When does an Engine Warranty Start ?

[matchman]

Bought a new boat in Oct 2008.

Just had a major problem with my Isuzu engine.

Found out the guarantee for the engine started when it was originally fitted into boat shell by Liverpool boats in 2007.

The boat was fitted out professionally by another boat company whom I purchased it off.

The engine has less than 100 hours.

I wonder if other boaters have had this problem ie guarantee run out on engine before they purchased a new boat.

In defence of the boat fitter they are doing there best to help me out but I think it came as a bit of a shock to them that the guaranttee ran out with Isuzu before they sold it to me.

Been in touch with HMI but they say any work on engine will have to be paid for.

A salutory lesson for me (and dammed expensive)

No doubt you will let me know your experiances.

[Grace and Favour]

Bought a new boat in Oct 2008.

Just had a major problem with my Isuzu engine.

Found out the guarantee for the engine started when it was originally fitted into boat shell by Liverpool boats in 2007.

The boat was fitted out professionally by another boat company whom I purchased it off.

The engine has less than 100 hours.

I wonder if other boaters have had this problem ie guarantee run out on engine before they purchased a new boat.

In defence of the boat fitter they are doing there best to help me out but I think it came as a bit of a shock to them that the guaranttee ran out with Isuzu before they sold it to me.

Been in touch with HMI but they say any work on engine will have to be paid for.

A salutory lesson for me (and dammed expensive)

No doubt you will let me know your experiances.

 

 

Hmm - - I believe the existing EU legislation states that the minimum guarantee period for goods sold (and used) within the UK is 2 years (not 1 year) irrespective of what the manufacturer/retailer claims

 

Please see article in the Guardian

[tosher]

Bought a new boat in Oct 2008.

Just had a major problem with my Isuzu engine.

Found out the guarantee for the engine started when it was originally fitted into boat shell by Liverpool boats in 2007.

The boat was fitted out professionally by another boat company whom I purchased it off.

The engine has less than 100 hours.

I wonder if other boaters have had this problem ie guarantee run out on engine before they purchased a new boat.

In defence of the boat fitter they are doing there best to help me out but I think it came as a bit of a shock to them that the guaranttee ran out with Isuzu before they sold it to me.

Been in touch with HMI but they say any work on engine will have to be paid for.

A salutory lesson for me (and dammed expensive)

No doubt you will let me know your experiances.

 

Sorry to hear of your problems, for what it's worth my Isuzu operators hand book states the following as the warranty period for pleasure boats in private use:- "The earlier of either - 30 months from the date of despatch from HMI's factory or 24 months or 1500 hrs from engine installation" It might be worth a check on the date of despatch from the factory in 2007. tosher

[nb Innisfree]

I think some warranties start when engine is delivered, some when boat is launched. Ours was the former and failed after 7 months on the water but 2 months outside the 2 yr warranty, all due to me fitting it early in the build

Edited February 16, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Grace and Favour]

Apart from any written or published guarantees - - under the Sale of Goods Act - the Goods (engine) must be fit for the purpose intended . .

 

I believe that 100 hrs running time suggests that it certainly wasn't fit - - you may like to gain the advice from your CAB / tTrading Standards offices

[jelunga]

Apart from any written or published guarantees - - under the Sale of Goods Act - the Goods (engine) must be fit for the purpose intended . .

 

I believe that 100 hrs running time suggests that it certainly wasn't fit - - you may like to gain the advice from your CAB / tTrading Standards offices

 

As an ex Trading Standards worker, I agree.

[gary4lw]

Surely You need to find out what the problem is and why it happened first before running off to CAB could have been plumbed incorrectly or anything for that matter!!!

[Smelly]

Apart from any written or published guarantees - - under the Sale of Goods Act - the Goods (engine) must be fit for the purpose intended . .

 

I believe that 100 hrs running time suggests that it certainly wasn't fit - - you may like to gain the advice from your CAB / tTrading Standards offices

 

 

As an ex Trading Standards worker, I agree.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what they said.

 

There are standard form letters before action available online. Say "County Court" and see whether they jump. Complain in writing, if you don't like their response make sure you've exhausted the complaint process and then...

 

Have at them!

[gbmud]

Hmm - - I believe the existing EU legislation states that the minimum guarantee period for goods sold (and used) within the UK is 2 years (not 1 year) irrespective of what the manufacturer/retailer claims

 

Please see article in the Guardian

 

 

 

It is also worth considering that you have a contract with the guys you bought the boat from, not with Liverpool boats or with Isuzu. If the above is true then the engine would be covered by the boat fitter's warranty?

 

Chris

[alan_fincher]

Sorry,

 

But I agree with the "need to know what the probvlem was, and why it failed" answer !

 

I can imagine things I could have done with an engine with almost no recorded hours, where I would consider it reasonable if the supplier tells me to take a hike.

 

What was the problem, and what is believed to have caused it, please ?

[matchman]

First I know very little about engines so this reply is a bit limited to say the least.

Early days yet as I have only spoken to marine engineers over the phone.

The problem as I see it

Exhaust throwing out oil all over the canal.

If you switch the fuel off the engine keeps going.(very difficult to stop the engine)

I am told the engine may be running on oil out of the sump,

This is bourne out by the oil level in the sump reducing in level.

I appreciate everyones advice and I am investigating all the options offered.

But my main point was if you buy a so called new boat how old are the fittings in it and are the guarantees still current.

How many purchasers of new boats are aware of this.

Sorry if this is repeating my self.

Must say I have gained a great deal of advice from this forum which has been invaluable in my intial days of narrow boating

[mayalld]

First I know very little about engines so this reply is a bit limited to say the least.

Early days yet as I have only spoken to marine engineers over the phone.

The problem as I see it

Exhaust throwing out oil all over the canal.

If you switch the fuel off the engine keeps going.(very difficult to stop the engine)

I am told the engine may be running on oil out of the sump,

This is bourne out by the oil level in the sump reducing in level.

I appreciate everyones advice and I am investigating all the options offered.

But my main point was if you buy a so called new boat how old are the fittings in it and are the guarantees still current.

How many purchasers of new boats are aware of this.

Sorry if this is repeating my self.

Must say I have gained a great deal of advice from this forum which has been invaluable in my intial days of narrow boating

 

Forget about guarantees. They are clouding your mind here.

 

A guarantee can only ever give you rights over and above your statutory rights. It can never take away those rights.

 

Your statutory rights are against the person who sold you the boat, end of story. They supplied you with a "new" boat, and the engine has failed far sooner than you have a reasonable expectation of it failing.

 

Don't concern yourself with the guarantee. The peson who sold you the boat is liable. He may be able to pursue whoever he bought the engine from, but that is NOT your concern. Your contract is with him.

[alan_fincher]

Yes,

 

I agree.

 

Unless the engine can be shown to have suffered some abuse, or something obvious got overlooked, (like having enough coolant and oil in it), it is hard to imagine any reason why it should be running on it's own oil at just 100 engine hours !

 

So normally I think Dave would be right - your contact is with the supplier of the boat, not the builder or mariniser of the engine.

 

Unfortunately though, it seems that your contract was probably with Liverpool Boats. (Can you confirm that please ?).

 

As LB have stopped trading under that name, I'm not sure how you would stand in terms of trying to get satisfaction from them.

 

I rather fear that even though they still trade under a different company name, that getting recompense from "Liverpool Boats" might no longer be straightforward.

 

Anybody know company law on this - I don't think LB ever went into receivership, did it - are it's directors still liable ?

[mayalld]

Yes,

 

I agree.

 

Unless the engine can be shown to have suffered some abuse, or something obvious got overlooked, (like having enough coolant and oil in it), it is hard to imagine any reason why it should be running on it's own oil at just 100 engine hours !

 

So normally I think Dave would be right - your contact is with the supplier of the boat, not the builder or mariniser of the engine.

 

Unfortunately though, it seems that your contract was probably with Liverpool Boats. (Can you confirm that please ?).

 

As LB have stopped trading under that name, I'm not sure how you would stand in terms of trying to get satisfaction from them.

 

I rather fear that even though they still trade under a different company name, that getting recompense from "Liverpool Boats" might no longer be straightforward.

 

Anybody know company law on this - I don't think LB ever went into receivership, did it - are it's directors still liable ?

 

Without commenting on the specific companies...

 

If "Old Company" wasn't liquidated, then even if it is no longer trading, it is liable.

 

Of course a claim might tip the old company into insolvency.

[alan_fincher]

If "Old Company" wasn't liquidated, then even if it is no longer trading, it is liable.

Yes - that sounds reasonable to me.

 

I fear "getting a result" might be harder though.

[Speedwheel]

I asked PRM this same question recently. Their response was that the warranty starts from the date it is dispatched from the factory.

[Guest]

I asked PRM this same question recently. Their response was that the warranty starts from the date it is dispatched from the factory.

 

Which given how long it takes to build a new boat is ludicrous.....clearly a case for ensuring your builder orders and fits these items as late as possible in the build time frame.

 

But realistically how practical is that??

[Smelly]

Athough I still think the warranty is dodgy Dave's absolutely right about the Sale of Goods Act.

 

A way around a "mothballed" company such as LB or a skint one such as an independent fitter would be to take a joint action against Isuzu. You as an interested or second party, both bringing the application. You could even meet the fees, it's only a couple of hundred quid to get it into County Court.

 

Unless HMI (who offer the warranty) wanted to get solicitors involved over the couple of hundred quid court fees they'd be gambling with over and above the work on the engine it's a good out for all concerned. Even then you're not into counsel figures taking this into court so gambling HMI getting a brief seems reasonable, it'd be a few hundred quid and in the circumstances, costs at this level are at the discretion of the Judge.

 

I can't easily see the OP without mucking about so will post and edit

 

edit...

S11 Sale of Goods '79 as revised leaves any "warranty" conditions subject to interpretation, however by the purchaser. Joint actions are the way to go.

 

(off the read the Grauniad article, I know there's Euro stuff floating around!)

 

edit... it does annoy me when papers don't link back to decisions

Edited February 16, 2010 by Smelly

[David Schweizer]

As has already been pointed out by Dave Mayall, the law is quite clear. If you were sold a new boat with a new engine, it's actual age is irrelevant. Under the Sale of goods Act it is the legal responsibility of the person who sold the boat to rectify the fault without any cost to yourself.

 

The situation is no different to that when you purchase something like a TV or washing machine from a shop as a new item. It does not matter how long it has been in stock, the period of guarantee starts when you agree to puchase it from the shop. So tell the people who sold you the boat that although it may not be their fault, it is their responsibility, and if they do not sort it out, you will be consulting a Solicitor with a view to taking legal action aginst them.

 

Not quite in the same league, but I recently had to take a similarily firm line with Tescos over the sale of a product that was not fit for puropose, and only when I threatened them with legal action did I get my money back.

Edited February 16, 2010 by David Schweizer

[blackrose]

The website may be helpful - it summarises and gives key facts about The Sale of Goods Act.

 

http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/.../page38311.html

 

Although it does sound like it is the builder and not HMI Isuzu who is responsible "It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract."

 

Also this website should help.

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentciti...ights/DG_182935

Edited February 17, 2010 by blackrose

[Grunge]

Why is this a "major" problem ?

Surely an inspection by a QUALIFIED engineer needs to assess the "problem".

On the Isuzu marine engines built by HMI, if you turn the key off the engine keeps running, because the STOP button no longer has power. The stop solenoid is energised to run, so needs power to STOP. Procedure for stopping is to press the clearly marked STOP button, and onece the engine has stopped, turn off the key. This is all in the handbook.

The only exception is if you have an ex Black Prince boat, which you do not have. These had a module fitted behind the panel which allows stopping via the keyswitch. This module is retrofittable, but from past experience, HMI will not know what you need !! Maybe best to try Engines Plus, run by the blokes who ran HMI.

As far as the oiling is concerned, has the engine been filled with the correct spec of oil....API CC ?

If you've refilled at the first service with higher spec oil and done no hard running to bed the engine down, this may be the problem. I would suggest you give the engine a good thrashing....preferably on a river to avoid wash and bank erosion. It may smoke like hell to begin with but may well clear. This will burn oil out of the exhaust, but bedding the engine in is probably the problem.

Hope this is of help !!

[bag 'o' bones]

From experience:

 

When you buy a product described as 'new' means an item that is new to the end customer of a supply chain, however many 'stages' there are in between.

 

In the case of the engine, the boat supplier should have negotiatied with the engine supplier for their warranty period to begin from the date that the boat was delivered complete to the end user, i.e. you.

 

However this all academic as it is you statutory right above 'warranties' to expect a product to be fit for purpose. In other words a engine that should have lasted way longer than 100 hours. As others have mentioned it is the sellers responsiblity not the manufacturers.

 

I'm pretty confident that if you took it to court you would win as the boat supplier would have to prove that they did not supply a boat with a faulty engine. Of course you would have to get the engine independently apraised by a qualified boat mechanic and have evidence that the maintainace schedule was up to date and completed in good time using genuine parts.

 

Of course winning the argument is only part of the battle getting them to pay for the damage is usually a lot harder and some cases almost impossible (although there are ways of getting around this problem )

[Dominic M]

The Sale Of Goods Act provides you with a 6 year period in which to claim. The success of that claim depends upon the product, but plainly an engine and gearbox should be expected, treated reasonably and properly serviced , to last that long. Your claim is against the seller, not the manufacturer.

[J R]

Bought a new boat in Oct 2008.

Just had a major problem with my Isuzu engine.

Found out the guarantee for the engine started when it was originally fitted into boat shell by Liverpool boats in 2007.

The boat was fitted out professionally by another boat company whom I purchased it off.

The engine has less than 100 hours.

I wonder if other boaters have had this problem ie guarantee run out on engine before they purchased a new boat.

In defence of the boat fitter they are doing there best to help me out but I think it came as a bit of a shock to them that the guaranttee ran out with Isuzu before they sold it to me.

Been in touch with HMI but they say any work on engine will have to be paid for.

A salutory lesson for me (and dammed expensive)

No doubt you will let me know your experiances.

 

Sorry to hear about your problems. The customer service and tech support from HMI, imo, over the past couple of years or so has diminished I feel. Bought an engine direct from them about 4 years ago for a new self build. Very pleased with the sevice got from the people when thay were in Tetbury. Discussed the warrenty issue with them and only filled in the warrenty card the day the boat was dropped in the water. They were happy with that. Engine was supplied and fitted five months previous to launch. Agree with the above posts as to your rights under consumer law.

 

Maybe off topic but. Surprised that the engine has 'failed' after 100 hours. Virtually unheard of as they are built like brick outhouses, are very forgiveing of abuse and are virtually bomb proof. Devils advocate, but are you confident that the engine hours on the panel equal those on the engine. Fit a new panel to an old engine and the hours start from zero. To sop the engine when running, make sure you are in neutral and press the 'sop' button on the control panel. If you turn the key to 'off' and press the stop button it will not stop as the stop acctuator has been neutrallised buy turning the key to off. There is an emergency off lever on the back right hand side of the engine. If you cannot find that, just put your hand over the air filter inlet. It will soon stop when starved of air. The engine will not run on sump oil. Is is possible that it has been damaged during installation? The units arrive from the factory pallettise and bolted down on a frame, so unlikely. How much oil is coming out from the exhaust? Could it just be an overfill on the oil level. From memory the first service is at 50 hours. Do you know who did that and what exactly was done. What oil spec is in the engine. The Isuzu will run better on the lowest (CC) spec oil. A high spec is not needed/required. Agree with Grunge, take the boat out and give the beastie of an engine a good thrash.

 

Let the forum know your updates with the boat supplier and your endevours.

 

Suggest that you go back to the people who you finally bought the boat off and be persistant with them.

[Grunge]

Sorry to hear about your problems. The customer service and tech support from HMI, imo, over the past couple of years or so has diminished I feel. Bought an engine direct from them about 4 years ago for a new self build. Very pleased with the sevice got from the people when thay were in Tetbury. Discussed the warrenty issue with them and only filled in the warrenty card the day the boat was dropped in the water. They were happy with that. Engine was supplied and fitted five months previous to launch. Agree with the above posts as to your rights under consumer law.

 

Maybe off topic but. Surprised that the engine has 'failed' after 100 hours. Virtually unheard of as they are built like brick outhouses, are very forgiveing of abuse and are virtually bomb proof. Devils advocate, but are you confident that the engine hours on the panel equal those on the engine. Fit a new panel to an old engine and the hours start from zero. To sop the engine when running, make sure you are in neutral and press the 'sop' button on the control panel. If you turn the key to 'off' and press the stop button it will not stop as the stop acctuator has been neutrallised buy turning the key to off. There is an emergency off lever on the back right hand side of the engine. If you cannot find that, just put your hand over the air filter inlet. It will soon stop when starved of air. The engine will not run on sump oil. Is is possible that it has been damaged during installation? The units arrive from the factory pallettise and bolted down on a frame, so unlikely. How much oil is coming out from the exhaust? Could it just be an overfill on the oil level. From memory the first service is at 50 hours. Do you know who did that and what exactly was done. What oil spec is in the engine. The Isuzu will run better on the lowest (CC) spec oil. A high spec is not needed/required. Agree with Grunge, take the boat out and give the beastie of an engine a good thrash.

 

Let the forum know your updates with the boat supplier and your endevours.

 

Suggest that you go back to the people who you finally bought the boat off and be persistant with them.

 

 

Be careful using your hand over air cleaner intake, better to use a rag.....and there's a hole in the underside of the intake snout, so rag would block this off when sucked in.

Stop lever is on front right hand (belt end, fuel pump side) corner, just inboard of the speed control lever that the cable is attached to. Pull this over and the engine will stop.

Oil overfill can be a problem as modern engines run with very little clearance between big end caps and oil level for compactnes. On the isuzu clearance is about 5mm.....and if overfilled oil will splash up the bores. This can cause a dramatic increase in running temperature, excessive smoking and slobber....wet gooey oil dripping from exhaust joints.