Springer register anyone??

[Madmark62]

The ad confirms that they built broad beam boats, 8, 10 & 12ft. There was some debate about this on the narrowboats in france thread when someone posted a pic of one emerging onto the Seine.

 

Hi there are a couple of Springer widebeams for sale on ApolloDuck

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=130018

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=130734

 

this one takes a bit of believing tho`

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=126026

 

 

here is a live link to the Facebook page

 

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/S...20330953?ref=nf

 

They were built with flat bottoms.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Madmark62

[Athy]

The one which "takes a bit of believing" does not look like a Springer. The date is also suspect; the broker veers between 1994 (when I believe the very last Springers were made - can anyone confirm?) and 1995, and as for a 25mm baseplate thickness...!

The advert for the "Samson" is fascinating; from the text, this model must have been introduced in 1983 or 1984. So was that the date when Springers lost their slightly peaked roof and gained a more normal curved roof, and maybe when they changed from the transom stern to the curved one?

The firm also used the name "Samson" for fishing boats which they built.

Techonphobe question: how does one post a message on Face Book? I theoretically am a member of it but have never posted anything. I've looked on the page and can't find a "post reply" button; as i would like to send a photo of my newly-acquired boat I'd appreciate help.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Athy

[alan_fincher]

this one takes a bit of believing tho`

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=126026

 

 

The one which "takes a bit of believing" does not look like a Springer. The date is also suspect; the broker veers between 1994 (when I believe the very last Springers were made - can anyone confirm?) and 1995, and as for a 25mm baseplate thickness...!

Well in their PDF brochure for the boat Virginia Currer are claiming....

 

The vessel was sold by ourselves to the first owner as a new hull, and again from him to the current owner.

 

so they don't have a lot of excuse for saying it's Springer if it isn't really!

 

I suppose on the 1994 versus 1995 thing, they could be claiming a shell built in 1994 versus a fit-out not completed until 1995.

 

Isn't it remarkable just how many of the Springers on sale happen not to have been built until the 1990s !

[daves6guitars]

The one which "takes a bit of believing" does not look like a Springer. The date is also suspect; the broker veers between 1994 (when I believe the very last Springers were made - can anyone confirm?) and 1995, and as for a 25mm baseplate thickness...!

The advert for the "Samson" is fascinating; from the text, this model must have been introduced in 1983 or 1984. So was that the date when Springers lost their slightly peaked roof and gained a more normal curved roof, and maybe when they changed from the transom stern to the curved one?

The firm also used the name "Samson" for fishing boats which they built.

Techonphobe question: how does one post a message on Face Book? I theoretically am a member of it but have never posted anything. I've looked on the page and can't find a "post reply" button; as i would like to send a photo of my newly-acquired boat I'd appreciate help.

 

All you need to do to make a comment is to click the comment link under the post, or if you like the post but do not want to comment, just click the 'I like this' link. You can put photo links in here as well, but they wont upload to the site. If you want to post photos to the site, go to the left hand side of the page where all the fans are listed, scroll down a bit and there's a link for fans to add photos, and just follow the instructions. If none of this works, you'll have to register with Facebook, but I guess from what you're saying you already are. Be nice to see the pics.

 

Dave

 

Ah well, if yours is 1977 / 1978, it's a lot older than I can turn up an advert for.

 

Try this, though, from November 1984,issue of "Narrow Boat"

 

 

Less than 2 years later the same advert still appeared, but the "ex VAT" prices had risen a lot....

 

£8,920 became £10,128

 

£6,350 became £8,253

 

£840 became £1,314.

 

(So shellpries rose a lot faster than fully fitted boats,it seems)

 

I guess I'm surprised you have an example as late as you do that is a wooden top. I guess there was no such thing as a "standard" boat.

 

Just looking at this again...cant fathom out how they get 6 berths in there. We have a fixed double and space for 2 put ups in the living area, but no way could we get 2 more in to the same 38' !!

[Athy]

All you need to do to make a comment is to click the comment link under the post, or if you like the post but do not want to comment, just click the 'I like this' link. You can put photo links in here as well, but they wont upload to the site. If you want to post photos to the site, go to the left hand side of the page where all the fans are listed, scroll down a bit and there's a link for fans to add photos, and just follow the instructions. If none of this works, you'll have to register with Facebook, but I guess from what you're saying you already are. Be nice to see the pics.

 

Dave

 

 

 

Just looking at this again...cant fathom out how they get 6 berths in there. We have a fixed double and space for 2 put ups in the living area, but no way could we get 2 more in to the same 38' !!

Either there was the option to have 2 bunks each side of the cabin, or two people slept on the galley floor! Boaters in those days expected to have lots of berths crammed into a small space, and builders used considerable ingenuity to supply this requirement - there was a post on CW recently in which someone recalled hiring a 50-footer which had FOURTEEN berths! It wouldn't do these days, no space for the 8 foot granite work top and the free-standing sofas.

 

 

Isn't it remarkable just how many of the Springers on sale happen not to have been built until the 1990s !

Well, there are probably more 1990s cars for sale than there are 1980s cars, simply because they are not as old and have not yet reached the end of their useful lives.

Of course one must accept Currers' word for it, but it is strange that the boat looks nothing like a conventional Springer. perhaps someone bought the name after the company closed down and used it as a brand name for their own, quite different, boats?

[alan_fincher]

Either there was the option to have 2 bunks each side of the cabin, or two people slept on the galley floor! Boaters in those days expected to have lots of berths crammed into a small space, and builders used considerable ingenuity to supply this requirement - there was a post on CW recently in which someone recalled hiring a 50-footer which had FOURTEEN berths! It wouldn't do these days, no space for the 8 foot granite work top and the free-standing sofas.

Yes, my guess is that the two six foot(ish) sofas in the front cabin could be converted to 2 pairs of bunk beds.

 

Hire fleets of the 1970s often packed 4 bunks into only six foot(ish) of cabin length,multiple times, sometimes, (8 people in 12 feet(ish), etc).

 

They were fairly claustrophobic, the walk through space restricted, and the top bunks really rather narrow indeed.

 

People generally accepted this back then - the typical hire boat was very much shorter than today, for any quoted number of berths.

[WJM]

Interesting that a 'Round Stern' is listed as a desirable feature. For all their technical brilliance, I think the Sea Otter aluminium boats are hopelessly let down by the square back, utterly horrible to my eye!

[Naughty Cal]

Interesting that a 'Round Stern' is listed as a desirable feature. For all their technical brilliance, I think the Sea Otter aluminium boats are hopelessly let down by the square back, utterly horrible to my eye!

 

Ah, i dont know, they have a certain charm.

[carlt]

Of course one must accept Currers' word for it, but it is strange that the boat looks nothing like a conventional Springer. perhaps someone bought the name after the company closed down and used it as a brand name for their own, quite different, boats?

Just as a matter of interest, why would anyone claim that the boat they're trying to sell is a Springer, when it isn't??

 

Perhaps one day they'll be producing "washer Springer" replicas and we'll be arguing about how awul the fake moustache looks, but I don't think they've quite achieved that status, just yet.

 

As far as their place in history, for pioneering the production of affordable leisure narrow boats, is concerned, Harborough Marine, Walton, Ernie Thomas, Dartline, Keays and so many others predate them by some time.

[Athy]

WJM, I guess that the transom (I hope that is the correct expression) stern allows more space for sitting above and storage below. They're also really ace for clouting the sides of bridge 'oles when the bridge is set just before a bend!

Carl, good points as ever; I was not doubting the veracity of Currers' description, simply wondering why a boat built by Springer should look so radically different from almost all which had gone before. Perhaps it was a misguided attempt to modernise the boat's lines - think back to the immensely popular and stylish Reliant Scimitar sports car, and the dismal droop-snooted failure (called something like the Reliant 25?) with which Reliant tried to replace it. I have heard of most of the makes of boat which you cite, and am fairly familiar with the "banana-bowed" Harborough Marines; were these already in production by the late '60s? I uspect that most of the earlier ones were not all-steel, having wooden or GRP superstructure, and I wonder what the price comparison with Springers of similar dimensions would be. perhaps that November 1984 magazine included adverts from other companies quoting their prices?

EDIT: The sports car was called the Reliant SS1.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Athy

[alan_fincher]

Just as a matter of interest, why would anyone claim that the boat they're trying to sell is a Springer, when it isn't??

 

Perhaps one day they'll be producing "washer Springer" replicas and we'll be arguing about how awul the fake moustache looks, but I don't think they've quite achieved that status, just yet.

 

As far as their place in history, for pioneering the production of affordable leisure narrow boats, is concerned, Harborough Marine, Walton, Ernie Thomas, Dartline, Keays and so many others predate them by some time.

As someone who studied such things at the time, trust me that Harborough Marine's boats were priced in an entirely different league to Springers. The price difference was massive, (you had to pay at least 150% the Springer cost for a vaguely equivalent HM boat).

 

And, to get in first, yes, I admit I'm only talking about the steel bottomed / GRP topped ones - I can't claim to know what they marketed the original (largely?) wooden ones for,but they certainly didn't sell in big enough numbers to have an impact on the market generally.

 

Springer pricing remained way below other steel boats for years. Firms like Rugby Boatbuilders started producing, (in my view), much prettier boats, at prices that severely undercut the likes of Harborough, but they still priced up a lot more expensive than a Springer.

 

Incidentally, will your "Springer revival" extend to new build "Springers" that are carefully faked to look like they are already overplated ? Will anybody be able to accurately replicate that distinctive ripple in roofs and cabin sides ? Will there be a big market for Ducati look alike engines, built in China.

 

I can see this being BIG.

[Athy]

As someone who studied such things at the time, trust me that Harborough Marine's boats were priced in an entirely different league to Springers. The price difference was massive, (you had to pay at least 150% the Springer cost for a vaguely equivalent HM boat).

 

And, to get in first, yes, I admit I'm only talking about the steel bottomed / GRP topped ones - I can't claim to know what they marketed the original (largely?) wooden ones for,but they certainly didn't sell in big enough numbers to have an impact on the market generally.

 

Springer pricing remained way below other steel boats for years. Firms like Rugby Boatbuilders started producing, (in my view), much prettier boats, at prices that severely undercut the likes of Harborough, but they still priced up a lot more expensive than a Springer.

 

Incidentally, will your "Springer revival" extend to new build "Springers" that are carefully faked to look like they are already overplated ? Will anybody be able to accurately replicate that distinctive ripple in roofs and cabin sides ? Will there be a big market for Ducati look alike engines, built in China.

 

I can see this being BIG.

There's many a true word spoken in jest, Alan. If a company could (profitably) market , say, a 40 foot simply constructed 4-berth family narrowboat at £30,000 they would sell like hot cakes. The last firm to attempt to reach this market was probably Hallmark; I suspect that paying for full-page full-colour advert in the boatimags was at least part of their financial undoing.

I think that these days a carefully-replicated Friday afternoon weld would come at extra cost.

[carlt]

There's many a true word spoken in jest, Alan. If a company could (profitably) market , say, a 40 foot simply constructed 4-berth family narrowboat at £30,000 they would sell like hot cakes. The last firm to attempt to reach this market was probably Hallmark; I suspect that paying for full-page full-colour advert in the boatimags was at least part of their financial undoing.

I think Hallmark's main problem was that they were selling cheap cr*p marketed as affordable but high quality.

 

Liverpool Boats at least sold budget priced boats with a reasonable level of fit out and quality.

[alan_fincher]

perhaps that November 1984 magazine included adverts from other companies quoting their prices?

The November 1984 "Narrow Boat" magazine is rather refreshingly light on adverts, compared to today's offerings, (and a cover price of just 85 pence!).

 

There is nothing to compare to directly, but new Springer prices are not massively higher than those of not particularly new boats for sale in the second-hand private ads. (See footnote).

 

Only pricing I can find of new builds is for Colecraft for 45 foot shells, (no engine,and apertures only for door and windows). £3,970 ex VAT for cruiser style, and £4,300 ex VAT for tug style. Clearly as a finished boat, these would come in massively more than a Springer.

 

In my experience, very few other builders openly published a price in a magazine. It was obviously in Springers strong interest to do so - to anybody who had ever enquired of Harborough, Fernie, Rugby, Braunston, Teddesley, (or many many others), what a finished boat would cost, the Springer suddenly became dead attractive. Why would you have paid attention to a Springer advert otherwise - the reason they sold so well was simply price.

 

 

Carl,

 

From Warwickshire Fly's advert in that magazine....

 

(Assuming you neither wanted butty "Pamela" at £15K, or butty "Iona/Belepheron" at £8K boat only, or £10K as a business with the Horse and tackle....)

 

CONNAH

30 foot wooden Market Harborough boat with SR2 air cooled Lister twin. In need of internal refit but all basic systems - water heater cooker, etc.

£3,650.

 

Frankly that sounds a lot of money to me, either compared to a new Springer, or to a new ColeCraft shell! (Has "Connah" survived ?).

[carlt]

CONNAH

30 foot wooden Market Harborough boat with SR2 air cooled Lister twin. In need of internal refit but all basic systems - water heater cooker, etc.

£3,650.

 

Frankly that sounds a lot of money to me, either compared to a new Springer, or to a new ColeCraft shell! (Has "Connah" survived ?).

Perhaps, unless you take into account the superior material it's built from .

 

Wooden boats were much less scary, back then and the purpose built leisure boats were considered luxurious, compared to the cut and shut working boats.

 

I believe I know where Connah is (I'd need to consult my lists) and iirc the hull is very sound but the tupperware and ply top has collapsed completely and is in the process of being replaced.

[Athy]

I wonder if information is available anywhere which would enable us to compare the quoted price of the 38 foot Springer with current value. They were selling them at £8,920 plus VAT, now I can't remember how much VAT was back then, perhaps 12%? So it would have cost the customer about £10,500. What was the average annual salary in 1984, and how much is it now? For the latter I would guess about £15,000, but it's only a guess. So the boat's price would be about two-thirds of a year's salary. What would the fraction have been back then?

Blimey, I'm expressing this poorly. Will anyone who understands what the fischbach I'm talking about please reply?

[NB Alnwick]

I wonder if information is available anywhere which would enable us to compare the quoted price of the 38 foot Springer with current value. They were selling them at £8,920 plus VAT, now I can't remember how much VAT was back then, perhaps 12%? So it would have cost the customer about £10,500. What was the average annual salary in 1984, and how much is it now? For the latter I would guess about £15,000, but it's only a guess. So the boat's price would be about two-thirds of a year's salary. What would the fraction have been back then?

Blimey, I'm expressing this poorly. Will anyone who understands what the fischbach I'm talking about please reply?

 

On the contrary - I think you are making a very valid point. A 38 foot Springer was an affordable boat that helped many families to enjoy boat ownership on the inland waterways, for the first time, and probably contributed to the growth in popularity of what we now see. I doubt if it would be possible to find any new boats out there today for the equivalent of the average salary let lone two thirds of it!

 

The 'average salary' today is reckoned to be around £22k per annum and I imagine it was near to half that in the mid 1980s - that would still have made the price of a new Springer affordable.

[Laurie Booth]

do you moore at sherborne wharf? We were there yhis year Gas st amazing Shops are great ...molly xxx

Yes I moor there and great shops etc.

[Chertsey]

On the contrary - I think you are making a very valid point. A 38 foot Springer was an affordable boat that helped many families to enjoy boat ownership on the inland waterways, for the first time, and probably contributed to the growth in popularity of what we now see. I doubt if it would be possible to find any new boats out there today for the equivalent of the average salary let lone two thirds of it!

 

The 'average salary' today is reckoned to be around £22k per annum and I imagine it was near to half that in the mid 1980s - that would still have made the price of a new Springer affordable.

It would indeed be interesting to see the actual figures of costs relative to disposable income. I know PB was very wont, on the basis of his memory of 70s and 80s wages, while reading back copies of Waterways World, to opine that boating is now no more expensive in real terms than it ever has been.

[NB Alnwick]

On the other hand, in 1968/9 I almost bought a 70ft butty off BWs tender list for £80 - that was about four times my weekly salary!

[alan_fincher]

It would indeed be interesting to see the actual figures of costs relative to disposable income. I know PB was very wont, on the basis of his memory of 70s and 80s wages, while reading back copies of Waterways World, to opine that boating is now no more expensive in real terms than it ever has been.

My opinion is (perhaps completely incorrectly), that the total costs of canal boat ownership have gone up out of all proportion to wages, inflation, RPI, or any other similar measure.

 

I guess the problem is partly comparing like with like.

 

Yes you can compare say what you have paid for Chertsey with what my brother paid for Bilster, (not a number I'm sure I ever knew), but even there the condition of the boats and work required may be radically different, (as will be the costs of getting done that which you can not do yourself).

 

But if you compare a brand new purpose built leisure boat, can you even compare something from Harbourough Marine, (then towards the top end of things), with even say something in the Liverpool Boat mould ?

 

The 1970s/1980s offering would be so basic, that few today would accept it, so much of the incremental cost may have come with the addition of showers, 240 volt electrics, including inverters, Ebermikunibasto thingies, granite worktops, etc, etc, etc.

 

I'd be interested in what people come up with, but looking at a 1974 "Canals Book" I can see that a full BW licence for our 50 foot boat, (which would have been considered pretty big, back then!), would have cost £23. In the current year that number has risen to £670 (rounded).

 

I make that a 29 fold increase in the cost of a BW licence for a 50 foot boat between 1974 and 2009, so 35 years.

 

Does anybody have a useful index that says what £670 now would have been worth in 1974 money ? Is it as little as £29 - that sounds low to me, but perhaps it isn't ?

 

Anyway even for our modest boat, (used heavily as it's justification!), costs are already at the top end of what we can really stretch to, unfortunately. I don't think I could afford to get involved again now, as a youngster with my first job, as I did back then.

[NB Alnwick]

>snip<

 

I'd be interested in what people come up with, but looking at a 1974 "Canals Book" I can see that a full BW licence for our 50 foot boat, (which would have been considered pretty big, back then!), would have cost £23. In the current year that number has risen to £670 (rounded).

 

I make that a 29 fold increase in the cost of a BW licence for a 50 foot boat between 1974 and 2009, so 35 years.

 

Does anybody have a useful index that says what £670 now would have been worth in 1974 money ? Is it as little as £29 - that sounds low to me, but perhaps it isn't ?

 

Anyway even for our modest boat, (used heavily as it's justification!), costs are already at the top end of what we can really stretch to, unfortunately. I don't think I could afford to get involved again now, as a youngster with my first job, as I did back then.

 

That is really scary - if it carries on, how many of us can afford to keep boating for another ten years?

[WJM]

Try the same ratio comparison with the price of houses! Yet somehow we continue to buy houses! Though now the average family sends the wife out to work to pay the mortgage!

[koukouvagia]

I wonder if information is available anywhere which would enable us to compare the quoted price of the 38 foot Springer with current value.

 

 

I've just been playing around on this website trying to work out whether our first boat – a 38' Springer was a bargain or not. We paid around £8000 in 1986. Depending which scale you use the present day equivalents are:

 

£17,564.88 using the retail price index

£16,952.99 using the GDP deflator

£23,910.36 using the average earnings

£27,411.15 using the per capita GDP

£29,663.11 using the share of GDP

 

So I reckon it was a cheap and cheerful and a Springer got us, like many others, onto the canals. I've often wondered what became of it – it was called Asphodel.

Three years later we swapped the Springer for a derelict josher complete with Seffle. I'm not sure whether that was such a bargain, but it's given us a great deal of pleasure over the years.

[alan_fincher]

I've just been playing around on this website trying to work out whether our first boat – a 38' Springer was a bargain or not.

Well if you take my figure of £23 for a 50 foot full BW licence in 1974, then that site, (which only goes up to 2008), gives a spread of modern day equivalents of anywhere between £179 and £393.

 

I don't therefore think it excessive to claim that a licence at £670 now costs more than double what you might have expected had it just gone up in line with most of these measures.

 

My gut feel is that this would apply across many of the costs we face as boaters.

 

Mind you, I sold my previous boat, part rebuilt, for (I think) £2,300 in around 1978. That translates to somewhere between (rounded) £10K and £19.5K. I doubt anyone would be daft enough to pay that for it now, if I still had it, in the same condition!