Diesel Central Heating...

[The Anonymous Bard]

Not sure if this has been done... I did use the search facility but couldn't narrow it down enough.

 

As mentioned in previous posts we were planning on an oil powered range cooker to provide central heating and are now backing off from the idea a little.

 

One of our main reasons for originally choosing this were the very inconsistent comments from people running diesel powered systems (not range, conventional eg. Mikuni, Eberspacher etc.) and it's very interesting to read the comments on the various threads but for a snapshot view would it be worth doing a poll to find out people's experiences, particularly in liveaboard situations with details of the make, very reliable, wouldn't go near it again, etc?

 

This is probabley the one area where we're really reluctant to commit ourselves (especially me as i'm a bit prone to "nesh" even if I will sit all day on a freezing river bank with a fishing rod in my hands... ooops, confession!).

 

Not sure if it's just me but you hear ten stories of good experiences and maybe one bad but it's the bad that sticks in your mind, hence the overview?

Edited September 28, 2009 by The Anonymous Bard

[deletedaccount]

'nesh' lol. I only encountered that word last month. Nobody down south has heard of it.

 

Cool word though. It's a problem that needs a name imo.

 

I've only had mine a couple of months (the same time I've had the boat unsuprisingly) and it's worked both times I've actually turned it on. I'm getting a solid fuel put in to suplement it mainly because of the scare stories I've heard but also because it's nice to look, chucks out heat and is cheaper to run too. I think.

[andywatson]

'nesh' lol. I only encountered that word last month. Nobody down south has heard of it.

 

Cool word though. It's a problem that needs a name imo.

 

I've only had mine a couple of months (the same time I've had the boat unsuprisingly) and it's worked both times I've actually turned it on. I'm getting a solid fuel put in to suplement it mainly because of the scare stories I've heard but also because it's nice to look, chucks out heat and is cheaper to run too. I think.

 

Something like an Ebby (or Mikuni or Webasto) not unreasonably gets taken for granted when it performs as it should.

Given the high numbers around it will only take a small percentage of problems to give a significant number of complaints.

 

Mine has been completely reliable although I don't live aboard and hammer it.

I use "fuel set" diesel additive which will reduce it's chances of coking up and always have a high voltage on my batteries which (I assume) will help the glow plug get fully heated.

 

Amongst my neighbours I have not heard of any failures on Ebbies or Mikunis and only know of one Webasto that (only once) coked up. This was is in regular live aboard use.

[NBMike]

I have a Kabola which I installed in a bus while building my boat. It didn't keep the bus warm (No insulation) but I managed to keep the icicles out of bed room and I had 2 quilts on! The burner pot had to be stripped and cleaned out every few months. That may have been the way I set it up.

I checked out Nesh on google. Interesting word. Bit like a word I learned last year. 'Cuddywifter'

Mike

 

edited to add - I know cuddywifter is not like nesh. Its just that it was a new word to me!

Edited September 28, 2009 by NBMike

[Phil Ambrose]

Something like an Ebby (or Mikuni or Webasto) not unreasonably gets taken for granted when it performs as it should.

Given the high numbers around it will only take a small percentage of problems to give a significant number of complaints.

 

Mine has been completely reliable although I don't live aboard and hammer it.

I use "fuel set" diesel additive which will reduce it's chances of coking up and always have a high voltage on my batteries which (I assume) will help the glow plug get fully heated.

 

Amongst my neighbours I have not heard of any failures on Ebbies or Mikunis and only know of one Webasto that (only once) coked up. This was is in regular live aboard use.

Thing to remember is that all these heaters have electronics which though usually reliable can and do fail, they also have moving parts which will wear out. My Mikuni has had umpteen glow plugs ( well 2 or 3 per year ) also had 2 new glowplug bosses and a new electric motor plus various other minor bits and bobs. There is also the problem of heat loss in the blown air pipes and they use precious power. This is why we have know turned to a Glembring diesel heater as it has no moving parts and uses no power.

 

Phil

[nb Innisfree]

Our Mikuni MX60 has been reliable with no glowplug replacement needed but we have had continuous smoking probs which have not been resolved by replacing everything apart from the main body and water pump. Having said that it doesn't smoke now but no logical explanation why. We have found it to be a strange beast which apart from smoking seems to perform well but I get the impression that this sort of problem isn't not confined to Mikuni

Edited September 28, 2009 by nb Innisfree

[Nickhlx]

Our Mikuni MX60 has been reliable with no glowplug replacement needed but we have had continuous smoking probs which have not been resolved by replacing everything apart from the main body and water pump. Having said that it doesn't smoke now but no logical explanation why. We have found it to be a strange beast which apart from smoking seems to perform well but I get the impression that this sort of problem isn't not confined to Mikuni

 

Could it be the fuel composition varying I wonder ? - Is all canalside fuel the same or reliable ?

 

Seems to me that if you have changed everything else, it can only be the fuel, the air or the usage that's changing...

 

Nick

[Peter R]

In my opinion there is no problem with diesel central heating.

 

The small forced draft units were never designed to run all day for months on end powering central heating systems. They will do the job, but they're likely to need a lot of maintenance. I have one of this type of unit and so far (touch wood) it's never ailed a thing, but I only use the boat for holidays and weekend trips and also have a stove, so it doesn't get a lot of use.

 

If you want to run a diesel boiler all day every day, get one of the natural drafted units (such as lockgate, kabola etc) that basically work on the same principle as domestic oil fired boilers and ARE designed to do that.

 

As with most things it's just a matter of using things for what they were designed to do.

[Aunty_Rinum]

I lived aboard for seven years with an Ebersbacher and they are superb.

[deletedaccount]

How much diesel do they use?

 

I'm trying to work out how much my webasto is going to cost to run.

[Naughty Cal]

Our small unit uses a quarter of a litre an hour on full. This is if it is running continuosly. In reality it is never on full constantly so uses less. This is a small (2 outlet) blown air Webasto heater so dont know about the more complex systems. It does the job though and keeps us toasty warm

[nb Innisfree]

Could it be the fuel composition varying I wonder ? - Is all canalside fuel the same or reliable ?

 

Seems to me that if you have changed everything else, it can only be the fuel, the air or the usage that's changing...

 

Nick

 

Yes that is logical but over a period of over 4 years we have had lots of different fuel suppliers with no logical connection to performance. Air? possibly but I can't see it's quality changing enough to make any significant difference and usage has remained the same over that period. One thing that did change was a change of fuel additive which may have contributed, we now use Fortron and the smoking has gone but it still runs with a smell of paraffin. Oddly it has always run perfectly at half setting which precludes fuel quality problem anyway, I initially thought voltage drop may be slowing the air pump down while the digital fuel pump stays the same speed, but switching on shore power and speeding up the air didn't make any difference. Tested for voltage drop and no prob there even twinned cable supply temporarily to test it. Even broke the seals on the control box and played with fuel pump and air pump speeds. Mikuni said it was most likely coked up and therefore restricting air at full setting but this proved not to be the case. The clue I think is the perfect running at half speed.

[Smelly]

Considering the proliferation of solid fuel, and the absence of complaints other than "old and knackered" might sweeping up some ash be preferable?

[Nine of Hearts]

Considering the proliferation of solid fuel, and the absence of complaints other than "old and knackered" might sweeping up some ash be preferable?

 

With the benefit of hindsight, I'm not sure I'd fit a Webasto in favour of a back boiler. It's does a sterling job of warming up the boat, but it's also meant to provide hot water which it just doesn't. Well, it does if you're prepared to run it for an hour and a half. Best way to get piping hot water for me is to run the engine, which makes me cringe at the inefficiency.

[Strads]

We have installed a heritage Uno which support's 5 rads in a 70 ft boat and its generally toasty - needing only to run for 2 or 3 hours in the evening to allow us to cook, it also does the hot water at the same time and ditto heating, and then radiates heat for the rest of the evening.

 

We may need to have it come on for a burst in the mornings to take the chill out as the winter draws in, but its based on standard central heating boilers (bosch worcester) so my installer tells me (needed to commision correctly) and that I shouldnt expect any major issues going forward..

 

These work on either diesel or heating oil (or mixtures of both) - so should prove ok on running costs we hope, but still working on that side..

 

I'm sure each types have the merits / detractors, but sound research on asking the suitability / life hours / running costs must be worth the effort to select the best type for your needs...

 

good luck

[The Anonymous Bard]

We have installed a heritage Uno which support's 5 rads in a 70 ft boat and its generally toasty - needing only to run for 2 or 3 hours in the evening to allow us to cook, it also does the hot water at the same time and ditto heating, and then radiates heat for the rest of the evening.

 

We may need to have it come on for a burst in the mornings to take the chill out as the winter draws in, but its based on standard central heating boilers (bosch worcester) so my installer tells me (needed to commision correctly) and that I shouldnt expect any major issues going forward..

 

These work on either diesel or heating oil (or mixtures of both) - so should prove ok on running costs we hope, but still working on that side..

 

I'm sure each types have the merits / detractors, but sound research on asking the suitability / life hours / running costs must be worth the effort to select the best type for your needs...

 

good luck

 

Great info... thanks and please keep us posted on the Heritage as ours will also be a 70' boat with five radiators planned in.

 

We discussed it again last night and I can't draw myself away from the Heritage (that's how bad this decision has got me!), especially after reading other diesel heating threads and the thought that for a liveaboard situation where it might get hammered occasionally it seems to be the only option that is actually designed to run 24/7 as far as i'm aware and not so sensitive to the fuel it burns, voltage drop etc.

 

We are looking at the Compact model and will still be running a solid fuel stove as we like them so much.

 

By chance we stumbled on the William Piper, Crick show winner this year being fitted out just below Stoke Bruerne in April and he very kindly downed tools to show us around and he had put an Uno in there which looked great... do you also have the "heat dump" vented out somewhere?

 

In this case it was ducted out into the engine room.

 

Thanks again.

Edited September 30, 2009 by The Anonymous Bard

[richardf]

I work in the range cooker industry and know the guys at Heritage; they were telling me the other day that sales of their ranges have grown on the back of problems being encountered with other types of diesel heaters. I think the Heritage is a great product and they are a very straight company in my opinion.

[andywatson]

Dickinson marine diesel cookers, when installed with the water heating coil, would seem to be a good alternative to the large and expensive domestic range cookers discussed so far.

They are designed for marine use and appear to be of a more modest size, heat output and cost.

 

Has anyone got direct experience?

 

 

EDIT

Ditto the Kabola CH/HW boiler.

Edited September 30, 2009 by andywatson

[Roger Gunkel]

I've come in on this fairly late and may inspire comments of 'oh no not again' and similar, but, I assume you are seeking advice on diesel central heating for a permanent live aboard system.

 

You will find that a large number of replies will be from non liveaboards, many of whom have had no major problems with diesel heating systems. If you are contemplating diesel as your main heating, which you anticipate using up to 24 hours a day in the depths of winter, you will find the experiences of those who have done this, to be often considerably less encouraging in a very large number of instances. The heaters/boilers such as Eberspacher, Webasto, Mikumi and other pressurised water circulating units have shown time and again that they are not up to the rigours of a full time domestic heating system. The manufacturers also quietly discourage 24/7 useage. There are a number of reasons for this, most of which have been covered comprehensively in past threads.

 

Basically Red diesel has been proven to be responsible for a faster build up of deposits leading to earlier faults or failure. Low sulphur Red is an improvement, but not widely available on the waterways. The current diesel pricing also means that more people are putting white road diesel in their tanks, which causes less of a problem. Even with white diesel, 24/7 running is not encouraged by the manufacturers and halving the servicing hours is often suggested and is a wise precaution. This would mean a likely service interval of about 1000 hours, which for 24/7 would equate to about ever 6/7 weeks. If a qualified service agent is used, that could mean a cost of £2-300 each time. In my own case, with 3 new Eberspachers in 2 years running on red diesel, the maximum running time achieved without breakdown was just over 700 hours. While using these heaters, it is also neccessary to have a constant heat radiating source, such as a towel rail or radiator even when just heating water in summer. This is to prevent system overheating.

 

As regards fuel useage, again there will be varying estimates, but my own use during winter months, running the system for 18 hours per day, with 6 hours nightly shutdown, averaged 200 litres per month. This was virtually identical with all 3 heaters, 2x 5kw heaters and 1x 10kw. A given ammount of fuel will only produce a maximum ammount of calorific value, so it would be reasonable to assume that any diesel heater would use a similar ammount of fuel under the same circumstances. I our case, we had 4 radiators in a modern well insulated 57' widebeam. Others that I know in similar circumstances report broadly similar results as have a number of forum liveaboards.

 

The reliability of diesel heaters that work on a similar principle to domestic systems would appear to be better, but it would be reasonable to expect fuel consumption to be similar for a given heat output.

 

The greater majority of 24/7 liveaboards that I know, use solid fuel as their main heating with diesel as a backup. Cost, reliability and low maintenance is frequently cited as the main reasons and I can certainly vouch for the fact that since installing our solid fuel stove 3 years ago, we have had no heating problems whatsoever and our costs have dropped dramatically. Our stove is normally lit sometime in October and stays alight until April. If of course you don't require this constant level of heat or are away from the boat for most of the day, then a diesel or gas heating system may suit you, but step warily if you need continuous heat.

 

All of this is purely my own opinion based on my own findings over the last five years, but hope it all helps.

 

Roger

[Hieronymus Bosh]

Brilliant reply Roger... we don't have a boat yet, but its fantastic to see someone "cut to the chase". Very informative!

[The Anonymous Bard]

since installing our solid fuel stove 3 years ago, we have had no heating problems whatsoever and our costs have dropped dramatically. Our stove is normally lit sometime in October and stays alight until April. If of course you don't require this constant level of heat or are away from the boat for most of the day, then a diesel or gas heating system may suit you, but step warily if you need continuous heat.

 

Roger

 

Thanks for such a considered and in depth reply Roger, as always the informastion is very helpful and the comments you make about the suitability (or not) of units for 24/7 use are what is pushing us back towards the Heritage range.

 

The other thought of course is running the heating off of a back boiler on the solid fuel stove as this appears to be a fairly simple and reliable system, the only concern being the capacity and how many radiators could be effectively rum off of this?

[Roger Gunkel]

The other thought of course is running the heating off of a back boiler on the solid fuel stove as this appears to be a fairly simple and reliable system, the only concern being the capacity and how many radiators could be effectively rum off of this?

 

I think that Mike on Blackrose runs his rads off a back boiler on a widebeam that is bigger than mine. I think I'm right in saying that his system uses convection, but I may be wrong. I'm sure he will offer some helpful advice. If he doesn't pick up on the thread, try to PM him.

 

Roger

[The Anonymous Bard]

No doubt that this may change at some point but...

 

This is the way I think we're going with this at this stage:

 

Solid fuel stove providing main heat source = pretty much fail safe, adequate for the vast majority of time and reasonabley cost effective... and we like them.

 

Heritage (or other) range cooker providing central heating when required and hot water in a reliable system designed to run 24/7 but operating well within it's capacity and not being hammered = programmable to come on for anticipated use for a couple of hours early morning to heat the boat and water before going to work, say 4-6am then bank up the solid fuel for the day and return after range has been programmed to kick in again to heat boat and water just before getting home at night, say 4-6pm and then banking up the solid fuel again for the evening.

 

We also like the idea of just running the range heating for a couple of hours in Summer if it drops a bit chilly but doesn't really warrant lighting the solid fuel... other plusses (we think?) are relatively silent running, reasonabley low fuel consumption given the times we anticipate using the heating and the cooking capability as well... also like the idea of self suffiencey if we're away from the boat for any longer periods of time as it will just kick in and out on the programmed timer and prevent any damp building up.

 

What we don't like?

 

High initial cost... but deducting the cost of other central heating system. less frequent servicing, glow plug replacement etc and all the things I won't be throwing down the boat in frustration and breaking when it's not breaking down then maybe it will also pay us back in the long run.

 

And... if all else fails there's always the local Indian and a good Ceylon, works for me everytime!

[jelunga]

Oh good. Someone using something which I am considering. Please tell, do you have to have the oven / hob bit on to use the boiler section or is this totally separate? The Heritage web site does not make this clear.

Secondly, they are not cheap. Do you feel it is money well spent?

 

Ta

 

Keith

 

 

 

We have installed a heritage Uno which support's 5 rads in a 70 ft boat and its generally toasty - needing only to run for 2 or 3 hours in the evening to allow us to cook, it also does the hot water at the same time and ditto heating, and then radiates heat for the rest of the evening.

 

We may need to have it come on for a burst in the mornings to take the chill out as the winter draws in, but its based on standard central heating boilers (bosch worcester) so my installer tells me (needed to commision correctly) and that I shouldnt expect any major issues going forward..

 

These work on either diesel or heating oil (or mixtures of both) - so should prove ok on running costs we hope, but still working on that side..

 

I'm sure each types have the merits / detractors, but sound research on asking the suitability / life hours / running costs must be worth the effort to select the best type for your needs...

 

good luck