Faulty tap or regulator ?

[rob@501]

Hello All.

Long time forum reader here and grateful for all the information over the years.

 

I've spent a couple of days last week preparing the boat for its BS check next week. This has involved installing a new on demand water pump and then repairing the subsequent leaky pipework. Satisfied that all was working OK, I turned my attention to the Paloma water heater. All seemed OK, plenty of on demand hot water.

I only mention the above because I don't believe in coincidences.

Satisfied I had achieved what I had set out to do for the day, I set about packing up my tools and heading off home.

 

I have the fairly standard gas supply configuration, Two bottles connected by hoses(tails) to a 3 way brass valve/tap (either bottle open or supply closed). Then gas pipe to regulator and then on into the boat.

 

On leaving for the day I turned the 3 way brass tap to the off position, and pop off it shoots. I'm not talking bang take your eye out pressure but just enough to shoot it out of the valve.

Ive repositioned it several times and each time it has popped off within 5 seconds of turning the gas on at the bottle.

 

Now my question is a)Is this tap just old and worn or b)Is the regulator knacked or c) something else.?

 

I can buy a new regulator and 3 way tap set for £50 from the chandlers.

Boats 30 years old BTW, tap and regulator could easily be the same age.

 

Any ideas or thoughts on the matter greatly appreciated.

 

Rob

[Smelly]

Hello All.

Long time forum reader here and grateful for all the information over the years.

 

I've spent a couple of days last week preparing the boat for its BS check next week. This has involved installing a new on demand water pump and then repairing the subsequent leaky pipework. Satisfied that all was working OK, I turned my attention to the Paloma water heater. All seemed OK, plenty of on demand hot water.

I only mention the above because I don't believe in coincidences.

Satisfied I had achieved what I had set out to do for the day, I set about packing up my tools and heading off home.

 

I have the fairly standard gas supply configuration, Two bottles connected by hoses(tails) to a 3 way brass valve/tap (either bottle open or supply closed). Then gas pipe to regulator and then on into the boat.

 

On leaving for the day I turned the 3 way brass tap to the off position, and pop off it shoots. I'm not talking bang take your eye out pressure but just enough to shoot it out of the valve.

Ive repositioned it several times and each time it has popped off within 5 seconds of turning the gas on at the bottle.

 

Now my question is a)Is this tap just old and worn or b)Is the regulator knacked or c) something else.?

 

I can buy a new regulator and 3 way tap set for £50 from the chandlers.

Boats 30 years old BTW, tap and regulator could easily be the same age.

 

Any ideas or thoughts on the matter greatly appreciated.

 

Rob

 

Sounds like a dodgy regulator to me, however where there's any question about one component in that setup probably best to replace the lot just in case. I wouldn't be trusting that tap now!

[Keeping Up]

Sounds like a dodgy regulator to me, however where there's any question about one component in that setup probably best to replace the lot just in case. I wouldn't be trusting that tap now!

If the tap is on the high-pressure side of the regulator, it's hard to see how a faulty regulator could cause this effect. However regulators are reckoned to have a 10 year life, and the tap is now clearly suspect, so I''d also opt for replacing the lot.

[Phil Ambrose]

If the tap is on the high-pressure side of the regulator, it's hard to see how a faulty regulator could cause this effect. However regulators are reckoned to have a 10 year life, and the tap is now clearly suspect, so I''d also opt for replacing the lot.

 

 

Strangely enough I have just returned from my local yard with a new clip on reg and prior to fitting glanced at the bumph that was in the box and it said " Change Within 10 Years Of Manufacture", oh and cost £7-50

 

Phil

[David Schweizer]

If the tap is on the high-pressure side of the regulator, it's hard to see how a faulty regulator could cause this effect. However regulators are reckoned to have a 10 year life, and the tap is now clearly suspect, so I''d also opt for replacing the lot.

Oh yes Regulators are so unreliable aren't they? I'm still on my original one after only 28 years

Edited February 21, 2010 by David Schweizer

[koukouvagia]

Oh yes Regulators are so unreliable aren't they? I'm still on my original one after only 28 years

 

 

I was speaking to a boat surveyor the other day who said that on a recent gas regulator he tested the water shot straight out the top of the manometer. So, yes, they do go wrong. I'd definitely replace the lot.

[David Schweizer]

I was speaking to a boat surveyor the other day who said that on a recent gas regulator he tested the water shot straight out the top of the manometer. So, yes, they do go wrong. I'd definitely replace the lot.

I am sure you are right, but you need to read this thread to understand the reason for my comment, and the smiley:- http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28465 (post 13)

Edited February 21, 2010 by David Schweizer

[Keeping Up]

Oh yes Regulators are so unreliable aren't they? I'm still on my original one after only 28 years

[Denis R]

My original regulator lasted about 3 years before failing - and not a nice failure mode - high pressure straight through into the gas circuit which caused quite a sheet of flame from the hob.

And I've replaced both pigtails too in that time as the internal check valves failed shut in both.

Having a very low front deck and gas locker, I've only got room for two 3.9Kg bottles and they seem to give off a lot of 'liquid' which I'm sure gets into the regulator - the regulator isn't much higher than the bottles because of the lack of height.

[rob@501]

Thanks to all those who took the time to reply

Taking your advice, I'll be replacing both the regulator and the tap.

These are selling on Ebay, as a set for around £28 including new tails.

In fairness to the chandlers at the yard, I'm sure what they are selling at £50 are automatic changeover. I will see what price they can come up with for manual changeover.

 

Rob

[DHutch]

If the tap is on the high-pressure side of the regulator, it's hard to see how a faulty regulator could cause this effect.

Ditto.

- Time to replace it if i where you. There not overly dear, and the hp gas side (and gas really) is not to be skimpt on in my mind.

 

 

Oh yes Regulators are so unreliable aren't they? I'm still on my original one after only 28 years

That said, 16 years of light use in, ours failed the BSS.

- It was actually under pressure, by about 30%, a risk as the flames may then go out and dispense gas into the boat.

- Given we have non-ffd hobs on our cooker,a nd the flame going out (low/empty bottle) is the only time ive ever had any amount of gas in the boat, for £15 i was all over a new regulator.

[alan_fincher]

I agree with Keeping Up.

 

If the cylinders feed the tap at high pressure, and the regulator comes after that, then it's hard to see how any fault in the regulator could cause the tap to fail.

 

But many sources say a regulator should not be used for more than 10 years, and they are (by boat terms) dead cheap. (£5 to £10, maybe).

 

The tap definitely sounds like bad news, so I'd also vote for changing the lot.

 

BES is a good source of LPG parts at usually reasonable prices.

[David Schweizer]

Forgive me for asking a dumb question, but where does this view that things will obnly last for a certain period of time, when they are not being subjected to any usage or wear? If the gas cylinders are turned off for more than 90% of the time, how can the regulator wear out over the same period as one which is in constant use all the year round? It's a bit like saying that the tyres on your car will wear out in a year, irrespective of mileage.

[alan_fincher]

Forgive me for asking a dumb question, but where does this view that things will obnly last for a certain period of time, when they are not being subjected to any usage or wear? If the gas cylinders are turned off for more than 90% of the time, how can the regulator wear out over the same period as one which is in constant use all the year round? It's a bit like saying that the tyres on your car will wear out in a year, irrespective of mileage.

The tyres thing is an interesting one to pick as a comparison, David.

 

Whilst nobody would suggest that tyres weear out as quickly if you do 2,000 miles a year rather than 20,000 miles, suggesting they will last 10 times as wrong would probably also be wrong. I have had more than one low-use FWD car where the "rears" have needed replacing long before the tread is worn down, simply because the "rubber" has got knackered with age. I don't know what causes it, possibly exposure to strong sunlight ?

 

Another example might be a car cam belt, where our old Fiesta said replace at 100,000 miles or 10 years, whichever is sooner. At 10 years the car was only in the 30,000 to 40,000 mile range, and I felt aggrieved at having to splash out £250 or more to replace a belt at a third of the mileage one might have done with a high mileage car. At about 12 years my nerve failed me, and I had it done, as the consequences of a failure would have been mega expensive.

 

A gas regulator, however, can cost as little as a fiver, and shouldn't be more than a tenner. Having seen what happens when they fail, and appliances that should only get about 15" WG get the full cylinder pressure, I'm not prepared to risk the advice of people like Calor Marine who say it is prudent to change it.

 

I would suggest that whilst not actually regulating, unless you "de-gas" your system each time you leave your boat, if it's doing it's job, it sits there with the valve separating high and low pressure gas, and the diaphragm continually exposed to gas, and any other impurities that may have got in there.

 

Possibly it's more like trying to say that a car that is continually left out in all weathers will never rust or deteriorate in any way, even if never driven anywhere.

 

Are you advising the OP that it is fine to keep using a (potentially) 30 year old regulator until the point sheet flame starts coming out of a hob ? Personally I'd invest the £5 to £10, as using a new one must severely reduce that possibility, even if it doesn't eliminate it.

[David Schweizer]

The tyres thing is an interesting one to pick as a comparison, David.

 

Whilst nobody would suggest that tyres weear out as quickly if you do 2,000 miles a year rather than 20,000 miles, suggesting they will last 10 times as wrong would probably also be wrong. I have had more than one low-use FWD car where the "rears" have needed replacing long before the tread is worn down, simply because the "rubber" has got knackered with age. I don't know what causes it, possibly exposure to strong sunlight ?

 

Another example might be a car cam belt, where our old Fiesta said replace at 100,000 miles or 10 years, whichever is sooner. At 10 years the car was only in the 30,000 to 40,000 mile range, and I felt aggrieved at having to splash out £250 or more to replace a belt at a third of the mileage one might have done with a high mileage car. At about 12 years my nerve failed me, and I had it done, as the consequences of a failure would have been mega expensive.

 

A gas regulator, however, can cost as little as a fiver, and shouldn't be more than a tenner. Having seen what happens when they fail, and appliances that should only get about 15" WG get the full cylinder pressure, I'm not prepared to risk the advice of people like Calor Marine who say it is prudent to change it.

 

I would suggest that whilst not actually regulating, unless you "de-gas" your system each time you leave your boat, if it's doing it's job, it sits there with the valve separating high and low pressure gas, and the diaphragm continually exposed to gas, and any other impurities that may have got in there.

 

Possibly it's more like trying to say that a car that is continually left out in all weathers will never rust or deteriorate in any way, even if never driven anywhere.

Are you advising the OP that it is fine to keep using a (potentially) 30 year old regulator until the point sheet flame starts coming out of a hob ? Personally I'd invest the £5 to £10, as using a new one must severely reduce that possibility, even if it doesn't eliminate it.

I am not advising anything, just questioning the percieved wisdom, propogated by commercial concerns who have a vested interest in selling me new components.

 

As for cost, I have a Compact 80 Auto changeover regulator valve, cost £136.99 at Midland Chandlers. Just a tad more than your asured £5 or £10.

[mayalld]

Forgive me for asking a dumb question, but where does this view that things will obnly last for a certain period of time, when they are not being subjected to any usage or wear? If the gas cylinders are turned off for more than 90% of the time, how can the regulator wear out over the same period as one which is in constant use all the year round? It's a bit like saying that the tyres on your car will wear out in a year, irrespective of mileage.

 

Well, with a regulator, even if unused, corrosion and perishing of the diaphragm need to be considered.

[alan_fincher]

As for cost, I have a Compact 80 Auto changeover regulator valve, cost £136.99 at Midland Chandlers. Just a tad more than your asured £5 or £10.

Sorry, but the OP's changeover valve is actually described as failed in a fairly dramatic way.....

 

On leaving for the day I turned the 3 way brass tap to the off position, and pop off it shoots. I'm not talking bang take your eye out pressure but just enough to shoot it out of the valve.

Ive repositioned it several times and each time it has popped off within 5 seconds of turning the gas on at the bottle.

 

The case for replacing that looks quite strong to me.

 

I was only talking about the regulator, (as I think was fairly obvious to most people).

 

However, a complete replacement 2-way automatic set-up, including cut-off valve, regulator & pigtails with excess flow and non-return valves can be had from BES for under £33, so I'm struggling to understand what one would get by paying Midland Chandlers over 4 times that amount, unless it is say one designed with more than 2 pigtails.

 

In the OPs case I'd be spending the £33, (or less if a Google or e-Bay yields a better deal).

[David Schweizer]

Sorry, but the OP's changeover valve is actually described as failed in a fairly dramatic way.....

 

 

 

The case for replacing that looks quite strong to me.

 

I was only talking about the regulator, (as I think was fairly obvious to most people).

 

However, a complete replacement 2-way automatic set-up, including cut-off valve, regulator & pigtails with excess flow and non-return valves can be had from BES for under £33, so I'm struggling to understand what one would get by paying Midland Chandlers over 4 times that amount, unless it is say one designed with more than 2 pigtails.

 

In the OPs case I'd be spending the £33, (or less if a Google or e-Bay yields a better deal).

Perhaps it is for a unit that will last more than ten years!

 

P.S. Who are BES?

Edited February 22, 2010 by David Schweizer

[alan_fincher]

Perhaps it is for a unit that will last more than ten years!

Possibly, but 4 from BES that lasted me 40 years would still be cheaper than one from MC. (Not that I'd ever choose to have an automatic change over, personally).

 

P.S. Who are BES?

 

Link to "BES Limited, Plumbing and Gas Supplies"

 

I have tended to get nearly all gas and plumbing bits here - perhaps not the cheapest, but good range, and rapid service.

 

I seem to remember that they are not the cheapest for Hep2O fittings though, (although some claim to have done quantity discount deals, I think, and still a lot cheaper than chandlers if you pay list price).

[Tony Brooks]

Hello All.

Long time forum reader here and grateful for all the information over the years.

 

I've spent a couple of days last week preparing the boat for its BS check next week. This has involved installing a new on demand water pump and then repairing the subsequent leaky pipework. Satisfied that all was working OK, I turned my attention to the Paloma water heater. All seemed OK, plenty of on demand hot water.

I only mention the above because I don't believe in coincidences.

Satisfied I had achieved what I had set out to do for the day, I set about packing up my tools and heading off home.

 

I have the fairly standard gas supply configuration, Two bottles connected by hoses(tails) to a 3 way brass valve/tap (either bottle open or supply closed). Then gas pipe to regulator and then on into the boat.

 

On leaving for the day I turned the 3 way brass tap to the off position, and pop off it shoots. I'm not talking bang take your eye out pressure but just enough to shoot it out of the valve.

Ive repositioned it several times and each time it has popped off within 5 seconds of turning the gas on at the bottle.

 

Now my question is a)Is this tap just old and worn or b)Is the regulator knacked or c) something else.?

 

I can buy a new regulator and 3 way tap set for £50 from the chandlers.

Boats 30 years old BTW, tap and regulator could easily be the same age.

 

Any ideas or thoughts on the matter greatly appreciated.

 

Rob

 

 

Just a thought and I am not sure I would like such a thing on the HP side of the regulator.

 

Many older gas taps (valves) used a paper "plug" with a hole in it and the tap handle at the wider end as the working parts of the valve. The plug was held in place by a spring , washer and split pin at the smaller end of the plug with the spring bearing against the housing to hold the two taper faces together.

 

If the split pin has fallen out or if galvanic corrosion has de-zinked the small end of the taper so it has broken off I suspect the taper plug would pop out of the housing at odd times. The taper would hold it in place until expansion/contraction/vibrations loosened it.

 

Without a picture I am not sure I am not talking a load of guff.

[David Schweizer]

Possibly, but 4 from BES that lasted me 40 years would still be cheaper than one from MC. (Not that I'd ever choose to have an automatic change over, personally).

 

 

 

Link to "BES Limited, Plumbing and Gas Supplies"

 

I have tended to get nearly all gas and plumbing bits here - perhaps not the cheapest, but good range, and rapid service.

 

I seem to remember that they are not the cheapest for Hep2O fittings though, (although some claim to have done quantity discount deals, I think, and still a lot cheaper than chandlers if you pay list price).

Just checked out the website, and the one you recommend actually costs £45 when VAT and delivery are taken inti account, and the cheapest BES equivalent to the Midlands Chandlers one (with OPSO) actually costs £52 , so not quite 4 for the same price!

 

Ever thought of becoming Chancellor, that require economy with the facts.

[alan_fincher]

Just checked out the website, and the one you recommend actually costs £45 when VAT and delivery are taken inti account, and the cheapest BES equivalent to the Midlands Chandlers one (with OPSO) actually costs £52 , so not quite 4 for the same price!

 

Ever thought of becoming Chancellor, that require economy with the facts.

Sorry, I forgot BES show ex-VAT prices - I accept I got that wrong.

 

When I have asked Midland Chandlers about delivery, they have never quoted me very low numbers, which is why I think I have only ever once ordered from them. With BES, if I were buying a £33 (ex-VAT) item, I'd probably find something else to "put in stores" to bring it up to £40, after which delivery is, I think, free.

 

I can see what OPSO stands for, but exactly what does it do, and why do you need it ? (The BSS documentation does not mention it, so far as I can see, so presumably not a requirement there).

 

To be fair, you neither quoted the spec of the Midland offering, and I don't think we know that OP's (possibly 30 year old) valve has any such sophistication.

 

What I did notice in the BSS guide in passing was

 

Best practice b Regulators have a finite life and it is generally recommended that they are replaced at least at 10-year intervals.

 

It doesn't say.....

 

".......but if you don't use your boat very much, that's probably a marketing ploy by people selling regulators, and we would suggest you save £10 by leaving it considerably longer"

 

Whilst the BSS guide doesn't say "you must change a 10 year old regulator, I suspect many examiners might well object to one they suspected of being three times that age.

 

A similar situation exists with flexible hoses. Nothing in the BSS actually mandate how old they can be, but it does say they must be in good condition. If they are braid wrapped that's almost impossible to tell, so it seems many examiners (rightly or wrongly) insist they are changed based on date.

 

I take the view that if an examiner comes along, and sees you have tried hard to go with recommendations as well as things that are insisted upon, that it will make them more amenable to "negotiation" on points where the book says one thing, but it is actually very hard to achieve in practice, (accessibility of a manual fuel cut off tap might be such an example on some boats - it certainly is on ours...).

[David Schweizer]

BSS QUOTE "Best practice b Regulators have a finite life and it is generally recommended that they are replaced at least at 10-year intervals."

Well of course they will say that, the gas regulations for boats are basicly written by the Bottled gas industry, in fact it is almost impossible to find any Gas regulations in this country which have not been drafted vested interests.