Tiller

[Bunny]

Have a problem, we lost our steering coming up the Thames on yellow boards (not good) breasted up with a fellow traveller and made it to Sandford Lock. Whilst under way the tiller ends up facing a totally different direction to the rudder, lots of play ect, various remedies have been tried. Cut a very long story short, it appears that the bolt holding the swan neck to the sindle has worn and a couple of the threads are now not there now.

 

My question is this bolt a standard size and something I can find at good candlers, we are now on The Coventry Canal heading north. Many thanks Bunny

[springy]

First (if you havent already done so) get a piece of rope through the hole I hope you have

in the top of the rudder blade & tie loosely to your stern dollies - that way if it comes out

of the cup at least you wont loose it completely.

To answer your question, Yes it will be a "standard size" but it wil probably depend on the builders

inclination - I would guess at least M8, probably M10 or M12 assuming it was built in the last 15-20

years. You can use thin steel e.g. opened out food can cut with scissors to "shim" the top & take the play

out.

 

edited to add - the spanner size needed to fit the bolt head will (usually) indicate the bolt diameter -

assuming it is metric then M8 needs a 13mm spanner, M10 possibly 16mm or usually 17mm, M12

possibly 18mm usually 19mm.

You will also need to know the length, best done by taking it out and measuring !

 

Also the scissors wont cut hair properly afterwards !

 

springy

Edited April 6, 2010 by springy

[ditchcrawler]

First (if you havent already done so) get a piece of rope through the hole I hope you have

in the top of the rudder blade & tie loosely to your stern dollies - that way if it comes out

of the cup at least you wont loose it completely.

To answer your question, Yes it will be a "standard size" but it wil probably depend on the builders

inclination - I would guess at least M8, probably M10 or M12 assuming it was built in the last 15-20

years. You can use thin steel e.g. opened out food can cut with scissors to "shim" the top & take the play

out.

 

edited to add - the spanner size needed to fit the bolt head will (usually) indicate the bolt diameter -

assuming it is metric then M8 needs a 13mm spanner, M10 possibly 16mm or usually 17mm, M12

possibly 18mm usually 19mm.

You will also need to know the length, best done by taking it out and measuring !

 

Also the scissors wont cut hair properly afterwards !

 

springy

Some swan necks just pull down on a taper,ours does and some have a keyway in them. I think Liverpool do something completely different. Some actually clamp on to the top of the rudder stock. If its lose tie the rope as above and take it off and have a look.

[sultan]

I have a similar problem. The tiller has a lot of dead movement in the straight ahead position and when changing from side to side. A bit like steering a well worn series 2 Landrover down a narrow street with parked cars on both sides. Can be scary and I fear total loss of steerage. The swan-neck is Not the type that is fastened to the rudder pin by a big nut above the top bearing. It simply disappears into the bearing the housing of which is retained by 4 studs. Boat is 15 years old. Builder is reputed to be Heritage but I have no proof.

Can anyone tell me what lurks below the bearing? If I unbolt it , will it slide it up the swan-neck enough to fettle whatever fixes the swan-neck to the rudder? (roping the rudder first of course)

Thanks in anticipation of practical advice

Sultan

[Bunny]

Thanks for the replies. Have now got a washer in place and steering now normal, but still looking for new bolt have tried the hardware shop in Atherstone and a couple of chandlers, no joy yet . Thought we would try Steve Hudson. Our boat 5 yrs old Reeves shell Reading Marine fit out. Four studs on the stern holding rudder in place and another bearing somewhere in that direction. doing somnething. Cheers Bunny

[GSer]

Thanks for the replies. Have now got a washer in place and steering now normal, but still looking for new bolt have tried the hardware shop in Atherstone and a couple of chandlers, no joy yet . Thought we would try Steve Hudson. Our boat 5 yrs old Reeves shell Reading Marine fit out. Four studs on the stern holding rudder in place and another bearing somewhere in that direction. doing somnething. Cheers Bunny

 

 

Oooo I bet that was exciting! No steering!

 

If you need anything dropping off to you from this way I can take an evening out to deliver the neccessary parts if you so wish.

 

Paul

[WotEver]

Why don't you give Graham Reeves a call? I'm sure he'd be happy to post you a new bolt or tell you where you can pick one up (and what size it is).

 

Tony

[RLWP]

Thanks for the replies. Have now got a washer in place and steering now normal, but still looking for new bolt have tried the hardware shop in Atherstone and a couple of chandlers, no joy yet . Thought we would try Steve Hudson. Our boat 5 yrs old Reeves shell Reading Marine fit out. Four studs on the stern holding rudder in place and another bearing somewhere in that direction. doing somnething. Cheers Bunny

 

Could you post a picture of what you have? Perhaps we could help you identify a suitable bolt that way.

 

Richard

[nb Innisfree]

Can't see why builders use tapers, we have the 'el cheapo' set up - a collar with a couple of bolts screwed through to the stock, absolutely trouble free and easy to remove.

[casper ghost]

Can't see why builders use tapers, we have the 'el cheapo' set up - a collar with a couple of bolts screwed through to the stock, absolutely trouble free and easy to remove.

 

Think you have the same as me. Sleeve welded on bottom of swan's neck which neatly fits over rudder stock. Bolts tighten to hold in place. I like this method as we made it ourselves and it's easy to solve any problems.

[nb Innisfree]

Think you have the same as me. Sleeve welded on bottom of swan's neck which neatly fits over rudder stock. Bolts tighten to hold in place. I like this method as we made it ourselves and it's easy to solve any problems.

 

Ideally I would like to swap the bolts for grubcrews of the allen key type, pointed at the end to dig in to the stock. A lot neater.

[Bunny]

Didn't think of giving Graham Reeves a ring, good idea. Yes, Paul it was exciting,.... not, steering one way and hitting the bank on the opp side , very interesting, daughter in lifejacket rabbit in basket and Stephen looking pale............ very glad we had Hoops 100 with us. Not a good trip so far, 4 days on red boards at Wallingford and that was after we found the body of a lady who had jumped into the river at Goring., 35 emergency service persons, helicopter, fire enigine, ambulance,

police cars, but no boat, great .......... Thank you for the offer of a delivery,much appreciated, seeing Emma on Saturday in Reading so will try to get a bolt delivered to her. Again thanks Bunny

[Timleech]

I have a similar problem. The tiller has a lot of dead movement in the straight ahead position and when changing from side to side. A bit like steering a well worn series 2 Landrover down a narrow street with parked cars on both sides. Can be scary and I fear total loss of steerage. The swan-neck is Not the type that is fastened to the rudder pin by a big nut above the top bearing. It simply disappears into the bearing the housing of which is retained by 4 studs. Boat is 15 years old. Builder is reputed to be Heritage but I have no proof.

Can anyone tell me what lurks below the bearing? If I unbolt it , will it slide it up the swan-neck enough to fettle whatever fixes the swan-neck to the rudder? (roping the rudder first of course)

Thanks in anticipation of practical advice

Sultan

 

It sounds as though you have the arrangement used by Liverpool Boats, Springers (some anyway) and various other builders.

The rudder blade is built around a piece of steel tube, and the rudder post passes down this tube. The two are held together with bolts, usually two bolted right through tube and post and a third 'pinch bolt' which screws through a welded-on nut.

The pinch bolt works loose, and then the through bolts wear, so the rudder gets steadily looser. It would have to be pretty bad to fail completely, though.

Reach down through the weedhatch to see whether you can feel these bolts, and try to tighten the pinch bolt as a temporary measure (it might have a locknut). Sort it out propelry with new, maybe oversize, bolts next time the boat is out of the water.

 

Tim

[Guest]

It sounds as though you have the arrangement used by Liverpool Boats, Springers (some anyway) and various other builders.

The rudder blade is built around a piece of steel tube, and the rudder post passes down this tube. The two are held together with bolts, usually two bolted right through tube and post and a third 'pinch bolt' which screws through a welded-on nut.

The pinch bolt works loose, and then the through bolts wear, so the rudder gets steadily looser. It would have to be pretty bad to fail completely, though.

Reach down through the weedhatch to see whether you can feel these bolts, and try to tighten the pinch bolt as a temporary measure (it might have a locknut). Sort it out propelry with new, maybe oversize, bolts next time the boat is out of the water.

 

Tim

Mine is as you describe. Sometimes the pinch bolt backs off and then there is loads of play. To lose steering completely suggests that the through bolts may be sheared (if indeed it is this arrangement)? I have heard of people welding the tube to the shaft, but of course it is then a drydock and grinder job if you need to remove the rudder.

[Bunny]

Checked bolt not sheared, worn and bit rusted, the washer we fitted has enabled us to move on without any problems, but want to get this sorted because we are booked for The Ribble in June. Will check everything as advised and then pop into somewhere and get it looked at . Bunny.

[ditchcrawler]

Why don't you give Graham Reeves a call? I'm sure he'd be happy to post you a new bolt or tell you where you can pick one up (and what size it is).

 

Tony

I bought a new bolt for ours from a fixings supply company in Southam, I think it was 12 mm. I bought two and the spare is on the boat.

[blackrose]

Mine is as you describe. Sometimes the pinch bolt backs off and then there is loads of play. To lose steering completely suggests that the through bolts may be sheared (if indeed it is this arrangement)? I have heard of people welding the tube to the shaft, but of course it is then a drydock and grinder job if you need to remove the rudder.

 

I welded the rudder to the stock on my LB. I'd rather have to drydock it to fix a bent rudder than lose steering (and possibly the boat) on the Thames.

 

I think rudders are welded to the stocks of most other canal boats and my feeling was that it would be bloody difficult to get a LB rudder off the stock and back on again while in the water anyway.

 

If I ever need to get mine off I can always drop my boat on a tide and get an angle grinder on the welds.

Edited April 7, 2010 by blackrose

[Guest]

I welded the rudder to the stock on my LB. I'd rather have to drydock it to fix a bent rudder than lose steering (and possibly the boat) on the Thames.

 

I think rudders are welded to the stocks of most other canal boats and my feeling was that it would be bloody difficult to get a LB rudder off the stock and back on again while in the water anyway.

 

If I ever need to get mine off I can always drop my boat on a tide and get an angle grinder on the welds.

Fair comment. I wasn't meaning to belittle the idea, but just pointing out that it was a possibility, and the downside. I doubt that our rudder would be easy to remove whilst afloat either. I believe a lot of L'pool shell owners do thiswelding trick, and I have considered it myself.