Fuel Declaration - deisel split????

[alan_fincher]

BTW, it'll be interesting to see what happens if the breasted-up gravel boats meet Peter Hawker's breasted up diesel boats on the Tring Summit - someone's going to have to single out.

I doubt the gravel boats will attempt the summit breasted.

 

They'll certainly not get past the latest monster barge / widebeam / broadbeam /simplytoobigbeam fiascos at Bulbourne that way.

 

"No mooring of wide-beam boats on-line North of Berkhamsted ?" HA!

 

Does Peter do the summit breasted, then ?

[Tim]

I would argue it's almost impossible to work out an accurate split for an individual boat. Ok, it's straightforward enough to determine that when your moored up and running engine for charge and heating, but when cruising, how do you determine with any accuracy what amount of diesel is apportioned to prop / charge / heating? And if you're waiting for a lock are you cruising or reverting to charging / heating? I would argue you're still cruising, but accept that others will see it differently. At the end of the day, I too don't think anyone will ever be investigated, it's too small a sum to make it worth HMRC's while to bother with, however I'm going to stick to 60/40 and at least it's given us all a new subject to discuss!

[cotswoldsman]

I would argue it's almost impossible to work out an accurate split for an individual boat. Ok, it's straightforward enough to determine that when your moored up and running engine for charge and heating, but when cruising, how do you determine with any accuracy what amount of diesel is apportioned to prop / charge / heating? And if you're waiting for a lock are you cruising or reverting to charging / heating? I would argue you're still cruising, but accept that others will see it differently. At the end of the day, I too don't think anyone will ever be investigated, it's too small a sum to make it worth HMRC's while to bother with, however I'm going to stick to 60/40 and at least it's given us all a new subject to discuss!

 

Because I think cruising and charging batteries at the same time is a grey area I declare the 10/90 or 20/80 if I was to declare the firs 2/3 hours when I cruise as non propulsion I guess I would declare 5/95 and 15/85 the difference in cost over a year would be about £50 not worth that hassle.

[NB Alnwick]

Bearing in mind that HMRC have invited us all to estimate the likely percentage that we believe we may use, respectively, for propulsion and domestic heating or electricity generation, and declare accordingly, then what each one of us claims must be based on our own judgement, experience and circumstances. As I understand the guidelines, HMRC are saying that an average boat used for leisure purposes is likely to be using 60% of its fuel for propulsion and the remainder for generating electricity, heating or cooking but this is a very broad brush and we have been afforded the option of declaring any other percentage where 60% is not appropriate.

 

As long as individual boaters make sensible estimates I am sure that they have nothing to worry about. HMRC have better things to do than bother with inland waterway boaters making honest declarations on this basis.

[MrCJ]

Ok i being thick here and trying to get my head round this 60%/40% or 10%/90% and so on am i right that the first fig is moving which you pay a higher tax on and the last fig for heating and charging lower tax?

 

is it always worked out this way round or do other do it the other way with first fig heating second moving.

 

So if I right on that and I have a boat that is perm moored and only moved to fuel up and the rest of the time fuel is just used for heating, And my tank holds 100ltrs and i use 1ltr to travel to and back to fuel the split i would get would be 1%/99%. am I correct or have I got this totally wrong.

 

 

sorry if i being thick here.

[Naughty Cal]

Ok i being thick here and trying to get my head round this 60%/40% or 10%/90% and so on am i right that the first fig is moving which you pay a higher tax on and the last fig for heating and charging lower tax?

 

is it always worked out this way round or do other do it the other way with first fig heating second moving.

 

So if I right on that and I have a boat that is perm moored and only moved to fuel up and the rest of the time fuel is just used for heating, And my tank holds 100ltrs and i use 1ltr to travel to and back to fuel the split i would get would be 1%/99%. am I correct or have I got this totally wrong.

 

 

sorry if i being thick here.

 

Sounds about right.

[NB Alnwick]

Ok i being thick here and trying to get my head round this 60%/40% or 10%/90% and so on am i right that the first fig is moving which you pay a higher tax on and the last fig for heating and charging lower tax?

 

is it always worked out this way round or do other do it the other way with first fig heating second moving.

 

So if I right on that and I have a boat that is perm moored and only moved to fuel up and the rest of the time fuel is just used for heating, And my tank holds 100ltrs and i use 1ltr to travel to and back to fuel the split i would get would be 1%/99%. am I correct or have I got this totally wrong.

 

sorry if i being thick here.

 

 

This is the right sort of calculation but any declaration is based on an estimate of anticipated use rather than what has been used - so if you don't expect to move, you can legitimately declare the none of your fuel will be used for propulsion therefore 0% is at the higher rate of duty/tax.

[nb Innisfree]

This is the right sort of calculation but any declaration is based on an estimate of anticipated use rather than what has been used - so if you don't expect to move, you can legitimately declare the none of your fuel will be used for propulsion therefore 0% is at the higher rate of duty/tax.

 

Taking this literally one could genuinely anticipate 0% propulsion and end up doing a totally unexpected long cruise, the same thing could occur on the next fill up and so on, it would be within HMRCs guidelines

[Daio]

Taking this literally one could genuinely anticipate 0% propulsion and end up doing a totally unexpected long cruise, the same thing could occur on the next fill up and so on, it would be within HMRCs guidelines

 

Presumably because you've just heard the Excise are after you!

[nb Innisfree]

No it can't.

 

If you move your boat, then it's "propulsion", whatever the reason you are moving your boat.

 

If I had to guess, (and one or two resellers have made the same point to me), if HMRC wish to pursue a few test cases for maximum publicity, they are most likely to go after people who regularly motor into a marina, fill up, then make a "100% other" declaration.

 

OK, if it's going into a single tank dedicated for heating, but if you have a shared tank with propulsion, how can you be making the trip to the marina (or wherever) without some of the use of the fuel in your single tank being "propulsion".

 

We don't live-aboard, but I remain unconvinced I could establish a case that more than 40% of our use was ever non-propulsion, so, rightly or wrongly, in the absence of anything else we declare 60% propulsion / 40% other. The more I hear though, the bigger mugs I'm wondering if we are!

 

I don't think so, we genuinely declare between 10% and 30% propulsion but we are liveaboard ccers, when you cruise I guess you do so for much longer than us so your 60/40 sounds reasonably accurate to me. If you are making an honest assessment of your usage then stick to it, never mind what others may or may not be getting away with.

Edited July 7, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[MrCJ]

Sounds about right.

 

 

This is the right sort of calculation but any declaration is based on an estimate of anticipated use rather than what has been used - so if you don't expect to move, you can legitimately declare the none of your fuel will be used for propulsion therefore 0% is at the higher rate of duty/tax.

 

so I got that right then heres another one for you.

 

If it takes 3 hours of my engine running above tick over to charge my battery's full and heat my water to full. could you motor along the canal for the 3 hours so you battery's are fully charged and still claim 0%/100% for heating and elecs

[nb Innisfree]

so I got that right then heres another one for you.

 

If it takes 3 hours of my engine running above tick over to charge my battery's full and heat my water to full. could you motor along the canal for the 3 hours so you battery's are fully charged and still claim 0%/100% for heating and elecs

 

No because if you cruise as well you will use extra fuel for that propulsion.

[mayalld]

so I got that right then heres another one for you.

 

If it takes 3 hours of my engine running above tick over to charge my battery's full and heat my water to full. could you motor along the canal for the 3 hours so you battery's are fully charged and still claim 0%/100% for heating and elecs

 

No.

 

We work our consumption on the following basis;

 

Normal cruising - 1 litre per hour propulsion

Fast idle whilst moored to charge batteries - 1 litre per hour non-prop

First 4 hours of each day cruising - 1 litre per hour propulsion plus 0.5 litres per hour non-prop

[nb Innisfree]

No.

 

We work our consumption on the following basis;

 

Normal cruising - 1 litre per hour propulsion

Fast idle whilst moored to charge batteries - 1 litre per hour non-prop

First 4 hours of each day cruising - 1 litre per hour propulsion plus 0.5 litres per hour non-prop

 

When we put our prop in gear engine revs drop the same amount from 1400 as when we excite the domestic alternator which equates to about 5-6 bhp (100 amp @24v) the engine is on approx 1600 rpm for the first half hour but tends to spend most of it's 2 hours on tickover (1100rpm) when moored and charging, so I would estimate we use on average about 0.8 to 0.9 lts per hour for charging. The one constant is 1 lph for cruising which makes calculation simple using our g/box hour counter - g/box hrs / litres x 100%

Edited July 7, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Tim]

That's where I disagree, if you run the engine while moored for heating water, then fine. But while cruising the heating of the water doesn't use additional fuel, 100% of the fuel is being used for propulsion, so I can't see how claiming relief for this is justified. Fair enough for charging batteries as the loads of the various alternators will cause additional fuel to be used.

[Junemc153]

Just a quick point. Borrowed my sister and brother in law's boat for a week recently and filled it up with diesel for her. She said to use 20/80 split and to fill in the details on the declaration form at the filling point.

 

Person who filled it up didn't even want the boat licence no. only name as she said nobody has ever checked them and they just get filed for a period of time and then chucked!

[bottle]

Just a quick point. Borrowed my sister and brother in law's boat for a week recently and filled it up with diesel for her. She said to use 20/80 split and to fill in the details on the declaration form at the filling point.

 

Person who filled it up didn't even want the boat licence no. only name as she said nobody has ever checked them and they just get filed for a period of time and then chucked!

 

Strange is it not how different 'stories' arise, we filled up yesterday (large hire company subsidiary) and they said all forms go to head office where they are checked by HMRC.

[Athy]

Sounds like a rewarding and absorbing job for some poor Inland revenue pen-pusher. "What's the worst job you ever had...?" springs to mind.

[WotEver]

Sounds like a rewarding and absorbing job for some poor Inland revenue pen-pusher. "What's the worst job you ever had...?" springs to mind.

HMRC are scrabbling around for every penny right now. I got a phone call last month to tell me what I'd underpaid tax by £56 three years ago due to an oversight of theirs. I offered to pay it by debit card (how can you argue with them?) and they said they were happy to take the payment by any form, even a credit card.

 

I said to the lady on the phone "You guys really are desperate if you're chasing up £56". She replied "We're even following up £10 debts".

 

Tony

[Machpoint005]

HMRC are scrabbling around for every penny right now.

I'm glad to hear it! HMRC doesn't ask for money that isn't legitimately theirs. Their job isn't to make the laws, it's to collect the dosh on all our behalfs.

[Naughty Cal]

HMRC are scrabbling around for every penny right now. I got a phone call last month to tell me what I'd underpaid tax by £56 three years ago due to an oversight of theirs. I offered to pay it by debit card (how can you argue with them?) and they said they were happy to take the payment by any form, even a credit card.

 

I said to the lady on the phone "You guys really are desperate if you're chasing up £56". She replied "We're even following up £10 debts".

 

Tony

 

If that is the case it will be interesting to see what they make of some of these 10/90 and 20/80 diesel splits being claimed.

[cotswoldsman]

If that is the case it will be interesting to see what they make of some of these 10/90 and 20/80 diesel splits being claimed.

 

Nothing if they are correct. I would welcome them to come and check my split not sure how they are going to do that unless they visit every diesel retailer I have used.

[bottle]

At certain times I can quite legally claim 0/100%

 

I also declare different splits at all other times, the only time it is 60/40 is if I am desperate and need to fill up at a marina that will not do anything else.

 

I am also a bona fide continuous cruiser.

 

ps. before 'you' jump in I have checked with HMRC.

[nb Innisfree]

At certain times I can quite legally claim 0/100%

 

I also declare different splits at all other times, the only time it is 60/40 is if I am desperate and need to fill up at a marina that will not do anything else.

 

I am also a bona fide continuous cruiser.

 

ps. before 'you' jump in I have checked with HMRC.

 

Was you told verbally? if so can they be relied on to tell you the truth? Not saying they would deliberately lie but each spokesperson you speak to may have different interpretations of the legal position. Bottom line is what is in black and white.

[bottle]

In Black and white.

 

My position is for my boat it will not necessarily apply to anyone else, think separate tanks.