends to mean that the place the boat is moored is your "principal residence", this isn't a fixed definition but is a judgement made on the basis of whether you have another place to live and if so how you use it related to how you use the boat, if for example you go back to the house for various things, store most of your possessions there and have the post sent there then even if you spend 80% of your time on the boat it probably isn't classed as residential.

 

The other thing to note is that it is the use of the boat at the mooring that makes the mooring residential, so if you cruise on the boat for six months and then take it back to it's home mooring, stay on it for a month and go to your villa in Spain for the remaining five month of winter then the mooring is not residential, even though the boat is your home while you are in the UK

 

I also think any local authority that charges council tax when the mooring does not have residential permission is batting on a sticky wicket, and will not have a leg to stand on if they attempt to enforce the lack of planning consent for residential

[blodger]

As far as I am concerned I am living aboard when on the boat for a month. Hire boaters are liveaboards for their one or two week vacation.

 

It seems folk want to come up with a definition of liveaboard such that BW can recognise it and penalise some how those so described. I suppose just as ccers are challenged.

 

At the end of the day boats are being used with varying degrees of intensity; So what.

[RLWP]

In planning terms it tends to mean that the place the boat is moored is your "principal residence", this isn't a fixed definition but is a judgement made on the basis of whether you have another place to live and if so how you use it related to how you use the boat, if for example you go back to the house for various things, store most of your possessions there and have the post sent there then even if you spend 80% of your time on the boat it probably isn't classed as residential.

 

The other thing to note is that it is the use of the boat at the mooring that makes the mooring residential, so if you cruise on the boat for six months and then take it back to it's home mooring, stay on it for a month and go to your villa in Spain for the remaining five month of winter then the mooring is not residential, even though the boat is your home while you are in the UK

 

I also think any local authority that charges council tax when the mooring does not have residential permission is batting on a sticky wicket, and will not have a leg to stand on if they attempt to enforce the lack of planning consent for residential

 

Point of order. These are definitions for "residential" not "liveaboard"

 

 

Richard

[mayalld]

Point of order. These are definitions for "residential" not "liveaboard"

 

 

Richard

 

Point of order.

 

Liveaboard is a colloqial term that is (probably) equivalent of residential, and as such shares a definition.

 

No legislation hinges upon the term.

[cotswoldsman]

Maybe this will help!!!

 

Provided that they have a house that they can return to immediately (not let out), then their use of the boat would inded be leisure.

 

As soon as they lack the ability to immediately return to a land based home, and the boat becomes their only home, their use of the boat ceases to be leisure.

 

 

According to dave.....so if you live for example on the boat for 6 months and then rent for 6 months you are a nothing. If you have an empty house you can return to then you are a recognised leisure cruiser. If you cruise the system for 9 months and leave your boat for 3 months then you are something not sure what. If you cruise for 12 months then you are a liveaboard but not a leisure cruiser.

I think I will check confused.com and see if they can help me.

[Guest wanted]

I think (again dangerous) that primary residence would mean staying 4 nights out of 7. This is how the councils apply the ruling for housing benefit so I would have thought it be logical for council tax purposes. Then again, rarely has logic and the council been in the same room!

[magpie patrick]

Point of order. These are definitions for "residential" not "liveaboard"

 

 

Richard

 

Pedant!

 

This may be true but as you said, "live aboard" is not defined and I would suggest not really defineable, nor is there any need to define "live aboard" unless the boat is moored while being lived on, at which point the relevant definition is "residential". BW do not issue "residential" or "live aboard" licences, and as they repeatedly say, they are not a housing authority, which i take to mean they provide a canal for boats and if you want to live on your boat that is absolutely nothing to do with them

 

I wonder how insurance companies define it, as Ripple is specifically not insured for residential use

 

Maybe this will help!!!

 

 

 

 

According to dave.....so if you live for example on the boat for 6 months and then rent for 6 months you are a nothing. If you have an empty house you can return to then you are a recognised leisure cruiser. If you cruise the system for 9 months and leave your boat for 3 months then you are something not sure what. If you cruise for 12 months then you are a liveaboard but not a leisure cruiser.

I think I will check confused.com and see if they can help me.

 

I, like you, can not see why living aboard and leisure use are mutually incompatible. When we met you, you struck me as a man on a five year long holiday...

[muddywaters]

My personal idea of a live a board is ay boat someone lives abourd it all the time.

As for what BW idea of a live a bpard is I don't have a clue

[DeanS]

As far as I am concerned I am living aboard when on the boat for a month. Hire boaters are liveaboards for their one or two week vacation.

 

It seems folk want to come up with a definition of liveaboard such that BW can recognise it and penalise some how those so described. I suppose just as ccers are challenged.

 

At the end of the day boats are being used with varying degrees of intensity; So what.

 

 

EXACTLY. Regulation should only exist for the BOAT, and never for what goes on in the boat, and when. If the boat is on the water, it is one thing. When it is out the water , it is something else. This should really be all BW worry about. God doesnt tell a shark it cant swim in the ocean because it is not a sardine. Is a penguin a bird or a fish. When it is in the water, it's a fish. When it's on land..it's a bird. I think I may have just gone bio-ethnic.

[RLWP]

EXACTLY. Regulation should only exist for the BOAT,

<snip>

 

Regulation does only exist for the boat.

 

Richard

[mrsmelly]

Anyone ever seen a written definition of what a 'live aboard' is, in terms of BW ruling, or legal definition?

 

How many days per year do we need to be living aboard to qualify?

 

If we have an address ashore, are we truly living aboard?

 

Does it depend upon us declaring that we live aboard?

 

This would be important when it comes to defining a residential mooring where council tax is imposed, for example, and councils are now becoming aware of the many boaters who 'live' unofficially in marinas or on off-side moorings..

 

Sally Ash, for BW, has declared more than once that BW are not in the housing business.

 

I have never got to the bottom of this, but this forum might be a good place to continue digging.

 

(Or maybe not.)

 

Tone

 

There is probably no legal definition of the term " Live aboard " but er I would think Live aboard would mean you err lived on your boat as is what I do.......

[DeanS]

Regulation does only exist for the boat.

 

Richard

 

so why are we having this discussion again ?

[johnmck]

So. Correct me if i am wrong. We will have a permanent residence but will live aboard for approx half the year. We will pay council tax, so were do we stand in regard to licensing the boat without a "permanent" mooring?Are we CC'ers? Sorry to appear so dense(cos i am!)

 

John.

[Albion]

Anyone ever seen a written definition of what a 'live aboard' is, in terms of BW ruling, or legal definition?

 

How many days per year do we need to be living aboard to qualify?

 

If we have an address ashore, are we truly living aboard?

 

Does it depend upon us declaring that we live aboard?

 

This would be important when it comes to defining a residential mooring where council tax is imposed, for example, and councils are now becoming aware of the many boaters who 'live' unofficially in marinas or on off-side moorings..

 

Sally Ash, for BW, has declared more than once that BW are not in the housing business.

 

I have never got to the bottom of this, but this forum might be a good place to continue digging.

 

(Or maybe not.)

 

Tone

 

From a common-sense point of view (as opposed to a legal definition) I would have thought that a live-aboard is someone who lives aboard all year round and has no land based address to which they could return at the drop of a hat, ie an overnight decision.

 

This would therefore include people who rent out their house, but would have to evict tenants before they could take up residence, those who only have an accommodation address (a relative's house for example) for mail purposes etc.

 

If you have a house which is left empty while you cruise but, to which you could return instantly with no complication and isn't loaned to relatives, you could be said to be on a continuous holiday cruise.

 

Well, that would be my interpretation but others may think differently, of course.

Roger

Edited January 4, 2011 by Albion

[canaldrifter]

As far as I am concerned I am living aboard when on the boat for a month. Hire boaters are liveaboards for their one or two week vacation.

 

It seems folk want to come up with a definition of liveaboard such that BW can recognise it and penalise some how those so described. I suppose just as ccers are challenged.

 

At the end of the day boats are being used with varying degrees of intensity; So what.

 

I'm sorta with you on this blodger.

 

As I have found it, the term 'live aboard' has no legal meaning. The term 'residential' does, especially when applied to 'houseboats' and moorings.

 

However the term 'live aboard' is banded about, both by BW and the EA, and us, as if it does have meaning, and indeed clout.

 

If someone asks me whether I live on my boat, I will reply, yes. I have done for the past eleven years, but I am currently 'staying' in my mate's lock cottage, who's address I am currently using. So as such I am a 'live aboard' as we understand it, but I am not a residential boater as I don't have a permanent (or even temporary) residential mooring.

 

I don't think the situation is clarified in any way by the 'Residential Boat Owners' Association' giving themselves that title. As far as I can tell, most of their members are CCers, i.e. they live aboard with no residential mooring, for much of the year.

 

I have moored in a marina where I was told I could not 'live aboard'. When I pointed out that I had an address up the road (a pub as it happens) they then said, Oh, that's OK then.

 

Maybe the situation becomes complex when boaters use a marina as a postal address?

 

Tone

Edited January 4, 2011 by canaldrifter

[robdalej]

Maybe I am totally wrong on this but i understood that as although you own the boat you do not own the land{or water] on which the the boat is kept., therefore ,if you died you could not leave it to someone, therefore it could not be classed as a permanent structure. Although on our mooring one of the live aboards had to apply for benefits due to having to give up work, the council would not give him any benefits until s their council tax was paid up in full. they had to pay over 8 years tax, some £8000.Sadly he died 3 months later so lot of money for nothing . So maybe different councils have different rules

[canaldrifter]

Maybe I am totally wrong on this but i understood that as although you own the boat you do not own the land{or water] on which the the boat is kept., therefore ,if you died you could not leave it to someone, therefore it could not be classed as a permanent structure. Although on our mooring one of the live aboards had to apply for benefits due to having to give up work, the council would not give him any benefits until s their council tax was paid up in full. they had to pay over 8 years tax, some £8000.Sadly he died 3 months later so lot of money for nothing . So maybe different councils have different rules

 

That is a sad tale. Also, that council was wrong. There is a legal precedent to prove it.

 

A mobile boat is not legally recognised as a 'dwelling' for the purposes of council tax, but it is for benefit purposes.

 

www.administrativeappeals.tribunals.gov.uk/.../R(H)%209-08%20bv.doc

 

Tone

[magpie patrick]

So. Correct me if i am wrong. We will have a permanent residence but will live aboard for approx half the year. We will pay council tax, so were do we stand in regard to licensing the boat without a "permanent" mooring?Are we CC'ers? Sorry to appear so dense(cos i am!)

 

John.

 

The only requirement of CC is that you abide by the rules, it does not state you have to live aboard. Depending on which side of this very contentious camp you sit you either must move to another place every fourteen days or "make a continuous and progressive journey through the system" (or words to that effect.

 

Plenty of people make a continuous and progressive journey by weekending. In 2007, Ripple spent from May Day Bank Holiday to August Bank holiday away from her own mooring, the only time she stayed anywhere more than 14 days was when I borrowed Odana's mooring, for 16 days, in all other instances Ripple only spent sunday evening to friday evening in one place, while I went back to work

 

The only reasons living aboard ever NEEDS to be defined are for planning permission and insurance, and for planning permission it is the mooring which is the residence, not the boat (and no, pedants, this does not mean you have to camp on the pontoon!)

[Neil TNC]

From a common-sense point of view (as opposed to a legal definition) I would have thought that a live-aboard is someone who lives aboard all year round and has no land based address to which they could return at the drop of a hat, ie an overnight decision.

 

This would therefore include people who rent out their house, but would have to evict tenants before they could take up residence, those who only have an accommodation address (a relative's house for example) for mail purposes etc.

 

If you have a house which is left empty while you cruise but, to which you could return instantly with no complication and isn't loaned to relatives, could be said to be on a continuous holiday cruise.

 

Well, that would be my interpretation but others may think differently, of course.

Roger

 

 

...so are you a live-aboard, or a continuous holiday cruiser?

[floatingphil]

I asked this question about my leisure mooring this week. Im told 2 or 3 night a week on board is not considered leisure, so i would need residential mooring which Im unlikely to find on our stretch of water

 

Phil

[magpie patrick]

I asked this question about my leisure mooring this week. Im told 2 or 3 night a week on board is not considered leisure, so i would need residential mooring which Im unlikely to find on our stretch of water

 

Phil

 

who did you ask, and do they own the mooring?

[floatingphil]

who did you ask, and do they own the mooring?

 

Yes i asked the owners of the mooring, seems a bit unreasonable when I know there are liverboards on liesure moorings

 

Phil

[DeanS]

Yes i asked the owners of the mooring, seems a bit unreasonable when I know there are liverboards on liesure moorings

 

Phil

 

What exactly is a leisure mooring?. I know I'm meant to know by now..but I dont know all the terms.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Lady Muck