BMC glow plug timer relay

[Evo]

Has anyone tried using a timer relay on an old BMC or the likes. ...Its just that I have one lying about. Last year I had a problem with my van heater plugs and got this Bosch timer relay as a spare from somewhere.

 

I thought I could improve the starting and unburnt fuel smoking after startup if I fitted it to the boat....I would need a heat sensor aswell but thats all really.

[Albion]

Has anyone tried using a timer relay on an old BMC or the likes. ...Its just that I have one lying about. Last year I had a problem with my van heater plugs and got this Bosch timer relay as a spare from somewhere.

 

I thought I could improve the starting and unburnt fuel smoking after startup if I fitted it to the boat....I would need a heat sensor aswell but thats all really.

 

Putting the plugs on a timer won't improve your starting as you can achieve just the same thing by keeping the key turned to the 'Glow Plug' position for as long or short a period as you wish before keying the starter motor.

 

If you have problems with after-start smoke then you might achieve some improvement by running the plugs for a brief period after the engine is running but, in my opinion, you are just attempting to disguise the symptoms of other problems (including duff heater plugs) by doing so. If everything else is correct then this is an unnecessary complication IMO. It's not as if you are worried about tight emissions regulation which has caused this after-start burn method to be fitted to some cars.

Roger

[nb Innisfree]

Well, on our Lister Petter LPWS4 the glow plugs disconnect when engine fires up, but on a diesel car ( I'm not talking of latest generation of common rail diesels) they will carry on heating for several seconds after glowplug light goes out and engine starts. If a car is started before glow plug light goes out then you can hear a slight squealing from the engine which seems to be due to cold diesel fuel not fully igniting so I would think keeping glowplugs going for a few seconds after engine start can be beneficial in very cold weather and a manual switch can achieve this simply.

[n.b.Goldie]

Well, on our Lister Petter LPWS4 the glow plugs disconnect when engine fires up,

 

Oh no they don't, on an LPWS they should carry on for a few seconds after 'fire up'. You can test it by putting a volt meter on any of the glowplugs whilst you fire the engine up. The reason is because it is an indirect injection engine and keeping the plugs lit for a few seconds is apparantly good for such motors.

 

Do not be confused by the lamp on the control panel, when it goes out it is time to turn the key but the glowplugs are still lit until the engine fires or the key turned off.

 

I found this all out when I investigated why my LPWS glowplugs permanently stayed lit when the engine was running, I could not understand where all the amps were going!

 

The timer unit had failed 'closed circuit' and Peter Thompson of Marine Engine Services sent me a new timer and it has been well since although I did mount the new timer off the motor, I cannot understand why electrical relays etc are mounted on the motor and are subjected to its vibration. I did notice the timer is a Ford part.

 

I also put a warning lamp on the 'dashboard', wired directly to the glowplugs via a fuse so that I can 'see' the glowplugs turn off.(wired in parallel so that all the power to the glowplugs does not pass through the lamp)

 

Ditchdabbler

[nb Innisfree]

Oh no they don't, on an LPWS they should carry on for a few seconds after 'fire up'. You can test it by putting a volt meter on any of the glowplugs whilst you fire the engine up. The reason is because it is an indirect injection engine and keeping the plugs lit for a few seconds is apparantly good for such motors.

 

Do not be confused by the lamp on the control panel, when it goes out it is time to turn the key but the glowplugs are still lit until the engine fires or the key turned off.

 

I found this all out when I investigated why my LPWS glowplugs permanently stayed lit when the engine was running, I could not understand where all the amps were going!

 

The timer unit had failed 'closed circuit' and Peter Thompson of Marine Engine Services sent me a new timer and it has been well since although I did mount the new timer off the motor, I cannot understand why electrical relays etc are mounted on the motor and are subjected to its vibration. I did notice the timer is a Ford part.

 

I also put a warning lamp on the 'dashboard', wired directly to the glowplugs via a fuse so that I can 'see' the glowplugs turn off.(wired in parallel so that all the power to the glowplugs does not pass through the lamp)

 

Ditchdabbler

 

Oh yes it does! they might but ours doesn't. On our Lister control panel the key has to be turned anticlockwise from 'off', against a spring to operate glowplugs, after counting 15 seconds the key then has to turn clockwise through 'off' and then through 'on' to spring loaded 'start' , glowplugs are not on a timer and turn off as soon as key is released from anticlockwise position. I have never noticed any problem with starting. Simpler and more reliable IMO, tho I suppose a manual push button operation would be just as simple and enable you to leave them on for as long as desired. Having said all that I have now modified ours to glow while key is 'on' and they turn off when engine starts so ours now doesn't I think LPWS engines vary a lot in different installations. On a car the lamp goes out when engine starts but glowplugs carry on with no indication.

Edited January 7, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Evo]

when I said easier to start...I meant the starting procedure would be the same as my van....which the missus drives no problems. When it comes to starting the boat and having to 'a' hold the key in funny position and 'b' guess how long to hold it..then it becomes an issue. I'm not saying she's daft..well....anyway... others will borrow the boat and if it starts like a diesel car it will be more convenient for them. Wait till the light goes out and then start. A conventional ignition/key can be used - not the mickey mouse thing its got at the moment. I'm really asking if the old style heater plugs can cope with it...Mine has the 1.5 type plugs...its one of the early 1800 engines. They require 17 secs plus to 'glow'.

 

Have I made myself a bit clearer...

[n.b.Goldie]

when I said easier to start...I meant the starting procedure would be the same as my van....which the missus drives no problems. When it comes to starting the boat and having to 'a' hold the key in funny position and 'b' guess how long to hold it..then it becomes an issue. I'm not saying she's daft..well....anyway... others will borrow the boat and if it starts like a diesel car it will be more convenient for them. Wait till the light goes out and then start. A conventional ignition/key can be used - not the mickey mouse thing its got at the moment. I'm really asking if the old style heater plugs can cope with it...Mine has the 1.5 type plugs...its one of the early 1800 engines. They require 17 secs plus to 'glow'.

 

Have I made myself a bit clearer...

I do not see why you cannot alter your starting arrangement to the same as a diesel car, there must be plenty of timer/relay units available from scrapyards, a new Ford unit is about £90 or so!

 

You will need to get one which gives you the correct timings though, so perhaps one from an old LDV van which probably used some sort of BMC engine.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

p.s. On our previous boat without a glowplug timer I 'trained' the missus as to the correct length of time to hold the key at the 'plugs-on' position with the rhyme;

 

'one potato, two potato, three potato, four, five potato, six potato, seven potato more' ; this gave the correct timing, the key turned and the engine started.

Edited January 7, 2010 by ditchdabbler

[nb Innisfree]

when I said easier to start...I meant the starting procedure would be the same as my van....which the missus drives no problems. When it comes to starting the boat and having to 'a' hold the key in funny position and 'b' guess how long to hold it..then it becomes an issue. I'm not saying she's daft..well....anyway... others will borrow the boat and if it starts like a diesel car it will be more convenient for them. Wait till the light goes out and then start. A conventional ignition/key can be used - not the mickey mouse thing its got at the moment. I'm really asking if the old style heater plugs can cope with it...Mine has the 1.5 type plugs...its one of the early 1800 engines. They require 17 secs plus to 'glow'.

 

Have I made myself a bit clearer...

 

Most cars only take a few secs to start engine so if you fit a timer it will need to have an adjustable time to suit your plugs, a timer won't harm plugs.

 

Edited to add: Ditchdabbler beat me to it!

Edited January 7, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Hairy-Neil]

You will need to get one which gives you the correct timings though, so perhaps one from an old LDV van which probably used some sort of BMC engine.

 

IIRC, Freight Rover vans were using a Peugeot diesel engine when LDV took over and later used the Ford Transit engine. In the days of the 1.8 BMC diesel being fitted to the Sherpa model they didn't use a timer to my knowledge.

 

 

Drivers then were able to count to 20......

[Evo]

ditchdabbler....excellent.....I 'll give her a trial run with that at the weekend. Bl**dy hell the old pig had better start.

[Evo]

Looks like I might have to give up with this one....if I had the later head I think I would be OK but the early head with 1.5 heater plugs are too slow and I cant find a purpose built timer relay that does 20secs...the most I can find is 8secs. It is posible because I can even buy a circuit board with fully adjustable everything and build my own but I'm not that worried about doing it...it would be nice to utilise the expensive relay I have lying about doing nowt but never mind. Folk will just have to get used to it. I'm sure she knows 'one potato'.

 

I'm just trying to make everything easy for the ladies....they will be having a few girls weekends this year and I dont want to be called out etc.

[John Orentas]

As has already been hinted at, for anyone who is having problems the most effective modification that can be made is to take the heating circuit away from the starter switch.. On most boats the heaters will turn off as soon as the starter is engaged, far better if you modify the electrical circuit so that the 'heat' position has it's own dedicated switch or button so that the heaters can be left energised after the engine has reluctantly started..

 

I have done this 'mod' on several boats, it makes a big difference.. Keep the button pressed until the white smoke* disappears..

 

*Note, not smoke at all but unburned fuel.

Edited January 8, 2010 by John Orentas

[alan_fincher]

I'm just trying to make everything easy for the ladies....they will be having a few girls weekends this year and I dont want to be called out etc.

I think you should count yourself quite luck some of the forum "ladies" have not yet seen this!

[Evo]

Why would a Lady want to talk about 'Glow plug timer relays'...tch.. I'm quite safe...

[WotEver]

Folk will just have to get used to it. I'm sure she knows 'one potato'.

She'll (they'll?) have to repeat the rhyme 4 times for 20 secs

[n.b.Goldie]

She'll (they'll?) have to repeat the rhyme 4 times for 20 secs

Yes, Its just a matter of extending the rhyme for the appropriate time - Simples!

 

Ditchdabbler

[Evo]

I'm a bit miffed now....I just did some testing on some old heater plugs....The really old CH32 champion things that came out of the original engine heat up to glow bright orange in 5-7 secs from freezing (i left them all outside in some snow for a bit). So do some later 1800 engine ones I have out of an old Sherpa engine. The brand new Durite ones in the boat take between 18 and 20 secs to do the same thing.

I've always thought I was having to hold them on longer than I did when we first put the engine in the boat in 1996.

 

Basically almost everything I've changed to make the engine more reliable seems to have had an adverse effect.....a crap Turkish fuel pump...the original went back on years ago...I'm assuming the water pump was the same and wore out amazingly quickly...its now got an original NOS UK one. I've even had to put the old Lucas starter back on now aswell. That came off a 100,000 mile Sherpa camper, the armature and brushes are well worn yet it still works a 1000 times better than the brand new one I recently bought.

 

I went straight back up the boat and put the old antique looking heater plugs in (they have been kicking around in my old toolbox for years and years)...I haven't started it for a fortnight and you all know how cold its been and still is, yet I counted to 10 turned the key and it burst straight into life. God I was peed off.

 

So I'm going to try my timer relay with these old glow plugs...it might just work. Gotta warm myself up a bit first, I'm boiling inside but cant feel my fingers or toes at all.

[RLWP]

If you can count to ten and start first time in this weather, why are you bothering with the timer? Sounds like you have an ideal starting system right there!

 

Richard

[ditchcrawler]

Looks like I might have to give up with this one....if I had the later head I think I would be OK but the early head with 1.5 heater plugs are too slow

 

snip

Old Land Rovers had 1.5 volt heaters connected in series with a dropper.You could buy 12 volt ones to replace them, don't know if they would fit a BMC

[Evo]

If you can count to ten and start first time in this weather, why are you bothering with the timer? Sounds like you have an ideal starting system right there!

 

Richard

 

It may seem that i did alot of changing of parts that didn't need changing...(dont fix it if it aint broke..blah..blah) well you have to know the history of the engine...its was a new boat with a 'new' recon engine from Thorneycroft and going in for its first service in the eighties. They were welding on the boat next to it....overnight that boat caught fire and both boats were torched. We bought the remains and rebuilt it. I thought I'd better replace all the parts that had anything rubber or any other kind of seal - or were remotely electrical. .The engine was burnt too. It had got that hot that the solder had run out of all the heat exchangers. it was covered in molten crap and then left half submerged in dirt rusty water for 5 years on a farmyard.

 

Dont get me wrong its been running around for 10 years with no problems at all....apart from the new fuel pump falling to bits and leaking oil everywhere. The in-laws have been setting off in May and comming back in september for a number of years and the only real fault has been a Jabsco pump impeller failure and the wire comming off the temp sender. Its never had a problem starting...it will always start...Its just that counting to 50 before you crank it over is not as nice as counting to 10.

 

The reason for the timer is to modernise it a bit, make it so other people - especially women and our kids - can start it like they do their cars.....so they dont see white smoke on cold mornings and start panicking. Its not an old boat that needs preserving in its original state..most people I know cannot believe its got a crappy old Sherpa van engine in it still...It was just a matter of preference for us at the time...neither me or the father-in-law liked the characteristics of newer engines and BMC's were tried and tested. I'm engine mad and tuned and raced all my own motorbikes. We went out looking at Kubotas and XLD's, we had a rebuilt Peugeot 2.4 and a Landrover 2.25 ...We could of easily marinised anything ourselves but thought noooo give the BMC a chance. So we did and its been great. Its Never let anyone down ever...the new fuel pump failed on the mooring before we'd even finished fitting it out, so I put the old one back on and forgot.

 

 

I dont like the missus saying ..."why am I having to hold the key for this long I didn't have to before, cant you make the light go out when its ready"......ITS A CHALLENGE..IT WILL IMPRESS HER..

[Evo]

Well I've found what i need....now all I've got to do is find one at the right price...!!!!!! the prices I've seen are horrendous....$300 aus

 

bogaard timer

[nb Innisfree]

Well I've found what i need....now all I've got to do is find one at the right price...!!!!!! the prices I've seen are horrendous....$300 aus

 

bogaard timer

 

Didn't realise how complicated glowplug operation could be