Ellesmere Port Boat Museum

[Mike C]

no matter how you gloss it over the boats ARE A DISGRACE and if i was in charge i would have taken steps to at least tidy them up, something the museum has not done in a long time.

i have put in quite a few hours at the museum in the past so have done something to help, but living at the opposite end of the country makes it difficult to give more.

coupled with my heavy commitment at the wey and arun canal i cannot do more, we try as much as possible to maintain all we have restored as well as advancing the restoration of the derelict parts.

so the warm office / home is hardly a reason for lack of effort in keeping up appearances by the staff at Ellesmere, piss poor management is the reason the museum is in the state it is. the state of the canal is BW responsibility but the boats and the museum are not and as such the management need to get out there and clean the place up otherwise people will not bother to visit.

 

as for folk associated they are doing what exactly to keep the boats there because to me it looks all they are doing to keep them there is leaving them sunk, full of water and silt!! hardly takes any effort at all!

 

 

 

 

exactly the points i made above

 

It would be churlish of me to suggest that the fact that the Wey and Arun is not fully navigable is an “absolute disgrace, someone should do something about that” This is not how I feel and I take my hat off to you for what you are doing, as such I’m even more surprised by the comments you make and they way you have delivered them.

 

When I looked at the Wey and Arun web site just now I did not see the photos of the trees in the bed of the canal and feel the need to berate the society for not having removed them and allowing them to continue to grow and damage the puddle still further. after all to remove them "hardly takes any effort at all!" !!

 

As a previous crew of ‘M&F’ – a pair of boats I know well, you will be even more aware of the costs and time involved in keeping timber craft such as this in good operational condition which is made even more difficult when funding issues are brought into the fray and all restoration and repairs are required to be historically accurate and not, as in the case of M&F as hotel boats, what is best to deliver the craft into a commercially viable passenger carrier.

 

I look forward to being able to boat along the Wey and Arun in future years and support all the good things you and others have done and feel no need to condemn you for the areas of the line of the canal which are continuing to deteriorate as yet untouched but which I’m sure feature somewhere in your plans for the future. I look forward to again walking along bits of the old line of the canal sometime soon.

[carlt]

 

As a previous crew of ‘M&F’ – a pair of boats I know well, you will be even more aware of the costs and time involved in keeping timber craft such as this in good operational condition which is made even more difficult when funding issues are brought into the fray and all restoration and repairs are required to be historically accurate and not, as in the case of M&F as hotel boats, what is best to deliver the craft into a commercially viable passenger carrier.

As M&F are being returned to their working trim (though Mabel, for obvious reasons, will not be returned to "as built"), this is probably a bad example, particularly as the owners' funds are even more limited, being unable to afford a new cafe, gift shop and "interactive exhibits".

Edited August 28, 2010 by carlt

[marcus]

Why have any? It is not as though there is a lack of good examples.

 

They should be concentrating on the boats that are less likely to find owners will or able to take them on

Edited August 28, 2010 by marcus

[Mike C]

As M&F are being returned to their working trim (though Mabel, for obvious reasons, will not be returned to "as built"), this is probably a bad example, particularly as the owners' funds are even more limited, being unable to afford a new cafe, gift shop and "interactive exhibits".

"new cafe, gift shop" - Provides a profit to help pay for the running of the museum and the collection. Developed with a grant which was specifically non-transferable into boat maintenance.

 

"interactive exhibits" - Paid for with a grant specifically non-transferable into boat maintenance, keeps the museum in line with others as a vistor attraction therfore = visitors which inturn equals revenue.

[carlt]

"new cafe, gift shop" - Provides a profit to help pay for the running of the museum and the collection. Developed with a grant which was specifically non-transferable into boat maintenance.

 

"interactive exhibits" - Paid for with a grant specifically non-transferable into boat maintenance, keeps the museum in line with others as a vistor attraction therfore = visitors which inturn equals revenue.

Perhaps the wrong grants were applied for, then.

[Mike C]

Why have any? It is not as though there is a lack of good examples.

 

They should be concentrating on the boats that are less likely to find owners will or able to take them on

 

Mark – Its not a closed archive it’s a Museum, A major part of its funding comes from local educational visits, it would be daft to have no Joshers at all. I don’t need to see them necessarily….I’m in the enviable position to be paid to look at quite a few, but I agree that three is quite a lot, however as you know too they are all actually quite different. Even so that aspect of the museum isn’t necessarily there to satisfy yours or my needs (or Reubens!!)– but yes I do take your point that the collection is unnecessarily heavily weighted that way, but they were given/loaned to them and they are relatively cheap to keep, there pretty boats and the general public and one off or occasional visitors are shown something that appeals to them and that easily demonstrates it is about much more than ‘Rosie and Jim’.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Mike C

[carlt]

Mark – Its not a closed archive it’s a Museum, A major part of its funding comes from local educational visits, it would be daft to have no Joshers at all. I don’t need to see them necessarily….I’m in the enviable position to be paid to look at quite a few, but I agree that three is quite a lot, however as you know too they are all actually quite different. Even so that aspect of the museum isn’t necessarily there to satisfy yours or my needs (or Reubens!!)– but yes I do take your point that the collection is unnecessarily heavily weighted that way, but they were given/loaned to them and they are relatively cheap to keep, there pretty boats and the general public and one off or occasional visitors are shown something that appeals to them and that demonstrates it is about much more ‘Rosie and Jim’.

Who is Marcus??

 

A museum's prime responsibility should be to preserve and restore the "unsexy" examples.

 

Sell the pretty stuff and save the important stuff. All you are really defending here, is the gloss, to keep visitors happy.

 

The core work of the museum, or at least what should be, is crumbling away.

[Mike C]

A museum's prime responsibility should be to preserve and restore the "unsexy" examples.

 

 

Financed by what if not visitors and grants, that are themselves related to visitor numbers?

[carlt]

Financed by what if not visitors and grants, that are themselves related to visitor numbers?

They're not financing the restoration of the collection, though, are they?

[Mike C]

They're not financing the restoration of the collection, though, are they?

??? Yes they are, go and take a look. or use the link – (sorry- I don’t know haw to make it a ‘clicky’) http://nwm.org.uk/ellesmere/HeritageBoatyard.html

 

The museum is a stakeholder and partner and the funding secured is related to the museum visitor numbers and the museum as a facility open to the general public.

[carlt]

??? Yes they are, go and take a look. or use the link – (sorry- I don’t know haw to make it a ‘clicky’) http://nwm.org.uk/ellesmere/HeritageBoatyard.html

 

The museum is a stakeholder and partner and the funding secured is related to the museum visitor numbers and the museum as a facility open to the general public.

So what are the plans, boat by boat, of the wooden boats in the collection (I see no specifics, in that page you linked to)?

Edited August 28, 2010 by carlt

[Pluto]

??? Yes they are, go and take a look. or use the link – (sorry- I don’t know haw to make it a ‘clicky’) http://nwm.org.uk/ellesmere/HeritageBoatyard.html

 

The museum is a stakeholder and partner and the funding secured is related to the museum visitor numbers and the museum as a facility open to the general public.

Sufficient long-term funding is the big problem. Funding decisions are always political - and when did you last see a politician making a decision based on what is best for society as a whole - so they tend to want things which offer some return, and thus they are able to justify financially their decisions to their voters. To get round this, it is necessary to write to local and national politicians to complain, as sufficient funding will only be put in place when politicians feel it will reduce their post bag. The same result is required to increase the funding for waterways in general, so don't just post here, write to those who make the decisions.

 

So what are the plans, boat by boat, of the wooden boats in the collection (I see no specifics, in that page you linked to)?

Carl, you are knowledgeable about wooden boats, so what would your list be? Mine would probably have Mossdale at the top, closely followed by George and Gwendoline, as this would go some way to preserving the origins of inland craft from the coastal sailing boats of the Mersey and the Humber. Mossdale and George are full carvel construction, while Gwendoline, though carvel, exhibits features of clinker construction originally found on the East Coast. With the need to train boat builders for the long term, a couple of wooden narrowboats would be handy, given their relative simplicity in construction.

[DHutch]

Carl, you are knowledgeable about wooden boats, so what would your list be? Mine would probably have Mossdale at the top, closely followed by George and Gwendoline, as this would go some way to preserving the origins of inland craft from the coastal sailing boats of the Mersey and the Humber. Mossdale and George are full carvel construction, while Gwendoline, though carvel, exhibits features of clinker construction originally found on the East Coast. With the need to train boat builders for the long term, a couple of wooden narrowboats would be handy, given their relative simplicity in construction.

Sounds good to me.

 

In terms of funding, im going to be the first to hold my hand up as knowing very little about what is going on, what has gone on, and options have are best. However given that government appears not to be forwards currently, what are the other options? Is there any scope for substatial (or otherwise) lottery grands? Financial donations from 'friends of the boat museum' ?

 

 

Daniel

[carlt]

Carl, you are knowledgeable about wooden boats, so what would your list be? Mine would probably have Mossdale at the top, closely followed by George and Gwendoline, as this would go some way to preserving the origins of inland craft from the coastal sailing boats of the Mersey and the Humber. Mossdale and George are full carvel construction, while Gwendoline, though carvel, exhibits features of clinker construction originally found on the East Coast. With the need to train boat builders for the long term, a couple of wooden narrowboats would be handy, given their relative simplicity in construction.

I wouldn't argue with that, though I'd put Gwendoline at the top of my list, for purely heart over head reasons, though.

 

I would also send someone down to Shoreham, to offer the owner of Guidance a swap, for a state of the art houseboat, to get the last wooden Sheffield size keel into a properly funded, carefully thought out national collection that transcends the needs of tourists and day visitors.

 

Our National Heritage should not stand or fall at the whim of a Latte and muffin buyer, or whether some kid wants a pencil top dinosaur rubber, out of the museum shop.

 

This isn't an attack at the museum staff, btw, but at a system that couldn't give a damn about history and heritage but just wants to pull in the punters.

 

Is there any scope for substatial (or otherwise) lottery grands? Financial donations from 'friends of the boat museum' ?

 

Having lived with someone who was heavily involved with advising on getting grants and funding, it is evident that the people that dish out the dosh have a tendency to say "But didn't you get £100k off us, for a new coffee shop, a couple of years ago?"

[Pluto]

I wouldn't argue with that, though I'd put Gwendoline at the top of my list, for purely heart over head reasons, though.

 

I would also send someone down to Shoreham, to offer the owner of Guidance a swap, for a state of the art houseboat, to get the last wooden Sheffield size keel into a properly funded, carefully thought out national collection that transcends the needs of tourists and day visitors.

 

Our National Heritage should not stand or fall at the whim of a Latte and muffin buyer, or whether some kid wants a pencil top dinosaur rubber, out of the museum shop.

 

This isn't an attack at the museum staff, btw, but at a system that couldn't give a damn about history and heritage but just wants to pull in the punters.

 

I certainly agree with that, having worked with Tony Conder on putting together a national collection list for inland waterway boats almost ten years ago. Pity the Waterways Trust sacked him just when the definitive list was coming together, and he was almost ready for seeking large-scale funding.

 

Regarding wooden Yorkshire keels, I did photograph the one on which so much money was spent in Sheffield. Pity they didn't record it properly before they started work. By the time I got over to photograph her, work had ceased and the hull was no longer really viable for restoration.

 

I think the most interesting Yorkshire remains, if they are still there, are on the Ouse, on the opposite bank and just upstream of Goole Docks When I photographed them fifteen years or so ago, there were at least two clinker hulls there, though only the bottoms remained. You could still see the clinker construction though. The other interesting clinker boat I found was on Hayling Island, around thirty years ago. It looked very much like a Norfolk Wherry, and several had made their way down there in the nineteenth century. I went back to photograph it again a few years later, and found that it had just been burnt.

[boatmanckp]

I have fond memories of the late Dr.David Owen proudly at the helm of "Ethel" coming through York at the time of the National rally there (1975?) Ethel was a Calder and Hebble boat that was given to the museum by its owners when it ceased trading.It was brought via the Leeds and Liverpool canal etc to Ellesmere port where it molded away to nothing. One day I will find the pictures that I took.CKP

[Josher]

Good news:

 

Waterways museum awarded new status

 

Published date: 05 November 2010 | Chester First

 

THE National Waterways Museum in Ellesmere Port is celebrating after achieving accredited status. The status, which recognises the museum’s high standards in preserving and documenting its collections, is granted by the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council – the UK’s governing body for museums.

 

Collections manager Peter Collins said: “Gaining accreditation means we have an official seal of approval for the work we do here and we’re going to be using this to further improve our collections.”

 

Museum manager John Inch said: “This accolade is a fantastic achievement for Peter and his team and it is yet another milestone for the museum’s development.”

 

Next year will see the development of a new room in the archives to make them more accessible for museum visitors and give people an informal place to research canal history. An increasing number of visitors are using the extensive waterways archives to research their family history and this new development will improve the museum’s research facilities.

 

The National Waterways Museum, at Ellesmere Port, is home to the national collection of historic working boats, some of which visitors can board to explore and find out how the working boat people used to live. The museum also has a trip boat, hands-on exhibits, films, touch-screen displays, stables, a blacksmith, docks, pump houses, workers’ cottages and gardens, an archive, a soft play area and museum shop and cafe.

 

The Waterways Trust is a national charity which works in partnership with individuals, communities and organisations to conserve, restore, improve and interpret all aspects of the UK’s inland waterways. It owns and operates three waterways museums.

[carlt]

The status, which recognises the museum’s high standards in preserving and documenting its collections, is granted by the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council – the UK’s governing body for museums.

Once I picked myself up, off the floor, and the uncontrollable laughter subsided, I wonder if the MLAC actually visited the site and, if so, how the museum staff managed to hide the collection they are "preserving".

[Mick_B]

I found the museum very interesting but was sorry only to have half the time needed to see it all properly. I was however interested in the cottages and how they changed in a reletivly short space of time. Reflecting how quickly times were changing at the time of the demise of canal transport. Some pics towards the end HERE.

[stagedamager]

I agree with carl, its all very well getting new status, and touch screens and the like, but what about the rotting and rusting hulks lying around, whats going to happen to them, are they resigned to being broken up and then smoky historic pictures displayed on the nice touch screens in a "Lets see what you could have won" style. Its all very well expanding the archive for the public, but these boats should be made a priority. now is the time to sort out where the priorities of the museum lie, i understand its about getting people through the doors but unless the boats are restored, all you're going to see is a few touch screens (if indeed they are working), an expanded but hideously overspent archive room and a token gift shop to get some fudge with a pretty picture on. Forgive the pessimistic view but it seems that this museum has had many chances to realign its priorities but internal politics seem to win over, and sadly again i think this will happen again, never mind the use it or lose it theory, how about the manage it or damage it theory??

Regards

Dan

[carlt]

Some pics towards the end HERE.

Nice photos but where are the restored boats?

 

This is how a national collection should be kept...and not a touch screen anywhere on site:

National Tramway Museum

[Nightwatch]

Thanks for the photos carl.

 

There's some bobby dazzlers amongst them.

 

Thought the horse was well behaved.

 

Martyn

[carlt]

Thanks for the photos carl.

 

There's some bobby dazzlers amongst them.

 

Thought the horse was well behaved.

 

Martyn

 

The tea room wasn't very impressive but you can always go to Ellesmere Port, if you want to look at tea rooms.

[Mick_B]

Nice photos but where are the restored boats?

 

This is how a national collection should be kept...and not a touch screen anywhere on site:

National Tramway Museum

Didn't get many decent photo's of boats on the day as they were all pretty much squashed up together as there was a gathering of RN (I think)engined boats there when I was there and they fairly well filed the place.

[carlt]

Didn't get many decent photo's of boats on the day as they were all pretty much squashed up together

Squashed up together, rotting, rusting and neglected.

 

Nice tearoom and gift shop, though...