useing a pilot

[magpie patrick]

D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

 

Unless you've actually seen a document that states that this definition applies to the Severn Estuary/Bristol Channel than I'd question whether it really is a category D water. The MCA, whose categories run the other way (A being inland non-tidal not very deep, D being as big as it gets without actually being the sea) have Sharpness to Barry as Category D

Category D: Tidal rivers and estuaries where the significant wave height could not be expected to exceed 2.0 metres at any time.

 

Category C is not more than 1.2 metres, which means that the MCA expect the maximum wave height to be somewhere between 1.2 and 2.0 metres.

 

Which is why your insurer won't cover you without a pilot, your boat isn't suitable for those waters

[denboy]

anyone remember the guy that went out on the bristol channel a few years back without a pilot when he was told he needed one,,,,,boat went broadside on a channel marker and sank and they found the guy clinging to the channel buoy?

[colin stone]

but No.4 is a yachtmaster, so he knows better

 

I would have expected a Yachtmaster to know the answer or been able to work it out for himself. So much for the value of the YM qualification!!

[soldthehouse]

Has any one come a cross a 0.5m wave on a canal yet?

only when your on it

[sharpness]

Which is why your insurer won't cover you without a pilot, your boat isn't suitable for those waters

To be fair, having a pilot on board, wont make the boat any more or less suitable, but hopefully the pilot would probably say "no chance matey" He needs his life more than the £140? fee from Sharpness to Bristol.

Having held a Second Mates Foreign Going ticket many years ago, been through typhoons in the Indian Ocean, drifted broadside in the Bay of Biscay for 3 days on a 648ft long tanker with a buggered LP Turbine, theres no way I would go from Sharpness into the Bristol channel to make passage to Bristol in my lengthened skip as someone called it without a pilot, with or without insurance. They know better than me. (as do a lot of people!)

 

PS I understand you can make that trip as part of a "gaggle" with one pilot to cover a group of boats travelling together.

 

Steve

[Naughty Cal]

only when your on it

 

Too late, some one got in before you. And for the record it was in a "lake"

[Teadaemon]

I don't have anything much to add, except to say that shopping around for a different insurance broker may be worth a try, as you may find one that makes a different judgment of the relative risks involved.

 

I know of somebody who recently tried to get (third party only) insurance for their newly restored wooden Yare & Bure One Design - an open keelboat with a very large rig, designed over a century ago for the flat waters of the Norfolk & Suffolk Broads. Despite having no intention of taking the boat anywhere other than the Broads, no formal qualifications in sailing, and no mention of pilots, when he got his insurance certificate he discovered that he was covered for all inland waterways and coastal waters within 12 nautical miles of the UK (I think the premium was about £70 IIRC).

[howardang]

thanks for this info someone else has also recomended GJW.

 

 

as to the other replies chaps i was not asking for a asesment of my sailing abilitys.

 

i was asking what reason the insurance companys gave others for using a pilot.

as i have not been asked of my experiance before being giving the blanket statment that you will need a pilot.

 

as for those that may want to know as said, i have 4000miles experance sailing uk waters i have spent the last 4 months sailing around the uk and have sailed in all the waters mentioned i currently am the skipper of a 37' cat and have sailed in sea states to force 9

i hold a yacht master ticket.

i am happy to take the boat into these waters uninsured if need be.

but as i said to the broker if the boat catches fire in these waters with an unrelated fault i am not coverd.

As you say you are a holder of a Yacht Master's certificate (it's not a ticket by the way; you get those on buses) I would have thought you would know that a force 9 is not a sea state. The newspapers regularly feature stories about people who think they know best and then get into trouble when the proverbial hits the fan. Is the reluctance to use a pilot based on saving money or on a reluctance to admit that they might actually be speaking sense.

 

Many people on this thread have told you why they think your insurance company are asking for you to get the help and advice from a pilot and have urged you to take this advice. In the final analysis, however, the decision is down to you and your extensive seagoing experience and as part of good seamanship you should make the best decision you can based on common sense which, after all, is what good seamanship is all about. But of course you knew that already, I presume.

 

Howard

[soldthehouse]

Too late, some one got in before you. And for the record it was in a "lake"

 

If you can manage it on a lake you could do even better on a canal

[Naughty Cal]

If you can manage it on a lake you could do even better on a canal

 

Your turn next time

[carlt]

I don't have anything much to add, except to say that shopping around for a different insurance broker may be worth a try, as you may find one that makes a different judgment of the relative risks involved.

 

I know of somebody who recently tried to get (third party only) insurance for their newly restored wooden Yare & Bure One Design - an open keelboat with a very large rig, designed over a century ago for the flat waters of the Norfolk & Suffolk Broads. Despite having no intention of taking the boat anywhere other than the Broads, no formal qualifications in sailing, and no mention of pilots, when he got his insurance certificate he discovered that he was covered for all inland waterways and coastal waters within 12 nautical miles of the UK (I think the premium was about £70 IIRC).

If it was Basic Boat Liability Insurance you don't even have to specify what boat you wish to insure and, if the worst happens, it also includes wreck salvage.

[Tam & Di]

shopping around for a different insurance broker may be worth a try, as you may find one that makes a different judgment of the relative risks involved.

 

Not making any judgement on the OP's ability or his craft whatsoever, but I am broadly in favour of the "right" for any individual to do whatever he wants, as long as it does not adversely affect someone else. The problems with a crossing of e.g. the Severn estuary are:

 

a) it might affect others if the steerer was not sufficiently aware of the "rules of the road" (COLREGS) and ran someone down or got in the way so someone else could not avoid running him down. The OP's prior experience maybe makes that unlikely,

 

[that was supposed to be a "b", but the expression seems appropriate] the craft is not suitable for the conditions and someone has to come to his rescue. That's where insurance might be regarded as essential - is it "right" to do something iffey and depend upon a lifeboat service funded by voluntary donations rather than having to insure against such an event?

 

(actually I can see a lot of arguments against that, but still ..............)

Edited October 8, 2009 by Tam & Di

[soldthehouse]

Your turn next time

 

Lost for words

[carlt]

the craft is not suitable for the conditions and someone has to come to his rescue. That's where insurance might be regarded as essential - is it "right" to do something iffey and depend upon a lifeboat service funded by voluntary donations rather than having to insure against such an event?

 

(actually I can see a lot of arguments against that, but still ..............)

Regardles of your insurance situation, the RNLI never charge either you or your insurer, should they come to your rescue.

 

Likewise they will never claim salvage, if they take you under tow, despite having the right to.

 

If there is a professional tug present, though, the RNLI will not tow you.

 

I'm not sure about the Coastguard but, I suspect they'd drop you a bill.

[Teadaemon]

If it was Basic Boat Liability Insurance you don't even have to specify what boat you wish to insure and, if the worst happens, it also includes wreck salvage.

 

As I recall, he was asked what sort of boat he wished to insure (and explained in detail the size, construction and capabilities of his vessel when they (unsurprisingly) had no idea what a YBOD was), and was also asked where he intended to sail her (to which he replied 'the Norfolk & Suffolk Broads'). Unfortunately I can't remember who he used.

 

Getting back to the OP's problem, another option is to stick with the original insurers, but to negotiate with them or another company for separate insurance to cover any trips that aren't covered by the main policy, on a per-trip basis. This isn't a completely unfamiliar situation for marine insurers, as quite a few yachts have insurance to cover them for coastal cruising, but take out separate cover when required for occasional voyages further afield. Having said that, an insurer might only consider providing such cover to a boat that had been surveyed to determine it's suitability for such a voyage, which might well push the cost up significantly (especially as that would be well beyond the scope of a general condition or insurance survey on a canal boat, so an existing recent survey report is unlikely to satisfy them).

 

Incidentally, I do wonder if the attitude of insurance companies might be different depending on whether the vessel in question is described as "a 46'x12' wide beam canal boat" or "a 46'x12' steel hulled displacement motor cruiser with a single diesel engine and tiller steering".

[KenK]

Earlier this year I was at the end of the Sharpness canal looking out over the Severn estuary, beautiful sunny Sunday afternoon, not a breath of wind, tide fully in and the water with hardly a ripple. In the distance you could see the road bridge, it looked so easy. Then the tide turned, I have never seen water move so fast, it was like pulling the plug from a bath. I don't care how much experience one has unless you have a thorough knowledge of that area, you need someone that does. My insurance allows me to do it, doesn't mention needing a pilot but there is no way I'd do it without one.

 

Ken

[Graham Davis]

2 points.

Firstly, nearly all rescues in the Severn, and certainly above the confluence of the Wye, are dealt with by SEVERN AREA RESCUE ASSOC, who are a voluntary body like the RNLI. RNLI do not go up that far, as their nearest boats are either at Cardiff or Portishead(?). They admit the the Severn is a special case due to it's continually changing course, and they prefer to leave it to those who know the river. SARA are very efficient and do an excellent job FOR NOTHING. They are fully supported in their work by the RNLI.

 

Secondly, the tide can completely alter the course of the navigation channel above the old Severn Bridge at each tide. The Pilots know the signs and can "read" the river, so they know where they can and can't go. Even Captains of the few cargo vessels that use the Severn regularly ALWAYS use a pilot.

[mayalld]

2 points.

Firstly, nearly all rescues in the Severn, and certainly above the confluence of the Wye, are dealt with by SEVERN AREA RESCUE ASSOC, who are a voluntary body like the RNLI. RNLI do not go up that far, as their nearest boats are either at Cardiff or Portishead(?). They admit the the Severn is a special case due to it's continually changing course, and they prefer to leave it to those who know the river. SARA are very efficient and do an excellent job FOR NOTHING.

 

Is that the same SARA who went along the G&S with excessive gung-ho, and swamped a wooden boat causing it to sink?

[Graham Davis]

Well it's the only boat borne SARA I know of in the Severn Valley.

[mayalld]

Well it's the only boat borne SARA I know of in the Severn Valley.

 

Indeed so.

 

The incident Ireferred to happened some time ago, but there was a general consensus at the time that the organisation appeared to have a problem with some members who were rather too keen on zipping about in inflatables at excess speed when the occasion didn't demand it.

[Graham Davis]

I can't comment, just know that they do a very good job, often in very unpleasant situations.

[mayalld]

I can't comment, just know that they do a very good job, often in very unpleasant situations.

 

I would agree.

 

Unfortunately, such voluntary organisations always have a problem in that they attract people who want to play with the toys.

 

Extracted from an old uk.rec.waterways post;

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:42:12 +0100

Subject: Re: Shenanigans at Saul

 

> The G&S Canal has no locks but many swing bridges, which I presume

> were opened for the fire boat by the bridge keepers. This meant it

> had a clear run from Sharpness to the burning boat. So it was able to

> get up quite a speed. And quite a wash too. So much so that the

> aforementioned wooden boat is now a wreck resting on the bottom of

> the canal.

 

No, it managed to cause all that wash with no run-up at all. And it sank

the boat on the way back from the fire, not on the way there. Nobody minds

how quick a fire boat goes to a fire, but on the way back it travelled at a

wholly irresponsible speed. I was in a boat which was moored almost

opposite the boat that sank and we were rammed into the bank three

es - once by the fire boat on its way to the fire, once again by the

same boat two hours later on its way back, and for a third time from the

effect of the sinking boat a few minutes after the wash from the fire boat

had hit it and started to sink it.