Damage report

[RLWP]

So far, so good on Tawny Owl. Last weekend all the batteries were dead flat, so we took them home and recharged the lot. The header tank was still full of water, so when Sue had wrestled the batteries in we started her up. No problems.

 

Turning on the cold water pump and everything was fine. Turned on the hot water pump and WATERFALL! One of the ancient Hep2o fittings half way down the boat in the calorifier feed had split. We released the copper pipe from the clips under the gunnel and replaced the fitting. When we turned the pump on again FOUNTAIN! The tee-piece in the shower room that connects to the feed from the calorifier has also split. I need to go and buy one to replace it.

 

Overall, seeing how cold it has been and that we hadn't drained anything down, pretty good.

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

The tee-piece in the shower room that connects to the feed from the calorifier has also split. I need to go and buy one to replace it.

Do you know that you are not just moving one further stage down the pipework to the next failed fitting ?

 

Or are you at the end of the "chain" by then ?

 

Interesting report though - it proves that the "we never do anything, and have never had problems" brigade can't necessarily speak for everybody else's on-board systems!

[carlt]

It's going to be my first trip to the boat, since the cold spell, this week.

 

Fingers crossed.

[RLWP]

Do you know that you are not just moving one further stage down the pipework to the next failed fitting ?

 

Or are you at the end of the "chain" by then ?

 

Interesting report though - it proves that the "we never do anything, and have never had problems" brigade can't necessarily speak for everybody else's on-board systems!

 

Dunno about how many more popped fittings there will be. I can't say I'm too bothered really. Because of it's hire-boat heritage all the fittings are easy to access. That is three fittings in the six years we have owned the boat.

 

I don't know if it is significant, but both these fittings were attached to straight copper pipes at gunnel level. If they had been lower down at canal water level, would they have frozen?

 

Richard

 

It's going to be my first trip to the boat, since the cold spell, this week.

 

Fingers crossed.

 

Are you beginning to feel like a chameleon?

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

I don't know if it is significant, but both these fittings were attached to straight copper pipes at gunnel level. If they had been lower down at canal water level, would they have frozen?

From max/min temperatures recorded on Chalice on an albeit real cheapy thermometer. I think the lower down any bit of pipework is, the better it's chances of survival.

 

Most of ours is serviced by "floor level" pipes, only rising above that where they need to. I think that's probably the least likely to give problems.

 

Of course because most of the pipework is low down, but the taps high up, draining it fully would be a pain anyway - I've never tried to!

 

I also suspect all plastic plumbing has a better chance than mixed plastic/copper, but can't prove that.

[Guest]

From max/min temperatures recorded on Chalice on an albeit real cheapy thermometer. I think the lower down any bit of pipework is, the better it's chances of survival.

 

Most of ours is serviced by "floor level" pipes, only rising above that where they need to. I think that's probably the least likely to give problems.

 

Of course because most of the pipework is low down, but the taps high up, draining it fully would be a pain anyway - I've never tried to!

 

I also suspect all plastic plumbing has a better chance than mixed plastic/copper, but can't prove that.

The flexible pipe from my water tank to the pump is just above the sole plate. It was frozen solid during the Christmas holidays. Seems to have survived though.

 

Don't let anybody tell us that "pipes below the waterline don't freeze." Mine did. I agree they would be less likely to freeze below the waterline.

[Québec]

Couldn't help notice that when we bought our boat (recently) every single Hep2o fitting had split from the cold but all the pipes were OK.

[Boaty Jo]

Couldn't help notice that when we bought our boat (recently) every single Hep2o fitting had split from the cold but all the pipes were OK.

 

That is unusual. Was the pressure taken out of the system when you left the boat?

 

I think that older Hep20 fittings had steel sleeves within joints and here you could have a problem with freezing. The newer ones are some sort of composite / plastic and freezing is less likely.

[Naughty Cal]

I also suspect all plastic plumbing has a better chance than mixed plastic/copper, but can't prove that.

 

Suspect you may be right on that one.

 

The t-piece that connects our two brass taps beneath the sink unit was plastic. This split causing a water leak in one of the most inaccessible places on the boat This has now been replaced with a brass replacement part.

 

It isnt just ours that suffered the same failure though. So far around 6 S23/S25's in our marina have suffered the same failure!!

[alan_fincher]

I suspect a number of us who rely on Hep2O for all our plumbing needs would be grateful of any more information that anyone can give about frost failures they have had.

 

Including.....

 

Was it older types, (all metal grab ring), or newer (largely plastic grab ring).

 

What type of pipe it was on, (plastic/copper).

 

What actually split, or otherwise failed.

 

Pictures anybody ?

 

I'd always assumed it fairly resilient - I'm sure some of ours has frozen, without any leaks.

[dor]

The only frost damage I've ever had in 20 years was a split Hep2o elbow under the bathroom basin and a split ceramic filter, though the housing didn't split. And they were when I thought I had drained down the entire system.

 

These days I don't drain the whole thing, but I always open all the taps and put the shower head in the bottom of the bath and let it drain. I know of several shower mixers that have failed in the recent cold period and whilst mine seems to be ok, I'm not convinced that the thermostatic module hasn't been affected.

[RLWP]

I suspect a number of us who rely on Hep2O for all our plumbing needs would be grateful of any more information that anyone can give about frost failures they have had.

 

Including.....

 

Was it older types, (all metal grab ring), or newer (largely plastic grab ring).

 

What type of pipe it was on, (plastic/copper).

 

What actually split, or otherwise failed.

 

Pictures anybody ?

 

I'd always assumed it fairly resilient - I'm sure some of ours has frozen, without any leaks.

 

1 15mm straight coupler - brown Hep2o grab ring type between 2 long straight runs of copper tube at gunnel level - body split

 

1 15mm tee piece - brown Hep2o grab ring type at end of long straight run of copper tube at gunnel level - body split

 

1 15mm elbow - brown Hep2o grab ring type in short runs of plastic below waterline - grab ring and collar pushed off pipe

 

Richard

 

Does that help?

[jake_crew]

The copper pipes harden with age and become "stronger", wheras the brass in the couplings gradually get weakened by zinc dissolving out in the water.

 

Its probably easier to have the couplings as a weak link, eaiser to replace than long lengths of pipe.

[alan_fincher]

[quote name='RLWP' date='Feb 8 2010, 12:38 PM' post='487430'

Does that help?

Only partially.....

 

None of the various types of Hep2O I have encountered are either brown, or contain any brown parts.

 

Almost all are grey, externally, and where plastic is used for part of the grab ring, then it's green.

 

Mind you David S has reported there are about 5 distinct types, I think, and I only really have two of them.

[RLWP]

The copper pipes harden with age and become "stronger", wheras the brass in the couplings gradually get weakened by zinc dissolving out in the water.

 

Its probably easier to have the couplings as a weak link, eaiser to replace than long lengths of pipe.

 

My couplings are plastic with stainless steel grab rings...

 

Richard

 

[quote name='RLWP' date='Feb 8 2010, 12:38 PM' post='487430'

Does that help?

 

Only partially.....

 

None of the various types of Hep2O I have encountered are either brown, or contain any brown parts.

 

Almost all are grey, externally, and where plastic is used for part of the grab ring, then it's green.

 

Mind you David S has reported there are about 5 distinct types, I think, and I only really have two of them.

 

They are definitely part of the Hep2o family and you can swap parts between the grey and brown fittings

 

Richard

 

Schweitzer will know.

[alan_fincher]

The copper pipes harden with age and become "stronger", wheras the brass in the couplings gradually get weakened by zinc dissolving out in the water.

Where the grap-ring in a Hep2O fitting is all metal, I'm sure all the ones I've seen are stainless steel.

 

I've never seen anything brass as part of a Hep2O coupling.

[Ralph Claydon]

Didn't the old "Acorn" fittings have brass parts?

[serenility]

The only frost damage I've ever had in 20 years was a split Hep2o elbow under the bathroom basin and a split ceramic filter, though the housing didn't split. And they were when I thought I had drained down the entire system.

 

These days I don't drain the whole thing, but I always open all the taps and put the shower head in the bottom of the bath and let it drain I know of several shower mixers that have failed in the recent cold period and whilst mine seems to be ok, I'm not convinced that the thermostatic module hasn't been affected.

A cautionary tale. In a boat we owned in the eighties I left the shower head in the shower tray and all the taps open when I left the boat one winters night. I returned a couple of days later, and found that the entire water tank had syphoned out into the shower tray and then into the bilge. There was about 9 inches of water in the aft cabin! It took ages to dry the boat out. Be careful of putting the shower head below the level of the water tank.

[jake_crew]

I thought the "Hep02" fittings referred to were the brass compression types commeonly used where you can't use solder ring (Yorkshire) couplings.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

[RLWP]

I thought the "Hep02" fittings referred to were the brass compression types commeonly used where you can't use solder ring (Yorkshire) couplings.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

 

No problem. More information here: Hep2o website

 

Richard

[Québec]

I suspect a number of us who rely on Hep2O for all our plumbing needs would be grateful of any more information that anyone can give about frost failures they have had.

Including.....

Was it older types, (all metal grab ring), or newer (largely plastic grab ring).

What type of pipe it was on, (plastic/copper).

What actually split, or otherwise failed.

Pictures anybody ?

I'd always assumed it fairly resilient - I'm sure some of ours has frozen, without any leaks.

 

 

This is what we found when we first inspected the boat before buying it. All the fittings were split, but the pipes turned out to be OK once we changed the fittings.

[boots]

Hi,

 

for what it is worth - this was our experience over Winter....

 

All of our plumbing is Hep20 (pipe & fittings), and there was no prep done for the Winter! (we had just bought the boat, and it was already frozen by the time we got on board...). To make it worse, she was on hard standing for the whole of the freeze..

 

Damage:

 

good news

- None to any Hep20 fittings

- None to engine, despite having no antifreeze and the water did freeze

- Calorifier seems to have escaped damage also

 

bad news

- Shower tap needed replacing

- Shower pump had seized, needed replacing

- Water pump sprung a leak, but this seems to been resolved by tightening the filter housing

- in-line water filter split, needed replacing

[alan_fincher]

This is what we found when we first inspected the boat before buying it. All the fittings were split, but the pipes turned out to be OK once we changed the fittings.

Thanks,

 

Genuinely helpful - I'd not expect that!

 

I might be a bit less cavalier with our water system in future!

[RLWP]

Thanks,

 

Genuinely helpful - I'd not expect that!

 

I might be a bit less cavalier with our water system in future!

 

I'll try and post ours for you. Essentially this year they have split along the body. Last time a fitting split like some of those shown, that is the cap split. My suspicion is that it had been leaking and the water trapped in the cap froze and bust the end off.

 

Richard

[Ray]

Apologies for highjacking the thread.

 

We have yet to check our boat out since the really cold weather. We'd drained the shower mixer and the shower pump sump. The electrics/water pump was turned off and the all the taps left opened. Latterly the pilot light on the Alde boiler has been left alight and the calorifier is right next to the boiler.

 

Interestingly, when we visited the moorings during the earlier cold snap, the canal water was frozen all around the boat, except between the side of the boat where all the plumbing is and the piling against which we're moored and which is about two inches away.

 

We've got shut off valves between the supply pipe runs and the shower mixer inlets and above those we have drain taps, which is how we drain the mixer. We also have drain taps in the supply pipes near the boiler but I've been thinking - and before anyone says so, I know that can be dangerous!

 

Draining the shower mixer is a bit awkward because the drains are behind the panelling on the side of the shower. I've been thinking of trying to make this task easier by moving the drain offs. My latest thought is to fit a T connector immediately adjacent to the T off the supply pipe, put a drain off in one leg of the T and then the stop valve in the other leg of the T and connecting that valve direct to the mixer inlet. This effectively moves the drain from above the shut off valve to below it.

 

This would allow us turn off the water pump, drain shower mixer and other taps by opening them and then opening the newly moved drain offs. I think this would have the effect of removing any water in any pipework above the supply pipe level. We could then close the shut off valves to the shower mixer and, if we wanted to recharge the water elsewhere on the boat, simply do so by closing the drain offs.

 

A couple of thoughts spring to mind. We have an Attwood shower pump that has a number of connections for inputs. We've only used one, which is connected to the shower tray. Can anyone see a reason why we couldn't connect the output side of the above mentioned drain offs to the currently unused inputs to the shower pump sump so that we don't have to keep emptying tubs of water as we drain the system?

 

Things would be slightly easier if we could could get a T connector and drain off combined as this would reduce the space required. Does such a beast exist that could be coupled to Hep2O pipework?