BW - an "asset" to be sold off ?

[Guest]

You need to read the channel 4 news item quite carefully. The quote from the Government is that there is to be a committee to look into asset sales. The inclusion of BWB in the list of assets owned by the Government is only an example of assets owned by the Government and the choice of assets included is Channel 4's . The list is not part of the quote from the Government.

 

You can read the news item here

 

Cheers Graham

 

Didn't I just post that in post #13?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Dr Richard Beeching would soon be back close the line. Governments are keen on the cost-saving elements rather than those requiring investment. More than 4,000 miles of railway and 3,000 stations closed in the decade following the Beeching axe falling.

 

M and M

 

You are not doubt correct, even if he has been dead for 25 years. I am resigned to moving the coffee table only to be able to reinstate it post Beeching II.

[seaandland]

The trust should begin in 2012, its likely that on Oct 20th 2010 B/W will be told how much grant they will be getting for the next 5 years, this with property income and what they hope to raise from donations and the usual income from boaters and moorings ect, should ?? B/W has you believe, all will be ok and nothing to worry about. in reality, the government have tried on 3 or 4 times to take the property and its only time before they do, at the moment property is valued about 500m, and sure to rise. No one on the bank really believes that B/W will get the donations they expect and i doubt too that they will have enough volunteers to help existing staff to run the system. I think the canal trusts has a large part to play in keeping canals open, because there won’t be enough money pumped into them to keep the efficiently clean, tidy and manageable. Worrying times ahead for both staff and boating folk, we are all going to pay one way or another.

[cotswoldsman]

I attended one of the BW South East User group meetings this week and the plans and progress toward a 'Civil Society' were outlined. It could happen very soon.

 

A "Civil Society" please no does this mean we have to be polite???? Bad enough that we will all soon be part of a "Big Society" without also having to be civil!!

 

radical idea but maybe someone should utilise the inland waterways for transporting non perishable freight. Must be some revenue in that idea somewhere

 

 

 

Will never work!!

[Josher]

Hmm, who would want to buy the canals?

Peel Holdings purchased the Manchester Ship Canal Company and then unlocked the value of the land by building the Trafford Centre and developing Salford Quays. They subsequently added the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and just last week submitted plans for Wirral Waters - enough development to keep them busy for the next 50 years! Ocean Gateway

 

Fears for future of Birmingham canals as British Waterways axed

 

Read More Birmingham Post

[Allan(nb Albert)]

The trust should begin in 2012, its likely that on Oct 20th 2010 B/W will be told how much grant they will be getting for the next 5 years, this with property income and what they hope to raise from donations and the usual income from boaters and moorings ect, should ?? B/W has you believe, all will be ok and nothing to worry about. in reality, the government have tried on 3 or 4 times to take the property and its only time before they do, at the moment property is valued about 500m, and sure to rise. No one on the bank really believes that B/W will get the donations they expect and i doubt too that they will have enough volunteers to help existing staff to run the system. I think the canal trusts has a large part to play in keeping canals open, because there won’t be enough money pumped into them to keep the efficiently clean, tidy and manageable. Worrying times ahead for both staff and boating folk, we are all going to pay one way or another.

 

BW's property is currently valued at £377m and has fallen from the £500m figure quoted above over the last two years.

 

They also have BWML, a subsidiary, and interests in several joint ventures which account for a further £81.9m in assets.

 

Property does not contribute £45m a year to maintaining the canals. Leaving aside government grant, it is leisure (mainly boating income)that is the largest contributor.

 

Boaters are biggest contributors

Edited October 8, 2010 by Allan(nb Albert)

[carlt]

2

Leaving aside government grant, it is leisure (mainly boating income)that is the largest contributor.

 

How much is the government grant?

 

Why do you "leave it aside", other than because it has more impact than "Boaters are not the largest contributor".

[Pluto]

2

How much is the government grant?

 

Why do you "leave it aside", other than because it has more impact than "Boaters are not the largest contributor".

AFAIC the government grant just covers the land drainage aspect of BW, and boaters pay for additional infrastructure required for boats. All the other benefits waterways bring cost the country nowt. At the end of August, I asked the Waterways Minister for the DEFRA view of the land drainage aspect of BW's work. Still no response as I think they are frightened by new EU policies on land drainage which could result in DEFRA having to pay further fines for non-compliance. Thus they don't want to commit anything to paper, let alone tell the public.

[carlt]

AFAIC the government grant just covers the land drainage aspect of BW, and boaters pay for additional infrastructure required for boats. All the other benefits waterways bring cost the country nowt. At the end of August, I asked the Waterways Minister for the DEFRA view of the land drainage aspect of BW's work. Still no response as I think they are frightened by new EU policies on land drainage which could result in DEFRA having to pay further fines for non-compliance. Thus they don't want to commit anything to paper, let alone tell the public.

£70 million, for land drainage?

 

Compare this to...£16.8M for licences and £6.8M for moorings and it doesn't even come close.

[Pluto]

£70 million, for land drainage?

 

Compare this to...£16.8M for licences and £6.8M for moorings and it doesn't even come close.

Just received a reply from DEFRA which doesn't give any specific answers to questions about BW's management etc. Only the usual verbiage which civil servants put out on their politicians behalf.

 

On the cost of waterways, the £70 million government grant works out at less than £30,000 per mile of waterway per annum. Given that, when in use commercially, waterways required one man per mile of canal for maintenance ignoring any other support staff, they are underfunded today, which leads to my statement that I consider that government funding only covers the land drainage aspect of inland waterways. They provide no funding for boaters, money for their services coming from licenses and mooring, while they pay lip service to heritage and conservation, with no designated funding for those aspects of waterways.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

How much is the government grant?

 

That we will find out when government decide!

 

For planning purposes BW is assuming a Defra grant of £47m this year.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Allan

[carlt]

That we will find out when government decide!

 

For planning purposes BW is assuming a Defra grant of £47m this year.

 

So boaters are not the biggest contributors then (if we don't disregard the biggest contributor)?

[cotswoldsman]

That we will find out when government decide!

 

For planning purposes BW is assuming a Defra grant of £47m this year.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Allan

 

I think for planning purposes this has been underestimated.

 

BW's property is currently valued at £377m and has fallen from the £500m figure quoted above over the last two years.

 

They also have BWML, a subsidiary, and interests in several joint ventures which account for a further £81.9m in assets.

 

Property does not contribute £45m a year to maintaining the canals. Leaving aside government grant, it is leisure (mainly boating income)that is the largest contributor.

 

Boaters are biggest contributors

 

Allan i have read your article and as usual I impressed with the Daily Mail type reporting. Somewhere in there you mention that the property figure might (you I presume have nothing to bear out this assumption) a contribution from higher values on properties, surely if this was true you would be able to point us at the figures showing this. Surely if there was a revalue on property and it was higher it would go into the balance sheet and not shown as a contribution?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I think for planning purposes this has been underestimated.

 

 

 

Allan i have read your article and as usual I impressed with the Daily Mail type reporting. Somewhere in there you mention that the property figure might (you I presume have nothing to bear out this assumption) a contribution from higher values on properties, surely if this was true you would be able to point us at the figures showing this. Surely if there was a revalue on property and it was higher it would go into the balance sheet and not shown as a contribution?

 

I have not made an assumption. I said 'might'!

 

The two important points about the property that I hope have stuck with anybody reading the article are:-

 

• 
   
  
• Property is not contributing £45m pa towards running our canals. BW's own figures suggest that it is only about a third of this at £16.1m
  
• Property makes the lowest contribution to maintaining the waterways.
   
  

 

As an aside, I would be interested to hear why you think Defra will give BW more than £47m this year.

[cotswoldsman]

 

 

As an aside, I would be interested to hear why you think Defra will give BW more than £47m this year.

 

Allan like you I don't know but am hoping that for budget purposes the figure might be underestimated as I am a glass half full type of guy

[carlt]

 

As an aside, I would be interested to hear why you think Defra will give BW more than £47m this year.

When working as a civil engineer, in local government, I always tried to underestimate my forecast budget. It softened the blow, when the true figures were released.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Allan like you I don't know but am hoping that for budget purposes the figure might be underestimated as I am a glass half full type of guy

 

We both live in hope!

 

BW is budgeting on a reduction of Defra grant this year of about £16m (25%). Whilst we can hope the reduction is less it is probably realistic in that BW's last reorganisation should have saved the £10m pa.

 

BW's plans do not consider what would happen if government sells off any of its assets.

 

When working as a civil engineer, in local government, I always tried to underestimate my forecast budget. It softened the blow, when the true figures were released.

 

Did civil engineers build the civil society?

[carlt]

Did civil engineers build the civil society?

I built roads (but very politely).

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I built roads (but very politely).

 

Here is some Customer feedback

Edited October 8, 2010 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Josher]

Perhaps tapping in to the European agenda has some merit?

 

"EU transport commissioner Siim Kallas has called for more attention to be given at EU and national level to the "added value" of Europe’s inland waterways. Speaking in parliament, the Estonian official said the potential economic benefit of this type of transport was often overlooked.He said the potential of Europe's massive network of inland waterways was yet to be "fully exploited", adding, "It is time to make the added value of inland navigation more visible."

 

Kallas, who is also a vice president of the commission, was a keynote speaker at an awareness-raising event, called "meet and greet your inland port," organised in parliament by the European Federation of Inland Ports (EFIP)."

 

Full article Here (The Parliament)

[Morat]

It's certainly about time we in the UK learnt to play the European system properly instead of relying on donations and the HLF. There are all sorts of great little projects in France that have been organised at the Departmental level and funded by the EU.

[Nightwatch]

I built roads (but very politely).

Middle of the road?

 

Here is some Customer feedback

I know someone who hit a massive pothole. Wrote off two alloy wheels and tyres. made a claim to Surrey Council and received £830.00.

 

Not their money I guess.

 

Martyn

[NBDensie]

BW's property is currently valued at £377m and has fallen from the £500m figure quoted above over the last two years.

 

They also have BWML, a subsidiary, and interests in several joint ventures which account for a further £81.9m in assets.

 

Property does not contribute £45m a year to maintaining the canals. Leaving aside government grant, it is leisure (mainly boating income)that is the largest contributor.

 

Boaters are biggest contributors

 

I think this type of reporting is more Daily Express than Daily Mail.

 

 

 

BWs figure of gross income from property of 45M from property dates from the 2008/2009 accounts. The figure for 2009/2010 was £33M, the difference between 2008/2009 and 2009/2010 being apparently due to a special one-off event in 2008. It would be interesting to know why they expect a drop to £14M for 2010/2011.

 

As to boaters contribution rising to 38% I would suggest that this gives some indication of the loss of funding we might be expecting. Put it this way: in 2009/2010 the total income was £187M of which boaters paid about £34M - 18%. (Note that this comprises gross income from licences,moorings,BWML and retail sales. For a full analysis you would need to take off the costs of these). Now if you are projecting a rise in boaters % to 38% that would suggest a drop in total income to about £88M, unless of course there is a major increase in the charges on boaters.

 

So Allan's figures (if they and his analysis of them are correct) suggest, not a triumph for boaters, but a complete disaster for the waterways. What a pity this is being seen as a stick to beat up BW rather than a campaigning focus to ensure the waterways are properly funded.

[magpie patrick]

Perhaps tapping in to the European agenda has some merit?

 

"EU transport commissioner Siim Kallas has called for more attention to be given at EU and national level to the "added value" of Europe’s inland waterways. Speaking in parliament, the Estonian official said the potential economic benefit of this type of transport was often overlooked.He said the potential of Europe's massive network of inland waterways was yet to be "fully exploited", adding, "It is time to make the added value of inland navigation more visible."

 

Kallas, who is also a vice president of the commission, was a keynote speaker at an awareness-raising event, called "meet and greet your inland port," organised in parliament by the European Federation of Inland Ports (EFIP)."

 

Full article Here (The Parliament)

 

This is where the (sometimes criticised) EU expansion can reap dividends. The Baltic Nations, and Poland, and Slovenia, love their waterways. Harnessed, they make a powerful lobby. Poland in particular has a fascinating network to rival ours, and knows it

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I think this type of reporting is more Daily Express than Daily Mail.

 

 

 

BWs figure of gross income from property of 45M from property dates from the 2008/2009 accounts. The figure for 2009/2010 was £33M, the difference between 2008/2009 and 2009/2010 being apparently due to a special one-off event in 2008. It would be interesting to know why they expect a drop to £14M for 2010/2011.

 

As to boaters contribution rising to 38% I would suggest that this gives some indication of the loss of funding we might be expecting. Put it this way: in 2009/2010 the total income was £187M of which boaters paid about £34M - 18%. (Note that this comprises gross income from licences,moorings,BWML and retail sales. For a full analysis you would need to take off the costs of these). Now if you are projecting a rise in boaters % to 38% that would suggest a drop in total income to about £88M, unless of course there is a major increase in the charges on boaters.

 

So Allan's figures (if they and his analysis of them are correct) suggest, not a triumph for boaters, but a complete disaster for the waterways. What a pity this is being seen as a stick to beat up BW rather than a campaigning focus to ensure the waterways are properly funded.

 

The Daily Express and Daily Mail are the only two 'National Morning Mid Market' newspapers, sitting between popular and quality ends of the market. Unfortunately, quality comes at the price of readership. However, as the Daily Mails circulation figures are second only to the Sun, I am quite happy at the comparison.

 

The figures given in the article are not mine but BW's provided under the Freedom of Information Act.

 

NBDensie is quite right in pointing out that the figures are not a triumph for boaters (although I do not think I made this claim!) but a complete disaster for the waterways.

 

This year BW need to spend about £130m on the waterways to stop them deteriorating. The plan, such as it is, is to spend less than £90m!