Legal implications of boating in ice

[Pretty Funked Up]

Its the most exspensive way to move your boat i can imagine. Its probably cheaper to get craned out onto a lorry and drive to the water point.This cost is also forced on to moored boats too.

 

sarcasm

irony

Edited November 20, 2010 by Pretty Funked Up

[blackrose]

I've moved in ice before, but I prefer not to. Deliberately removing one's blacking at the waterline isn't such a great idea and pushing ice into other people's boats is never going to endear you to the boating fraternity on that particular stretch of waterway.

 

In the south at least, it generally only ices up for a week at a time, so ideally those who are cruising should really be thinking ahead and looking at the weather forecast in order to fill up with water and empty their toilets before it freezes up.

 

Obviously if the ice lasts then some will have no choice but to try to move, but in cold snaps considerate boaters should try to stay put for a few days.

Edited November 20, 2010 by blackrose

[Pretty Funked Up]

it generally only ices up for a week at a time, so ideally those who are cruising should really be thinking ahead and looking at the weather forecast in order to fill up with water and empty their toilets before it freezes up.

 

true words my friend

[Guest]

true words my friend

 

and hirers??

[Pretty Funked Up]

and hirers??

 

ask for a refund

[Guest]

ask for a refund

 

Great - so you're stuck x miles from the home boat yard if you don't move because it's a bit icy....

 

a refund is not going to cover getting the crew and all their belongings from some remote point back to their home yard...

 

personally I'd just press on as I did....

[Pretty Funked Up]

personally I'd just press on as I did....

 

I would probably do the same in that position, must be a lottery win odds on that though.

 

I'm not against it, I find it great to see and hear (except when being woken as the frozen ice is bang on ear level when a sleep lying in bed... thats sucks @rse )

 

like I said earlier, I dont complain as its expected unless you have a marina mooring.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Pretty Funked Up

[Radiomariner]

Great - so you're stuck x miles from the home boat yard if you don't move because it's a bit icy....

 

a refund is not going to cover getting the crew and all their belongings from some remote point back to their home yard...

 

personally I'd just press on as I did....

 

I should think the hire company would rather arrange and pay for crew and belongings to be removed as well as some compensation for loss of holiday, rather than having their boat damaged and possibly insurance claims for damage to other boats.

[Pretty Funked Up]

... and possibly insurance claims for damage to other boats.

 

But are there grounds for a claim?

 

If there are then I can get free blacking sorted for ever

Edited November 21, 2010 by Pretty Funked Up

[stagedamager]

I agree with Carl, ice boards or planks are the way to go in this situation, it's all about dynamic risk assesment, and, like most things in life being proactive about the situation rather than being reactive, especially where wooden or fibreglass boats are concerned. There is also the possibility that movement of the boat due to occupation can scratch the blacking off which could be mis-construed as a moving boats' fault, and then the unfortunate moving boat is in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Regards

Dan

[cotswoldsman]

I should think the hire company would rather arrange and pay for crew and belongings to be removed as well as some compensation for loss of holiday, rather than having their boat damaged and possibly insurance claims for damage to other boats.

 

on what basis would these insurance made??? Excuse me Mr Insurance company i left my boat moored on a canal in winter and a boat came past and caused my boat to get scratched, I think it is really inconsiderate for boats to move on a canal..........

what do you call damage where ice is involved??

[David Schweizer]

can coalboats move, or should they too 'sit it out'?

My suggesting was based upon the fact that it is very hard work progressing through thick ice, so staying put if you do not have to move is a preferable option. It was not aimed at Boats which rely upon moving for their trade and/or are providing a valued service to other boaters. In such cicumstances the Coal boat struggling through would be a welcopme sight for people living on therir boats.

 

The last time I recall severe icing over a prolonged period on the K&A was back in the mid/late 1990's when the coal/diesel boat was iced in at Bradford on Avon for a couple of weeks. Fortunately it was close to the Frome road, and with a bit of ingenuity and co-operation between boaters and local K&A Trust members, most other boats that were iced in were still kept supplied with fuel by road and towpath deliveries. It is amazing how far you can transport bags of coal and cans of diesel along a snowbound towpath in a wheelbarrow, if needs must.

 

Of course the situation would be completely different if both the Coal boat and other boats were stranded out in an isolated area with no road access within miles.

Edited November 21, 2010 by David Schweizer

[NB Alton]

We ice-break when necessary as we can have in excess of 100 customers waiting for coal, diesel & p/o etc. Most boater are glad that we are breaking the ice and they can then get out to get water, empty elsan etc. We can break ice up to 1" with no problem, at 2" we start having to "shuffle" round bends, at 3" this is very slow going and we are constantly having to back up & ram the ice, at 4" we stop having hopefully managed to break our way to somewhere with road access where we start then delivering by road which is very arduous, takes twice as long, sometimes barrowing coal 1/2 mile down a snowladen towpath.

[blackrose]

Great - so you're stuck x miles from the home boat yard if you don't move because it's a bit icy....

 

a refund is not going to cover getting the crew and all their belongings from some remote point back to their home yard...

 

personally I'd just press on as I did....

 

As I said, there are circumstances in which some will have little choice but to move in ice and I don't really understand why some insist on looking at this from such a polarised perspective? (i.e. "nobody should move" or "I'm going to move regardless").

 

Most sensible owners of boats won't want to move in ice because of the damage done to their blacking so they will think ahead and try to get water and empty toilets before the ice arrives. If it's not your own boat then that's not such an issue, but you will still have to contend with owners who won't appreciate sheets of ice being propelled towards their boats. It could be argued that if they are concerned they should be using planks to protect their hulls from the ice, but realistically, how many of us who are out cruising in winter carry such "ice planks" on our boats?

 

As for fuel boats, I think most of us who are iced in are happy to see them arrive even if that means our blacking gets scratched!

Edited November 21, 2010 by blackrose

[Guest]

We ice-break when necessary as we can have in excess of 100 customers waiting for coal, diesel & p/o etc. Most boater are glad that we are breaking the ice and they can then get out to get water, empty elsan etc. We can break ice up to 1" with no problem, at 2" we start having to "shuffle" round bends, at 3" this is very slow going and we are constantly having to back up & ram the ice, at 4" we stop having hopefully managed to break our way to somewhere with road access where we start then delivering by road which is very arduous, takes twice as long, sometimes barrowing coal 1/2 mile down a snowladen towpath.

 

 

and if I was iced in an running low on coal/gas and the likes I'd appreciate your effort - good on you sir!!

[cotswoldsman]

As I said, there are circumstances in which some will have little choice but to move in ice and I don't really understand why some insist on looking at this from such a polarised perspective? (i.e. "nobody should move" or "I'm going to move regardless").

 

Most sensible owners of boats won't want to move in ice because of the damage done to their blacking so they will think ahead and try to get water and empty toilets before the ice arrives. If it's not your own boat then that's not such an issue, but you will still have to contend with owners who won't appreciate sheets of ice being propelled towards their boats. It could be argued that if they are concerned they should be using planks to protect their hulls from the ice, but realistically, how many of us who are out cruising in winter carry such "ice planks" on our boats?

 

Bit contrary post!! You say sensible boat owners will plan ahead and give some examples and finish by saying

 

but realistically, how many of us who are out cruising in winter carry such "ice planks" on our boats?

 

That is surely bad planning and not something done by a sensible boater!! I don't understand the thinking that says I won't look after my boat by buying planks but expect anyone else that wants to use the canal to ensure they do not cruise past my boat with no planks incase it gets scratched!!! I am responsible for my boat not other peoples boats when cruising in ice.....

 

and if I was iced in an running low on coal/gas and the likes I'd appreciate your effort - good on you sir!!

 

But ensure that you do not cause ice to slide onto my moored boat with no protection as I can't be bothered to protect it but expect other boaters to stop all cruising to ensure my boat is ok!!!

[Grace and Favour]

If you know that boats are entitled to progress, in icy conditions, surely you should show common sense and take the most basic of precautions, to protect your hull?

 

Absolutely - I would always take the optimal precautions - for I believe it necessary and beholden upon me to do so.

 

However, I would still also show all my fellow boaters the courtesy of respecting their property, and not do anything to damage it.

 

Is it unreasonable, or merely unrealistic, to expect the same level of courtesy from those same fellow boaters?

[Bob M]

I was wondering when I started this topic if their was any recorded cases of a boat causing damage to another boat by pushing ice onto it?

A few things I must correct others on- each time I have been stuck in ice in the last three years have been between three and four weeks,

once in Oxford, once at Watford Locks and last winter on the Lee. If it was only a week as posted that would not have been a problem,obviously

someone lives a lot further south than Hertfordshire!

Secondly I personally would not know if I had caused damage to another boat when passing, if I had holed a boat at the waterline it could be

hours/days or even weeks later before it sank!

 

Last winter I had no reasonable choice as there was a stoppage lasting for a couple of months and had to be other side of it to continue planned cruise.

One thing I also must add is that if you are concerned about ice hitting your boat is that if you run your engine in gear this clears even the thickest ice, simply by the motion of water. PS BW don't like you doing this though as you may erode the bank!

Edited November 21, 2010 by Bob M

[furnessvale]

We ice-break when necessary as we can have in excess of 100 customers waiting for coal, diesel & p/o etc. Most boater are glad that we are breaking the ice and they can then get out to get water, empty elsan etc. We can break ice up to 1" with no problem, at 2" we start having to "shuffle" round bends, at 3" this is very slow going and we are constantly having to back up & ram the ice, at 4" we stop having hopefully managed to break our way to somewhere with road access where we start then delivering by road which is very arduous, takes twice as long, sometimes barrowing coal 1/2 mile down a snowladen towpath.

 

I too used to move with Alton when it was physically possible to do so and customers thanked you for it. Non customers were less appreciative but I can count the number of boats I have seen using ice boards with the fingers of one hand, excluding the thumb.

 

Last winter I was out with the restaurant boat in moderate ice when I got plenty of verbal from a steel boat owner for moving. The fact that 5 persons livelyhoods depended on that work, or that a single missed trip costs £1000, were of no concern to this shiny blacked non-iced boarded individual.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

ps this winter SANDBACH (my icebreaker) will be out assisting Alton to get through if needed.

Edited November 21, 2010 by furnessvale

[cotswoldsman]

I too used to move with Alton when it was physically possible to do so and customers thanked you for it. Non customers were less appreciative but I can count the number of boats I have seen using ice boards with the fingers of one hand, excluding the thumb.

 

Last winter I was out with the restaurant boat in moderate ice when I got plenty of verbal from a steel boat owner for moving. The fact that 5 persons livelyhoods depended on that work, or that a single missed trip costs £1000, were of no concern to this shiny blacked non-iced boarded individual.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

ps this winter SANDBACH (my icebreaker) will be out assisting Alton to get through if needed.

 

As you say people expect everyone else to take the precautions these are 2 photos on L&L last December not a board in sight

 

 

 

 

ps this winter SANDBACH (my icebreaker) will be out assisting Alton to get through if needed.

 

Like this one!!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSy2PM8_5CQ

 

[nb Innisfree]

Finding no trace of damage to my blacking after some hefty impacts from large ice floes from passing boats I think planks for a steel boat are completely unnecessary, but not protecting a wooden or glass one is foolhardy, only yourself to blame.

 

The best way to break very thick ice is for bows to rise on top and break downwards, unfortunately canal boats aren't designed for this.

Edited November 21, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[furnessvale]

Finding no trace of damage to my blacking after some hefty impacts from large ice floes from passing boats I think planks for a steel boat are completely unnecessary, but not protecting a wooden or glass one is foolhardy, only yourself to blame.

 

The best way to break very thick ice is for bows to rise on top and break downwards, unfortunately canal boats aren't designed for this.

 

SANDBACH has the required bow shape to do exactly that and weighs in at 16 tons on a 35ft length.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Pretty Funked Up]

Its just needs boats to keep moving (all night especially)

If you keep the water moving its unlikely to freeze up

[David Schweizer]

snip> I was wondering when I started this topic if their was any recorded cases of a boat causing damage to another boat by pushing ice onto it? <snip

 

Back in the 1960's, just above Uxbridge Lock on the Grand Union, I witnessesd a small fibre glass cruiser being sliced in two by a single loaded working boat cutting through thick ice. The cruiser took about twenty seconds to sink. I can still remember the name of the working boat and the owner, but as they are still both around, their identity stays with me.

 

Many crusers in those days were single skinned, and the normal practice was to haul them onto the bank over winter. The owner of this particular cruiser failed to do that, and suffered the consequences of his own negligence.

Edited November 21, 2010 by David Schweizer

[sueb]

I should think the hire company would rather arrange and pay for crew and belongings to be removed as well as some compensation for loss of holiday, rather than having their boat damaged and possibly insurance claims for damage to other boats.

It was a hire boat being taken back to the yard by an employee that broke us out of the ice this year. The steerer had been told to get the boat back to the yard at all costs. He did some really serious ice breaking and took long enough getting past us for me to replenish his tea bags.

Sue