Engine position for trad

[jonk]

I have just been looking at narrowboats for sale and have found the rear entry for trad stern boats to be a problem. I know that many use the forward well deck entry, but has anyone got a solution for the rear? The problem appears to me to be that the engine intrudes into the position where entry steps would be convenient. If the engine were placed more forward and to the side with a hydraulic connection to the gearbox or prop would this be a feasible solution? I like the idea of a trad stern for Winter cruising.

 

Thanks, John

[alan_fincher]

Stand by to be told that a "genuine" "trad" doesn't have it's engine where you want to get down the back step.

 

You will be told the correct position is around 10 feet further forward, in an engine room, forward of a back cabin!

 

Of course even this arrangement has a raised floor to clear the resulting prop shaft and bearings, but it does make entry from the back somewhat easier.

 

Where a "traditional" engine room, (of this type), allows you to walk through the whole boat, (itself not a particularly "traditional" feature, to be honest!), you can expect a fair degree of dodging of exhausts, control rods, gear and speed wheels, etc, so it probably would still not solve your problem completely.

[jonk]

Stand by to be told that a "genuine" "trad" doesn't have it's engine where you want to get down the back step.

 

You will be told the correct position is around 10 feet further forward, in an engine room, forward of a back cabin!

 

Of course even this arrangement has a raised floor to clear the resulting prop shaft and bearings, but it does make entry from the back somewhat easier.

 

Where a "traditional" engine room, (of this type), allows you to walk through the whole boat, (itself not a particularly "traditional" feature, to be honest!), you can expect a fair degree of dodging of exhausts, control rods, gear and speed wheels, etc, so it probably would still not solve your problem completely.

 

Thanks - I am more interested in a modern 'trad stern' (should this be termed a 'short aft deck' rather?) rather than a separate engine room further up the boat. I was contemplating the engine to the port side and a wet area to the starboard of the steps leading down, hence the hydraulic coupling.

[Liam]

I find the proplem with modern trad style boats is that the engine protudes into the boat more than what the hatch does. A few friends have this setup and I always find you have to stoop when climbing up the steps.

 

I suppose the alternative is that you could have a larger than usual hatch which means that when it's pushed completely back, you can literally just walk up the steps and be on the back deck. In the winter, when the weather isn't so nice, you could pull the slide up to the usual position.

 

I've been on a boat with this setup, the slide is about 4ft long but the only problem is that it weighed a bloody tonne as it was all steel.

[jonk]

I find the proplem with modern trad style boats is that the engine protudes into the boat more than what the hatch does. A few friends have this setup and I always find you have to stoop when climbing up the steps.

 

I suppose the alternative is that you could have a larger than usual hatch which means that when it's pushed completely back, you can literally just walk up the steps and be on the back deck. In the winter, when the weather isn't so nice, you could pull the slide up to the usual position.

 

I've been on a boat with this setup, the slide is about 4ft long but the only problem is that it weighed a bloody tonne as it was all steel.

 

Thanks - yes, the weight would be the problem I think, but that idea is worth looking at.

[alan_fincher]

I find the proplem with modern trad style boats is that the engine protudes into the boat more than what the hatch does. A few friends have this setup and I always find you have to stoop when climbing up the steps.

Ours is "modern trad" (i.e. engine as far back as is reasonable).

 

You don't go over the front of the engine to get to the main accommodation, you drop down beside it.

 

Still a shuffle, and not perfect, but I quite like the arrangement.

 

A plus point is that because there is a dropped "corridor" along the whole side of the enine, the panel can be quickly removed giving very good access to everything on that side, which, fortunately, is just about everything except the fuel lift pump, and the manifold, header tank. All filters, belts, starter, alternator, injectors, glow plugs, etc can be accessed easily.

[casper ghost]

You could use a prop shaft and have the engine a couple of feet further forward and slightly to one side, that may help. With a hydraulic drive you could even hve the engine at the front if you wanted. I prefer an engine room, either right at the bck where you can't walk past it or forward of a back cabin.

[churchward]

Ours is "modern trad" (i.e. engine as far back as is reasonable).

 

You don't go over the front of the engine to get to the main accommodation, you drop down beside it.

 

Still a shuffle, and not perfect, but I quite like the arrangement.

 

A plus point is that because there is a dropped "corridor" along the whole side of the enine, the panel can be quickly removed giving very good access to everything on that side, which, fortunately, is just about everything except the fuel lift pump, and the manifold, header tank. All filters, belts, starter, alternator, injectors, glow plugs, etc can be accessed easily.

Ours is much the same arrangement and gives good access to the engine and getting into the cabin(Beta in our case) all except the damn oil filter where I have to curl myself around the engine head downward as it is on the opposite side!

 

I think I will have to dislocate my spine if the starter motor ever needs removing!

[jonk]

Ours is "modern trad" (i.e. engine as far back as is reasonable).

 

You don't go over the front of the engine to get to the main accommodation, you drop down beside it.

 

Still a shuffle, and not perfect, but I quite like the arrangement.

 

A plus point is that because there is a dropped "corridor" along the whole side of the enine, the panel can be quickly removed giving very good access to everything on that side, which, fortunately, is just about everything except the fuel lift pump, and the manifold, header tank. All filters, belts, starter, alternator, injectors, glow plugs, etc can be accessed easily.

 

I have inspected some boats like this and found the entry difficult. Presumably it gets easier with practice, but age is not reversible so our bend-ability is likely to reduce over the next decade.

[Québec]

... the slide is about 4ft long but the only problem is that it weighed a bloody tonne as it was all steel.

 

Naive question perhaps...but why does the hatch have to made of (heavy) steel?

[jonk]

Naive question perhaps...but why does the hatch have to made of (heavy) steel?

 

That sounds like a good question! What had you in mind - carbon fibre maybe?

[alan_fincher]

I have inspected some boats like this and found the entry difficult. Presumably it gets easier with practice, but age is not reversible so our bend-ability is likely to reduce over the next decade.

Yes,

 

As I freely admitted, it's not perfect.

 

That said I'm famed for my lack of flexibility, but it just becomes instinctive.

 

I'll agree those not doing it regularly can chose some funny approaches to passing through though.

 

My wife's 80 year old step mother came and joined us on the back more than once, so age doesn't necessarily defeat you!

 

 

Naive question perhaps...but why does the hatch have to made of (heavy) steel?

Not that naive - it's a relatively new thing - 30 years ago even a fully metal cabined boat probably still had wooden slides, which obviously weigh far less.

 

I'd say the fact that most are now steel is a mixture of security and reduction of maintenance, (paint tends to fall of horizontal slides made in wood).

 

Putting them on rollers is an option, and some people do this successfully, but you do need to design methods that stop someone's fingers being crushed by a few hundred kilos of "high-speed" hatch on the move when you are not expecting it.

[jonk]

Yes,

 

As I freely admitted, it's not perfect.

 

That said I'm famed for my lack of flexibility, but it just becomes instinctive.

 

I'll agree those not doing it regularly can chose some funny approaches to passing through though.

 

My wife's 80 year old step mother came and joined us on the back more than once, so age doesn't necessarily defeat you!

 

My wife and I also used some 'funny approaches' for the first few, despite neither of us being 'big' people. Some of our friends are somewhat large and I cannot see them fitting... It did get easier for us but I am still not comfortable with the contortions. Good for your step-mother!

[alan_fincher]

My wife and I also used some 'funny approaches' for the first few, despite neither of us being 'big' people. Some of our friends are somewhat large and I cannot see them fitting... It did get easier for us but I am still not comfortable with the contortions. Good for your step-mother!

We have some remarkably large friends who have made it.

 

Mind you when they both walk down the corridor on one side of the boat, it certainly produces an interesting lean. (The equal of most holding tanks that have gone from empty to full!).

[Québec]

That sounds like a good question! What had you in mind - carbon fibre maybe?

 

Actually had nothing particular in mind ...which is why I asked the question. The answer has to be light(er), but still secure and waterprood.

[wrigglefingers]

We have some remarkably large friends who have made it.

 

Mind you when they both walk down the corridor on one side of the boat, it certainly produces an interesting lean. (The equal of most holding tanks that have gone from empty to full!).

 

It was watching a larger than usual friend get onto Cobbett I realised that there's a limit on the width of my arse (and it's close) ...

[alan_fincher]

It was watching a larger than usual friend get onto Cobbett I realised that there's a limit on the width of my arse (and it's close) ...

Ah that word again!

 

Somebody has just chosen to call me that in another thread, as it happens!

[Richard T]

To see boats with a large hatch look at the Teddesley hire boats web site - http://www.narrowboats.co.uk/boats.htm. We hired Poppy many years ago and the arrangement worked well.

[journeyperson]

I have inspected some boats like this and found the entry difficult. Presumably it gets easier with practice, but age is not reversible so our bend-ability is likely to reduce over the next decade.

 

When we were looking at Egretta before buying and I went up the rear steps for the first time I thought someone had slipped up when constructing the access, or that the original owner who did the fit-out, had been very small. I put a grab handle in at my wife's request but entry and egress soon became instinctive as Alan says. I am just under 6ft and 62. If I become arthritic or otherwise immobile I'll have to think about another boat but for the forseeable future it's not a problem.

[steelaway]

That sounds like a good question! What had you in mind - carbon fibre maybe?

 

 

Hi

 

Whats wrong with aluminium?

Have you also considered off-setting the engine will make it a devil to compensate with your ballast.

 

Alex

[Osprey Sprinkler]

The problem appears to me to be that the engine intrudes into the position where entry steps would be convenient.

 

Shoot me if I am misunderstanding you here, but I don't think you would find it convenient to have steps where the engine is anyway.

 

You need flat floor here to stand on while you are steering. And, when steering in foul weather, you need to be able to shut the doors and keep the nether regions warm indoors with only the parts north of the equator sticking out above the hatch.

 

I've always assumed that this is why they make the hatch such a comfortable fit for the bahookie.

[Timleech]

Shoot me if I am misunderstanding you here, but I don't think you would find it convenient to have steps where the engine is anyway.

 

You need flat floor here to stand on while you are steering. And, when steering in foul weather, you need to be able to shut the doors and keep the nether regions warm indoors with only the parts north of the equator sticking out above the hatch.

 

I've always assumed that this is why they make the hatch such a comfortable fit for the bahookie.

 

The one & only boat which I've built from scratch has the engine tucked as far into the stern as possible, and enclosed in a stepped box which is really not much bigger than the traditional step and coal box, and the cabin is loosely based on the traditional Back Cabin.

This was the customer's stipulation (but my job to fit it in). OK, the engine is a 3-cylinder Mitsubishi, many people would want more horses today whether or not they really need them, which would probably mean another cylinder and a few more inches, but the concept is workable.

Actually the 3-cyl Mitsubishis sold today are rated for a lot more horepower than that one, which is over 20 years old and still going well.

 

Tim

Edited February 1, 2010 by Timleech

[the grinch]

my last boat had an offset engine the gearbox shaft end was 6" lower than the prop shaft and the 2 were joined by a middle shaft with a universal joint on each end.

no reason the same principle couldn't be used to slew the engine to one side with a couple of heavy metal bars to level under the floor of the walk through.

[PhilR]

Naive question perhaps...but why does the hatch have to made of (heavy) steel?

 

It doesn't of course

 

My boat (30 year old, all steel non trad) has a GRP sliding hatch and it still does the job perfectly.

 

Phil

[DHutch]

Engine room....

 

 

 

I have to say tho, if i was doing a 'trad' without an er i would certainly look at positioning the engine of center.

- Drolics can become expensive and are potentially not overly efficient or maintainance free however so i would be looking at doing this with a pair of cv joints or even uj's.

 

 

Daniel