Best batteries?

[Keeping Up]

It is rare these days. Like the Yuasa 90Ahr I bought brand new that has never produced more than 80ahrs and was down to 60ahrs within about 10 deep discharges.

Ditto the 4 Yuasa's I got from Halfrauds which each went from 110Ah to under 50Ah after about 30 cycles of mild discharge (to about 80%) with a proper recharge between each. Luckily the man at the shop was so bemused by the graphs I took in with me that I got all my money back.

[John R]

That's interesting. I've not even seen that datasheet before. The one I have states 110ahrs@20hr, 100ahr@10hrs and 80Ahrs@5hr. I'll upload a copy of it tomorrow.

 

And the thermal runaway I saw was way below that voltage. It was in bulk and still at around 13 volts.

 

But so far these are still the absolute dog's bollocks!

 

 

 

It is rare these days. Like the Yuasa 90Ahr I bought brand new that has never produced more than 80ahrs and was down to 60ahrs within about 10 deep discharges.

 

 

Like Darren, i was there at the begining of this battery, and it proably is the best battery in the world.I am retired some time now so a bit out of date. Suggest you look at Enersys UK website and check out Odyssey product which is similar intrenally to 12fv120 but without some of the bells and whistles such as shock resistance that are of very limited if any value on a boat. Odessey also has more capacity / size options.

 

I run Hawker 12volt tubular plate monoblocs "12TP110" which give excellent DOD and cycle life, see also XFC product, another good cycle life high capacity product due to its construction . See Hawker website

[Gibbo]

Like Darren, i was there at the begining of this battery, and it proably is the best battery in the world.I am retired some time now so a bit out of date. Suggest you look at Enersys UK website and check out Odyssey product which is similar intrenally to 12fv120 but without some of the bells and whistles such as shock resistance that are of very limited if any value on a boat. Odessey also has more capacity / size options.

 

I run Hawker 12volt tubular plate monoblocs "12TP110" which give excellent DOD and cycle life, see also XFC product, another good cycle life high capacity product due to its construction . See Hawker website

 

Well I'm certainly not going to argue about it being the best battery in the world. I can't because I haven't tested every battery in the world! But it is most definitely the best battery I've ever tested.

 

The brand new one I have (had - it's not brand new anymore) has now done just over 100 cycles to 10.5 volts under load (at various discharge currents between C/10 up to C/2). Its capacity has now fallen to 120Ahr (it started at 130Ahrs despite what the label says). That would have killed most batteries stone dead.

 

Even the one sent to me that was a little bit iffy has now regained all its original capacity and is back up to 120Ahrs just from several cycles with a proper charge.

 

Interesting what you say about the Odessey as I've just had a question very much related to this. I said I needed one to test it.

[Robin2]

Well I'm certainly not going to argue about it being the best battery in the world. I can't because I haven't tested every battery in the world! But it is most definitely the best battery I've ever tested.

 

The brand new one I have (had - it's not brand new anymore) has now done just over 100 cycles to 10.5 volts under load (at various discharge currents between C/10 up to C/2). Its capacity has now fallen to 120Ahr (it started at 130Ahrs despite what the label says). That would have killed most batteries stone dead.

 

Even the one sent to me that was a little bit iffy has now regained all its original capacity and is back up to 120Ahrs just from several cycles with a proper charge.

 

Interesting what you say about the Odessey as I've just had a question very much related to this. I said I needed one to test it.

 

I see the Odyssey batteries are on your Merlin website. The main Odyssey site says you can charge them as quickly as you can put current into them, but it has no data on how many cycles they will live through. I haven't done any sums yet, but if you really could charge them at the full alternator output they might save a lot of fuel. I guess you would need some sort of specialized constant high current charger?

[Gibbo]

I see the Odyssey batteries are on your Merlin website. The main Odyssey site says you can charge them as quickly as you can put current into them, but it has no data on how many cycles they will live through. I haven't done any sums yet, but if you really could charge them at the full alternator output they might save a lot of fuel. I guess you would need some sort of specialized constant high current charger?

 

I have never done any testing on those batteries so I really don't know. I'm completely in the dark what Merlin carry in stock or what happens on their website. I hide away in a research lab developing things. Occasionally they drag me out, walk me round for 5 minutes then put me back in.

 

But I will be shortly getting one of those batteries for some tests.

 

I do know that no battery on this planet will accept current as fast as you can throw it at it though.

 

Edit to fix broken fingers.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Gibbo

[Gibbo]

Update

 

The Hawker battery, now it's settled down and got rid of its "newness" is showing a consistent charge efficiency of 90%. Not as good as it was, but still excellent.

[Robin2]

 

I do know that no battery on this planet will accept current as fast as you can throw it at it though.

 

Edit to fix broken fingers.

 

Please don't take me so literally - all I meant was "a lot of current" or "the whole 60 amps from my alternators when the engine is idling" and the Odyssey website certainly implies that that is possible.

 

There is a business opportunity here for you and Merlin developing a suitable charger for these exceptional batteries.

[Justme]

He is an engineer.

 

Its black or white.

 

Please see DILBERT for a fuller explanation.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Justme

[Gibbo]

Please don't take me so literally - all I meant was "a lot of current" or "the whole 60 amps from my alternators when the engine is idling" and the Odyssey website certainly implies that that is possible.

 

But that's the whole point, at 90% SOC there's no way on this planet a 100Ahr battery will accept 60 amps. Never. Not in a million years.

 

There is a business opportunity here for you and Merlin developing a suitable charger for these exceptional batteries.

 

It is something I've wanted to do for a very long time. A charger that achieves amp.hour law charging and self adapts to the batteries being used. A few of us meddled with the idea several years ago but it's far from simple and requires all sorts of extra external gadgets.

[Robin2]

But that's the whole point, at 90% SOC there's no way on this planet a 100Ahr battery will accept 60 amps. Never. Not in a million years.

 

 

You are still being too literal ... Following is text from the Odyssey website

 

In fact, with a powerful enough charger, it is possible to bring ODYSSEY batteries to better than 95% state of charge in under 20 minutes!

 

Of course they don't say it will take 60 amps at 90% SOC but clearly it can take a lot more current than other batteries.

 

 

It is something I've wanted to do for a very long time. A charger that achieves amp.hour law charging and self adapts to the batteries being used. A few of us meddled with the idea several years ago but it's far from simple and requires all sorts of extra external gadgets.

 

My point is to make a charger for a specific type of battery so that you can simplify the product. If the batteries really are good a specialized charger would make an unbeatable combination.

[Chris Pink]

I see the Odyssey batteries are on your Merlin website. The main Odyssey site says you can charge them as quickly as you can put current into them, but it has no data on how many cycles they will live through. I haven't done any sums yet, but if you really could charge them at the full alternator output they might save a lot of fuel. I guess you would need some sort of specialized constant high current charger?

 

 

You've been drooling over the glossies too long.

 

The Odyssey 2250 comes in at £2.40 per Ah (bb4u.biz) always assuming you can go and pick them up, otherwise add another 50p per ah for carriage.

 

Compare that with the commonly accepted 'best buy' of a US2200 or Trojan equivalent at just over £1 per Ah (and you can get carriage included for that).

 

And then factor in a battery charger that will keep up....

[Robin2]

You've been drooling over the glossies too long.

 

The Odyssey 2250 comes in at £2.40 per Ah (bb4u.biz) always assuming you can go and pick them up, otherwise add another 50p per ah for carriage.

 

Compare that with the commonly accepted 'best buy' of a US2200 or Trojan equivalent at just over £1 per Ah (and you can get carriage included for that).

 

And then factor in a battery charger that will keep up....

At this stage I am just doing some blue-sky thinking ...

 

The Odyssey batteries seem to be the same, or very similar to the Hawker batteries that have got Gibbo drooling ...

 

Of course the £2.40 per Ah is an obstacle and it would take some careful calculation to decide whether to invest. But if you could reduce annual charging times and fuel usage by 25% ????

[sueanddaren]

I have never done any testing on those batteries so I really don't know. I'm completely in the dark what Merlin carry in stock or what happens on their website. I hide away in a research lab developing things. Occasionally they drag me out, walk me round for 5 minutes then put me back in.

 

But I will be shortly getting one of those batteries for some tests.

 

I do know that no battery on this planet will accept current as fast as you can throw it at it though.

 

Edit to fix broken fingers.

"research lab" you're lucky all I have these days is is a cupboard. When the door opens they send me to the other side of the country or the other side of the world,to sort out some pain that someone has inflicted on a poor defenceless battery.

[Boatgypsy]

At this stage I am just doing some blue-sky thinking ...

 

The Odyssey batteries seem to be the same, or very similar to the Hawker batteries that have got Gibbo drooling ...

 

Of course the £2.40 per Ah is an obstacle and it would take some careful calculation to decide whether to invest. But if you could reduce annual charging times and fuel usage by 25% ????

 

Doing some surfing for a price on these Odessey batteries, I came up with a best price of £230 - still eye wateringly high!

 

http://www.griffinbatterycentres.com/j/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=20

[Chris Pink]

At this stage I am just doing some blue-sky thinking ...

 

The Odyssey batteries seem to be the same, or very similar to the Hawker batteries that have got Gibbo drooling ...

 

Of course the £2.40 per Ah is an obstacle and it would take some careful calculation to decide whether to invest. But if you could reduce annual charging times and fuel usage by 25% ????

 

My annual electricity generation bill is £20 a month for 6 months and I consider myself to be a fairly high 12V user.

 

So it's going to be difficult to save that difference on fuel.

 

Of course the battery life differential is harder to estimate but I figure there's a danger of abusing the odyssey batteries to death, maybe not quite as easily as some but still possible.

 

There's a lot of diminishing returns in niche markets.

 

It's not even clear whether US2200s are cost effective against twice as many Numax cheapies although the convenience (likewise your possible reduced charging time) is worth paying money for.

 

Doing some surfing for a price on these Odessey batteries, I came up with a best price of £230 - still eye wateringly high!

 

http://www.griffinbatterycentres.com/j/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=20

 

That one is 100 ah = £2.30 per ah

[Chalky]

I hide away in a research lab developing things. Occasionally they drag me out, walk me round for 5 minutes then put me back in.

snap - great isn't it!

[Nickhlx]

 

That one is 100 ah = £2.30 per ah

 

The Trojan T-125 ( 6 volt, 240 aH and about £140) Using 2 in series to make 12 volt 240 aH would cost around £280 or about £1-16 per aH. They claim 1200 cycles to 70% depth of discharge - surely this is a pretty good spec and price ? ( or do they only last a couple of years ?)

 

Nick

[Gibbo]

"research lab" you're lucky all I have these days is is a cupboard.

 

I use the term loosely. I design electronic devices, I write software, I test batteries. No one has to visit it and actually see it. Whilst I have all the equipment I could possibly imagine, I'm sure you can imagine what it actually looks like.

 

 

 

The heavy stuff goes in the garage. I've still got a quarter ton of batteries on the 2nd floor here though.

[nb Innisfree]

I use the term loosely. I design electronic devices, I write software, I test batteries. No one has to visit it and actually see it. Whilst I have all the equipment I could possibly imagine, I'm sure you can imagine what it actually looks like.

 

 

 

The heavy stuff goes in the garage. I've still got a quarter ton of batteries on the 2nd floor here though.

 

Nice table lamps...

[Grace and Favour]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you check the fuse first?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Coat

[J R]

I use the term loosely. I design electronic devices, I write software, I test batteries. No one has to visit it and actually see it. Whilst I have all the equipment I could possibly imagine, I'm sure you can imagine what it actually looks like.

 

 

 

The heavy stuff goes in the garage. I've still got a quarter ton of batteries on the 2nd floor here though.

 

I'm impressed. Wish my office was that tidy

[ditchcrawler]

I see the Odyssey batteries are on your Merlin website. The main Odyssey site says you can charge them as quickly as you can put current into them, but it has no data on how many cycles they will live through. I haven't done any sums yet, but if you really could charge them at the full alternator output they might save a lot of fuel. I guess you would need some sort of specialized constant high current charger?

There is a chap in Oxford who uses Odyssey batteries in his diesel electric drive system see his blog

 

I see the Odyssey batteries are on your Merlin website. The main Odyssey site says you can charge them as quickly as you can put current into them, but it has no data on how many cycles they will live through. I haven't done any sums yet, but if you really could charge them at the full alternator output they might save a lot of fuel. I guess you would need some sort of specialized constant high current charger?

There is a chap in Oxford who uses Odyssey batteries in his diesel electric drive system see his blog

[Justme]

Will you need to redo the SG programming to take account of how these batteries perform?

[Gibbo]

Will you need to redo the SG programming to take account of how these batteries perform?

 

Yes, in fact I've already done it. Well, I have done the battery model.

 

Standard wet cell (type 1) works fine during discharge but it's quite a bit out during charge showing a much slower increase in SOC than reality. I've corrected that.

 

For new units, we're deciding whether to put it in as a standard model, and if so which current one to replace. Alternatively, if anyone already has one and uses those batteries it can be programmed, in the field, into the custom battery model hole in SG.

 

So in summary I don't need to touch the actual SG program, just the battery model. And a new custom model can be put in "in the field" via a hidden menu.

 

Nice table lamps...

 

 

I needed a quick load of around that value and the main loads were in the garage. These were much closer (and I'm lazy).

 

Mrs Gibbo wasn't particularly impressed.

[Robin2]

My annual electricity generation bill is £20 a month for 6 months and I consider myself to be a fairly high 12V user.

 

So it's going to be difficult to save that difference on fuel.

 

<SNIP>

 

My fuel bill is much higher - I have no solar panels.

 

Just did a few calculations. If the Odyssey batteries accept much higher currents than a cheap battery they would reduce engine run times significantly. But not enough to justify the high price.