Changing Gas Bottles

[kendo]

Dear Boaters.

 

Searched the forum, but could not find the answer. Our boat

has gas bottles. I'm new to boating, and never changed them

before. Quite simply, i'm bricking it. Please could somebody

explain how it is done.

 

 

 

Thankyou.

Ken

[Robbo]

Easy,

 

Turn knob on top of cylinder to turn it off, use spanner to remove hose (its left threaded, so goes the opposite way to normal, so clockwise to loosen).

 

Do the opposite, to install cylinder.

[alan_fincher]

If you were to have just a single cylinder, it is as simple as close that brass wheel valve on the top, (it's marked with direction for open and close).

 

Undo the connection to the cylinder - there are purpose "calor" spanners for the job.

 

The thread direction is the reverse of normal, so you need to undo (or do up) by spannering in reverse direction to a conventional nut and bolt.

 

Extract old cylinder, and replace with new.

 

Reconnect connector, (remembering revesrse threas), and spanner nice and tight (the cylinders usually come with a black screw in plug that you need to remover before doing that.

 

Open the tap.

 

But you appear to have two cylinders connected by an automatic change over valve. These generally have non return valves on the feed from each cylinder, making it OK to change one with the other still connected and turned on. But I can't guarantee in your situation - if there is any doubt at all, turn off all appliances, and both cylinders before changing either. In that way you can't end up with the gas from the one you are not disconnecting pouring out from the removed connector of the one you are.

 

In this I have assumed that the black hose you can see coming from the left of the change over valve, (being pointed at by red arrow), is connected to the cylinder you have depicted, (that bit looks fine).

 

I'm guessing you have a second cylinder, but that appears to be connected in some way by what looks like a combination of orange hose with Jubilee clips,and possible solid tubing beyond, (and presumably again back to flexible to get to a cylinder you have not pictured).

 

Personally I don't like the look of that particular bit of it, and am not sure a BSS inspector would either. There should be as few joins as possible, and it is best to only use flexible pipe at points where it must be flexible, (sticking to solid elsewhere). If I'm right, it doesn't really comply on either point, IMO. I would not want one quite like that, personally.

 

Post pictures of all of all the pipes, and we can be more certain if it could be improved.

[johnjo]

Just for starters your connections don't look right to me. The unit with the arrow on it is an auto changeover valve and normally you would have two bottles connected to it, one on each side, and the supply into the boat from the bottom with an on/off tap just below, also the conection on the right, which should normally be connected to the second bottle, in the photo has what looks like a corroding jubilee clips, I would change them for a S/S ones.

 

When changing an empty bottle [it'll be very light], close the tap on the top of the bottle, then undo the connector remembering it's a left hand thread so undoes in a clockwise direction. Then just reconnect the new one [don't over tighten, but make sure it's firm] ensuring you don't crossthread it. Turn on the tap, check there are no leaks, job done.

Edited December 13, 2009 by johnjo

[bottle]

Agree with Robbo and Alan but I think that the changeover valve is manual (white knob).

 

I do think it needs looking at by someone qualified in the fitting of gas on a boat.

 

Edit: third one (johnjo) for automatic, looks like I'm outnumbered, I got distracted before actually posting.

Edited December 13, 2009 by bottle

[kendo]

if there is any doubt at all, turn off all appliances, and both

cylinders before changing either. In that way you can't end up with the gas from the one you are

not disconnecting pouring out from the removed connector of the one you are.

words of wisdom heeded.

 

In this I have assumed that the black hose you can see coming from the

left of the change over valve, (being pointed at by red arrow), is connected to the cylinder you

have depicted, (that bit looks fine).

the fully visible cylinder is the second one. the first was similarly attached, so i didn't

bother photographing it.

 

Personally I don't like the look of that particular bit of it, and am not sure a BSS inspector would either. There should be as few joins as possible, and it is best to only use flexible pipe at points where it must be flexible, (sticking to solid elsewhere). If I'm right, it doesn't really comply on either point, IMO. I would not want one quite like that, personally.

thanks for the insights, Alan. We've just taken on the boat, and hope to have everything certified safe by properly qualified mechanics and engineers. I will certainly draw their attention to that.

 

much appreciated.

[nb Innisfree]

The pipe from cyl is under high pressure and should be suitable for that + the low pressure hose after the reducing/changeover valve should be clamped the same really.

[alan_fincher]

.....but I think that the changeover valve is manual (white knob).

Yes, you could be right.

 

But if so, why is the arrow apparently under some kind of plastic cover.

 

The arrow looks like those on an auto-changeover, but you are correct, the whole thing it's part of looks like it may be a manual change over.

 

Someone may recognise the type, I guess....

[kendo]

normally you would have two bottles connected to it, one on each side, and the supply into the boat from the bottom with an on/off tap just below

nod. we have two. one on each side. but i didn't know where the on/off switch was. thanks for the tip.

 

corroding jubilee clips, I would change them for a S/S ones.

that whole bendy region needs investigation. the boat electrics were bodged, and we're beginning

to suspect the gas was too. it's been signed off "safe" until 2013, but i don't see how.

 

thanks for your assistance everyone.

i feel better now. still slightly worried that the spanner could spark.

but with everything off as Alan suggested, that danger is reduced.

 

appreciated.

 

[bottle]

This is an automatic (changeover and regulator) one, just to show kendo what it should look like, the two outer connectors are to the bottles and the centre one to the appliances

[mrsmelly]

This is an automatic (changeover and regulator) one, just to show kendo what it should look like, the two outer connectors are to the bottles and the centre one to the appliances

 

Lovely picture.........and from a gas free boat to boot.............

[ditchcrawler]

words of wisdom heeded.

 

 

the fully visible cylinder is the second one. the first was similarly attached, so i didn't

bother photographing it.

 

 

thanks for the insights, Alan. We've just taken on the boat, and hope to have everything certified safe by properly qualified mechanics and engineers. I will certainly draw their attention to that.

 

much appreciated.

I am surprised your surveyor didn't pick it up as requiring attention

[kendo]

I am surprised your surveyor didn't pick it up as requiring attention

He only surveyed the hull for us, ditchcrawler. Which he did very well.

We niavely assumed that as the boat was certified 'safe until 2013',

there would be no major work that needed doing. a certain level of

neglect was apparent, and we knew this would cost money to rectify.

but we weren't sure of the complete extent until we could get on her

to find out for ourselves.

 

 

thanks for the pic, bottle.

I can clearly see that it's supposed to be one pipe, and not a bendy thing with corroded clips.

 

ta.

[johnjo]

'still slightly worried that the spanner could spark.'

 

The fixing on the pipe to the gas bottle is brass and unless you had a major leak and build up of gas, an explosion is extremly unlikely in any case.

 

Gas is heavier than air and if you look near the bottom of the gas locker you will see holes to the outside of the boat, [hopefully] these are not just to drain water but also any gas that may lay there, so make sure they never get blocked.

Edited December 13, 2009 by johnjo

[alan_fincher]

"Safe until 2013" Do you mean you have a Boat Safety Certificate valid until then?

 

Your gas installation should comply with Section 7 of the BSS - dowloadable from here.

 

If that orange pipe on the right of your first picture is normally connected to the second cylinder, then that's a BSS failure. The BSS requires that all hoses on the high pressure side of the regulator should be pre-assembled, not DIY jubilee clip jobs!

 

David

Yes,

 

Of course David is correct.

 

Relevant bit is....

 

All LPG hoses on the high-pressure side:

. must consist of pre-assembled lengths of hose of proprietary manufacture; and,

. must not exceed 1m (39 in) in length; and,

. must be marked to BS 3212 type 2 or equivalent.

 

As you mention "signed of until 2013, it would imply a BSS inspector has issued a valid certificate on this boat within this year, (2009), something in my view they should not have done, as that lashed together pipework has clearly been there a lot longer than that.

 

Although it will not help your situation, I feel you should raise this directly with the BSS Office, who are very keen to learn about cases where certificates have been issued where a major point should clearly have been a fail.

 

At least the steps might get taken to prevent whoever was the examiner from continuing to pass other stuff that is potentially dangerous.

 

Worrying if they will pass this, what else they may have ignored - sorry - but I think it needs to be said.

[Big John]

it's been signed off "safe" until 2013

Surely, like an MOT a BSS only states that the relevant regulations were complied with at that point in time. In the case of the BSS another test is not necessary for licensing purposes for another 4 years. However, there is no guarantee that during the 4 years it will remain "safe"

Edited December 13, 2009 by Big John

[bottle]

Yes John, you are correct but looking at the photo's, even if the test was last January, I do not think this boat complied.

[DHutch]

It deffonarlty looks like an auto change over valve to me, we have one that looks identical on our house, two high presure in puts on the left and right, output down to the regulator below and on to the appliences.

 

Changing the bottle is as say fairly easy.

- The 'pig tails' (high presure hoses from the change over to the bottles) should have no return valves in the change over valve end meaning you only need to turn off the bottle your changing usally, although if you unsure or leaving it for any amount of time i would always turn off both. Left hand thead as said. Make sure the curved mating faces are clean and free from damage (not always the case sadly) and dow it back up. Needs to be firmly done up but not super gorilla-tight.

 

Then as said, get that orange hose and rust hose clips sorted.

 

Looks to me like someones done a bit of a 'get you home bodge' having found there isnt actaully room for most hoses with a ferrule'd end to bend round before hitting the locker bulkhead. You maybe be able to get a pigtail with a 90deg end to it, or a brass bend to go between the pigtail and the change over valve although i've never seen anywhere wheres thats been done (becuase usally you just put the regulator/change over less close!)

 

Good luck and welcome to boating!

 

Daniel

[Keeping Up]

Just in case you don't know, and it doesn't look as if anyone else has covered it in this thread, the arrow on the auto changeover valve shows red when the bottle that it is pointing to has no pressure, it shows white when the bottle still has pressure. The usual way of using it, is that you start with two full bottles both turned on; whichever way you turn the valve it shows white. When it turns red you have an empty cylinder but the valve automatically starts to take its supply from the other cylinder. At the first opportunity you need to change the empty one. You wait until you have the chance to change it, then you turn off the empty cylinder and rotate the switch which should then show a white arrow. It is then safe to disconnect the pigtail from the gas bottle (anti-clockwise thread as someone above mentioned); there should be non-return valves both in the changeover valve and in the pigtail (once any bodges have been sorted out) so you can leave the unused one dangling until you connect the new full cylinder. Tighten it up and turn it on, then listen to make sure there's no obvious leak. Do not touch the auto changeover valve, which stays white until your second bottle becomes empty and you repeat the process with that one instead.

 

HTH

[kendo]

Worrying if they will pass this, what else they may have ignored - sorry - but I think it needs to be said.

That's fine, Alan. No offence taken. I'm willing to rectify and make good.

I want us to be 100% safe with potentially explosive substances onboard.

Thanks very much for your observations, which could ultimately save our

lives.

 

 

I have just dug out the certificate.

It is a BSS certificate dated 27 jun 2009.

valid until june 2013.

 

I will not print the examiners name here, and i dont' really want to poop in

my own nest. But i take your point that they should not be signing off unsafe

boats. If you think i should contact the BSS, please can you PM me how, and

where to. thankyou.

 

I don't know about the pressuring.. but the orange bendy bit is nearest to the cabin,

and the (Rimmini) heater is on the other side of the bulkhead. I would guess that is

the first bottle in the chain, and the one fully pictured, the remotest one, is secondary.

 

 

 

Looks to me like someones done a bit of a 'get you home bodge'

lol... that's pretty accurate, judging by the rest of the boat.

thanks Daniel.

 

the arrow on the auto changeover valve shows red when the bottle that it is pointing to has no pressure, it shows white when the bottle still has pressure. The usual way of using it, is that you start with two full bottles both turned on; whichever way you turn the valve it shows white. When it turns red you have an empty cylinder but the valve automatically starts to take its supply from the other cylinder. At the first opportunity you need to change the empty one.

great stuff, thankyou.

 

it was a big relief to hear about the sparkless metals.

Sounds niave. A small niggle in the back of the mind.

Thanks for not laughing.

 

[Ray]

Looking at the picture it is unlikely, but it is possible, that the hose was changed after the inspection.

 

As the OP was not the one who arranged the inspection then it would be difficult to definitely say that the BSS inspector failed to spot this. I doubt the BSS people would take any action against a surveyor on that basis unless they had had other complaints about that surveyor and then they'd probably only add the report to the growing pile.

 

Are there any grandfather rights as far as a gas installation is concerned. In other words, if the installation was like that when the BSS scheme first came in, is it allowed to stay that way until one element in the arrangement changes, at which time the rest must be brought into line? It may be that the current arrangement is the lesser of two evils. Just a thought.

 

I think someone told me that gas hoses have to be changed every x years (and x=5 springs to mind).

[the grinch]

as a gas engineer myself i would recomend renewing the whole set

you can get the set complete from BES in birmingham they will send it via carrier

 

cost you about £40 for a manual 2 set

or up to £100 for an auto 4 set

 

as for the inspection. the inspector would have to verify that the installation was safe at the time of inspection.

the Hoses have a 5 year life after which they are deemed to be life expired.

i very much doubt that the hoses shown are less than 5 years old.

[kendo]

Looking at the picture it is unlikely, but it is possible, that the hose was changed after the

inspection.

it's not beyond the realms of possibility, Ray. we suspect thats what went on with the electrics.

the inverter was fitted, signed off as safe. then a rats nest of bodged extension leads added.

 

the mechanic i was speaking to said such practices occur regularly.

(but he didn't condone them, i must say).

[alan_fincher]

As the OP was not the one who arranged the inspection then it would be difficult to definitely say that the BSS inspector failed to spot this. I doubt the BSS people would take any action against a surveyor on that basis unless they had had other complaints about that surveyor and then they'd probably only add the report to the growing pile.

I'm not sure when you mean surveyor, if you are actually meaning the BSS inspector named on the last BSS certificate?

 

It has been explained that only a hull survey was done when OP bought the boat, so therre is no area for possible complaint there, but I'd be surprised if BSS were not interested in the BSS Inspector, as it seems inconceivable to me that thas old hose and rusty clips were not there at the time of the inspection.

 

The worst is they can say "not interested", but you might save it happening to somebody else.

 

Rob McClean, (spelling maybe wrong ?), of the BSS office used to post regularly on the forum as user "Rob@BSSOffice", but does so less now, and has previously warned that forum PMs to him will not always reach him due to full mailboxes.

 

However he gave an alternate contact point in this post.....

 

Link to Rob's post

 

I'll not repeat the email address to avoid spam, but you can work it out from that post.

 

I'd mark it as "FAO Rob McLean" and "Query about safety of BSS Inspection - High Pressure LPG connections"

 

Alternatively you might get some response using this contact fgorm....

 

Boat Safety Scheme "Contact Us" Form.

 

Sorry you have found there is a lot to sort out - it would be nice if a recent BSS certificate guaranteed compliance with the regulations, but sadly this does not always seem to be the case.

[bottle]

I think this thread proves what is always said about buying a boat

 

'Get your own survey done, the BSS certificate is not worth the paper it is written on'

 

 

Kendo, sorry you have this problem but lets hope someone learns from your misfortune.

 

I do hope there is not something else lurking in the undergrowth boat.

 

Good luck with her