Gear lever in traditional engine room

[grunders]

Exactly what I'm after.

 

How far does the push pull travel at the steering position?

Is there a slot in the top bracket?

What does the spring do?

 

 

btw I know of 2 AS2's for sale fairly cheap, one running, one for spares if you're interested as I know this is the only way to get spares for them.

 

(in fact someone else near to these 2 has another but i got the feeling that he really wanted to get more for it.)

 

part of a job lot of 10 lifeboats that ended up in Bristol 10 years or so ago.

 

I shall ask my dad if he's interested in spare parts. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

On the gear lever topic, the design is slightly different to some other push-pull levers I've seen. Hopefully the pictures help to explain what I mean but, essentially, we have a lever going starboard to port, attached at the starboard end to the cabin roof (so it pivots on that end) and attached to the rod which goes to the boatman's cabin about a third along its length from the starboard end - I figure this must give slightly more leverage.

 

Apologies for the terrible pictures - I've never actually intentionally photographed the gear lever so these are both crops from larger photographs.

 

 

 

 

With this setup, the port end of the lever (the bit you hold) moves, I'd say, 6 inches from neutral to ahead and 4 inches from neutral to astern. I can't be certain of that though as its one of those things you don't really think about and I can't check as the boat is miles away.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a slot in the top bracket but I don't think I'd be able to say whether or not there is one anyway - I'm only going by the photographs and video I've shared.

 

I don't really know what the spring is for but I'd guess it is to prevent excess movement in the rod going down to the engine.

 

Really, I am guessing. I'm afraid I'm not an engineer.

 

Cheers, Ben

Edited December 14, 2009 by grunders

[madcat]

Quickly looking at this thread,my tea is nearly ready,I think as Halsall has an HA2 plus blackstone box and a geerwheel change using the GU origional set up then some linkages including a track rod end which survived the gravel trade[busy working boat] and the efforts of a novice steerer [me] probably a copy of that is what you need.So I do have a load of photos of it that I took for someone else but cant post any on here because I am a computer numpty.But maybe I could arrange to post you some prints or maybe my hubby could email you some so after tea[its ready] I will return to this and send you a pm [if I can get it to work for me]

Regards Tiggy n Boris.

[jake_crew]

On Jake we have the same 'box as moomin papa and have used a simple arrangement.

 

The fore-and-aft operating lever on the gearbox has been extended up to roof hieght. At this point the stroke from ahead to reverse is about 2' 6".

 

A 2" x 1/4" length of steel flat with a hole cut to loosely fits over the gear lever and goes along at roof level above the engine-'ole-to-back-cabin doors into the rear hatchway. It is supported by several tiny rollers made by yours truly. In the hatches, a D handle was welded on. The bar is not dead fore-and-aft, but skewed so that the D is as close to the side of the hatchway as poss. The bar length has been adjusted so that in ahead, the D handle is just approaching the coaming (so that you can't quite graze yer kunckles).

 

Neutral is a foot back which is OK, reverse is 18" further back which sound awkward, but actually doesn't get in the way.

 

Finally, so that the bar can't drop out of engagement, its cranked down wards slightly in the engine room.

Edited December 14, 2009 by jake_crew

[MoominPapa]

What does the extra pivot do over Hughc's description?

Does that make the travel of the push pull rod less?

I didn't build it, so I don't know the rationale for sure. I will make the travel a bit less because the pivot is lower. It probably also reduces the stress on the 'box lever.

 

MP.

[Liam]

Does this help you Chris? A gear linkage on a Blackstone coupled to a HA2

 

[Chris Pink]

Does this help you Chris? A gear linkage on a Blackstone coupled to a HA2

 

indeed it does, essentially the same as Mr Papa and Mr Crew, no?

 

I am interested in the whole installation, simple and neat.

 

Here's a diagram of the set up on Beatty;

 

Would it work with a push/pull handle? or is the (2:1 ?) leverage needed to operate it.

Is that a slot (in the Vimeo clip)?

Edited December 14, 2009 by Chris Pink

[Steve Priest]

You can alter the national gearwheel arrangement for use on a gearbox with a forwards / backwards movement, after all, Waterways did so when they replaced Nationals with Petters. Petters were fitted with Parsons F type boxes which also had a forwards/ backwards movement. We have fitted H series engines with Blackstone boxes into boats with gearchanges modified for Petters, and also set them up from scratch.

 

The brass u.j. on the bottom end of the vertical rod was removed and replaced with a horizontal arm, which was held onto the rod with a clamp on boss. This arm was 8.5'' from the centre of the vertical arm, to the centre of a hole in the outer end. The lower end of the rod was then supported by a bracket bolted to the bulkhead. This arm was then linked to the vertical gearchange rod with a pair of heavy duty track rod ends joined together at 7'' centres. One track rod end was fitted into the hole in the arm, the other was welded to the top of the gearchange shaft. The vertical gearchange rod measured about 22'' from the centreline of the gear change shaft to the bottom of the track rod end welded to the top, this gave 12''of movement at the top of this shaft. This gives about half a turn of movement at the gearwheel from ahead to astern , but also makes it quite stiff to use, but then people have managed with Petters for years. The cabin rod and roof bracket was moved towards the side of the boat, approx. in line with the engine beds, so that it worked outside the gearbox shaft. If the vertical rod is not far enough to the side of the gearchange rod, then leverage is lost and the gearchange will become stiffer, if it is too far away there is a possibility that the arm will travel 'overcentre' and will jam (in forwards). If there is a tendency to do this, it can be controlled by fitting a chain back to the bulkhead so that the arm can't move too far.

 

If you were to do this I would suggest that you take the national vertical rod out and keep it for the future and fit a new rod (7/8 bright bar), refit the larger roof bracket bevel gear to this, and fit the arm to the bottom. This arm could be welded on, but using a clamp on boss would allow for adjustment.

 

Some boats were fitted with a gear change lever mounted on the step, linked to the gearbox with a rod under the back cabin floor, and bell cranks.

 

The simplest option is just to fit a pull/push lever, as Tim Leech describes, you do get a lot of travel but it is perfectly workable.

 

Hope this makes sense

 

Steve Priest

Edited December 14, 2009 by Steve Priest

[MoominPapa]

indeed it does, essentially the same as Mr Papa and Mr Crew, no?

Yes, for Mr Papa.

 

MP.

[Chris Pink]

The brass u.j. on the bottom end of the vertical rod was removed and replaced with a horizontal arm, which was held onto the rod with a clamp on boss. This arm was 8.5'' from the centre of the vertical arm, to the centre of a hole in the outer end. The lower end of the rod was then supported by a bracket bolted to the bulkhead. This arm was then linked to the vertical gearchange rod with a pair of heavy duty track rod ends joined together at 7'' centres. One track rod end was fitted into the hole in the arm, the other was welded to the top of the gearchange shaft. The vertical gearchange rod measured about 22'' from the centreline of the gear change shaft to the bottom of the track rod end welded to the top, this gave 12''of movement at the top of this shaft. This gives about half a turn of movement at the gearwheel from ahead to astern , but also makes it quite stiff to use, but then people have managed with Petters for years. The cabin rod and roof bracket was moved towards the side of the boat, approx. in line with the engine beds, so that it worked outside the gearbox shaft. If the vertical rod is not far enough to the side of the gearchange rod, then leverage is lost and the gearchange will become stiffer, if it is too far away there is a possibility that the arm will travel 'overcentre' and will jam (in forwards). If there is a tendency to do this, it can be controlled by fitting a chain back to the bulkhead so that the arm can't move too far.

 

So tell me Steve, does this wonderful concise piece of engineering information exist anywhere else other than in your head and, now, here?

 

I hope you have firm plans for passing on all such information you have.

 

I will understand it, it will take a while but I'll get there. I will try a diagram tomorrow.

 

I think Tim earlier was implying that the force on the teeth of the crown gear would be too much but i guess not from this?

[Steve Priest]

Almost every G U boat coverted from a National to a Petter was set up like this ( apart from the couple that had levers mounted on the step). and those that have have been like that for the better part of fifty years!

[grunders]

Here's a diagram of the set up on Beatty;

 

Would it work with a push/pull handle? or is the (2:1 ?) leverage needed to operate it.

Is that a slot (in the Vimeo clip)?

 

Chris, I don't think the slot in your diagram is a slot, I think there is just a 'bracket' or similar that the bell crank pivots on. I can't see any reason for it being a slot and think the centre pivot point of the bell crank has to be fixed for them to work (at least that's how I see it). Although unclear, I think this can just about be seen on the video - here is a 'capture':

 

 

Ben

Edited December 14, 2009 by grunders

[Chris Pink]

Chris, I don't think the slot in your diagram is a slot, I think there is just a 'bracket' or similar that the bell crank pivots on. I can't see any reason for it being a slot and think the centre pivot point of the bell crank has to be fixed for them to work (at least that's how I see it).

 

Ben

 

I have adjusted the diagram (bet that fools one or two people).

 

I wasn't sure whether a slot was an 'adjustment' to make it work better.

 

Apart from that I've got it about right, then Ben?

[bristol & argo]

So tell me Steve, does this wonderful concise piece of engineering information exist anywhere else other than in your head and, now, here?

 

I hope you have firm plans for passing on all such information you have.

 

I will understand it, it will take a while but I'll get there. I will try a diagram tomorrow.

 

I think Tim earlier was implying that the force on the teeth of the crown gear would be too much but i guess not from this?

Chris,

 

Bristol has something like Steves description, but the cabin rod has been moved about 6" to starboard and has a D handle on the end for push-pull operation.

In the engine room, the verticle National rod is still there with Steves description matching the bottom end, but the top has a bar clamped on instred of the gear wheels with a long slot in the end. This bar engages with (vague memory now) peg on the end of the cabin rod.

Thus 12" push-pull travel on the cabin rod, rotates the national verticle rod by 60 deg, gives approx 12" fore-aft travel on the Blackstone operating lever.

 

Sorry i don't have any photo it, but if you are passing through Stoke Breune i'm sure Mike would show you.

 

Simon.

[hughc]

You are right - you need to read it again.

 

 

 

any idea, Hugh, what length of travel would be involved for a Blackstone gearbox? My impression is that we are talking many feet.

 

The total movement was about 2'6" as I remember.Regards, HughC.

[Hairy-Neil]

I seem to remember one of the Anderton CCCo's motor boats was done the same way. That could be enough to argue that it's 'Traditional' :lol:

 

Tim

 

BW's heritage boat 'Atlas' is/was like this. There was 4 - 5 foot of movement between forward and reverse. The linkage regularly fell to bits in use and we finished at least one memorable trip with an engineman....

[grunders]

I have adjusted the diagram (bet that fools one or two people).

 

I wasn't sure whether a slot was an 'adjustment' to make it work better.

 

Apart from that I've got it about right, then Ben?

 

Yes, I think so.

[flatplane8]

I'm not sure that this will help but in my video at http://www.vimeo.com/7190527 you can see the gear linkage bit in the engine room of Beatty though not particularly well. Wait for the video to load and then watch from about 1.20 - the metal rod going up is part of the gear operation mechanism thingy.

 

Once the rod disappears through the bulkhead into the boatman's cabin, it just attaches to a push pull lever.

 

I hope this is useful though I think it just shows what has already been described.

 

 

Like the look of that engine, similar to ours in that it looks well used rather than super shiny (which is also fine by the way )

[madcat]

Hairy Neil how long ago was Atlas suffering gear rod dropping to bits syndrome,its often next door to me and might need councelling !!!

Being not silly for a minute{its hard] did you resolve the issue or is it a nightmare in waiting.

I just remembered the roll pin fell out of part of my linkage by Wolverhampton Boat Clubs bridge and narrow bit and there was a smart looking boat coming.Luckily Trevor the Train was with me and became at least briefly the "missing link" and found the missing pin in the engine room.What a star eh,lets hear it for the steam railway men.Cheers

[davidg]

So tell me Steve, does this wonderful concise piece of engineering information exist anywhere else other than in your head and, now, here?

 

I hope you have firm plans for passing on all such information you have.

 

I will understand it, it will take a while but I'll get there. I will try a diagram tomorrow.

 

I think Tim earlier was implying that the force on the teeth of the crown gear would be too much but i guess not from this?

Chris,

I'll take some photos of mine tomorrow and post them. It is blindingly simple and, as Steve says, has worked on former GUCCCo boats for many a long year. In my case on a Petter, an SR3(!), and two different Armstrongs with two different gearboxes (D type & F type) for the last 25 years.

 

David

[Chris Pink]

Chris,

I'll take some photos of mine tomorrow and post them. It is blindingly simple and, as Steve says, has worked on former GUCCCo boats for many a long year. In my case on a Petter, an SR3(!), and two different Armstrongs with two different gearboxes (D type & F type) for the last 25 years.

 

David

 

Great, thanks David.

[davidg]

Great, thanks David.

Chris,

 

The repositioned bevel gear bracket bolted to the engine room roof, note the old National hole through the bulkhead, below/to the right of the copper(must polish the paint off it) pipe to the oil clock.

 

 

From here on it gets very agricultural...

 

The vertical shaft support bracket, arm clamped (keyed? I've never looked) to the vertical shaft and track rod end. On mine the shaft you see dangling from the second ball joint is a sliding fit in a length of 1/2"bsp tube which serves as the gearbox operating lever

 

 

Finally with the gearbox operating lever in place.

 

 

Can't show the final link to the gearbox at the moment as the box is sitting on the engine room floor being swapped for a spare after the oil thrower decided it didn't want to be part of the gearbox any more.

 

Hope this makes things clearer,

 

David

[Chris Pink]

Hope this makes things clearer,

 

David

 

It does indeed, having acquired the HA2 I am surprised to find the gearbox a lot easier to operate than I remember the last one i had. Thus I can imagine how this would work.

 

With the gearbox on an HA3 i used to own which had an 18" long lever, a knee as well as a hand was essential for changing gear. The box on the HA2 is easy enough with a 10" lever so I figure remote control is possible.

 

I'll probably go for the bell crank/Beatty method, although the underfloor method mentioned by Steve is also tempting as the amount of jigging about is much less. I would simply need to duplicate the action of the quadrant at the steering position and connect the 2 with a long piece of round bar.

 

The bell crank is to my mind the most elegant although it does depend on whether the push pull lever would have enough umph.

[casper ghost]

 

Hi. Is this gear off a very old hand pillar drill, only i have one and it looks the same. Be a cheapish way to get gears as my drill in perfect condition only cost 12 quid..

[Chris Pink]

Hi. Is this gear off a very old hand pillar drill, only i have one and it looks the same. Be a cheapish way to get gears as my drill in perfect condition only cost 12 quid..

 

I thought I recognised it. I've got a hand drill somewhere with an almost identical crown gear.

 

It's a bit smaller than the one on my National although i have no reason to believe that's original.

 

I seem to remember posting a picture of it for someone a while ago.

 

 

Which reminds me, grease, dear David, grease....

Edited December 17, 2009 by Chris Pink

[furnessvale]

I just remembered the roll pin fell out of part of my linkage........

 

The rollpin fell out of the pinion on Alton just as I was swinging into the cabin using the gearwheel (as you do). Suddenly me, the gearwheel and the attached shaft were flying backwards across the counter. Fortunately it was a younger and fitter me than nowadays, or it would have been yet another early bath!

 

George ex nb Alton retired