Mastervolt Alternator

[Gibbo]

H'mmmmm he was an electrical specialist from Mastervolt.

 

So he says. He really is talking crap.

 

If an alternator regulator really stayed in bulk when it shouldn't then the battery voltage would continue to rise, for ever, it would never settle. By thursday the batteries would be at a few hundred volts.

 

Gibbo

Edited September 24, 2009 by Gibbo

[WotEver]

So he says. He really is talking crap.

 

I think that the sentence "It's been like that since I installed it 5 years ago. " might shed some light on this. 5 years with the same batteries? How old were they 5 years ago?

 

I think there might be a clue here somewhere ;-)

[paddy r]

"So he says. He really is talking crap."

 

 

 

Gibbo

 

 

Mastervolt there's a Surprise

[Midnight]

I think that the sentence "It's been like that since I installed it 5 years ago. " might shed some light on this. 5 years with the same batteries? How old were they 5 years ago?

 

I installed the Mastervolt kit (charger, alternator, MICC invertor) 5 years ago when fitting out the boat. I initially installed two new 270AH Elecsols, Two summer cruises ago I thought the problem might be the batteries so I changed them for three 260AH Squadron gels.

 

The worry is I now have is two Mastervolt specialists from two different Mastervolt supply companies (both well regarded and well known) telling me the same thing i.e. The charge rate shouldn't stay in bulk for more than a couple of hours before going into Absorption.

 

To clarify. when the batteries are around 70% the charge stage is Absorption when they drop below that, the charge stage is bulk but it's normal for the bulk light (1 light on the Alpa-pro) to stay on for hours and hours. In this year's example the charge stage was in bulk for 3 days (36 hours) before the alternatior burnt out again. The MICC showed the batteries being charged at around 12.43 volts and about 15amps during those 3 days.

[Nickhlx]

I installed the Mastervolt kit (charger, alternator, MICC invertor) 5 years ago when fitting out the boat. I initially installed two new 270AH Elecsols, Two summer cruises ago I thought the problem might be the batteries so I changed them for three 260AH Squadron gels.

 

The worry is I now have is two Mastervolt specialists from two different Mastervolt supply companies (both well regarded and well known) telling me the same thing i.e. The charge rate shouldn't stay in bulk for more than a couple of hours before going into Absorption.

 

To clarify. when the batteries are around 70% the charge stage is Absorption when they drop below that, the charge stage is bulk but it's normal for the bulk light (1 light on the Alpa-pro) to stay on for hours and hours. In this year's example the charge stage was in bulk for 3 days (36 hours) before the alternatior burnt out again. The MICC showed the batteries being charged at around 12.43 volts and about 15amps during those 3 days.

 

 

That's about 185 watts - the batteries must be very hot ....

 

Are you confident you can rely on what the meters are telling you or might there be there some drain from the batteries at 184 watts thus preventing any effective charge reaching the batteries ?

 

Nick

Edited September 24, 2009 by Nickhlx

[Gibbo]

I installed the Mastervolt kit (charger, alternator, MICC invertor) 5 years ago when fitting out the boat. I initially installed two new 270AH Elecsols, Two summer cruises ago I thought the problem might be the batteries so I changed them for three 260AH Squadron gels.

 

The worry is I now have is two Mastervolt specialists from two different Mastervolt supply companies (both well regarded and well known) telling me the same thing i.e. The charge rate shouldn't stay in bulk for more than a couple of hours before going into Absorption.

 

To clarify. when the batteries are around 70% the charge stage is Absorption when they drop below that, the charge stage is bulk but it's normal for the bulk light (1 light on the Alpa-pro) to stay on for hours and hours. In this year's example the charge stage was in bulk for 3 days (36 hours) before the alternatior burnt out again. The MICC showed the batteries being charged at around 12.43 volts and about 15amps during those 3 days.

 

Ahhh but this is now a different story!

 

There is a difference between "being in bulk" and "the alpha pro says it's in bulk" - it might be lying! But you definitely said "it stays in bulk".

 

To say "It shouldn't stay in bulk for more than x hours" makes assumptions about other things.

 

Assume you have a 100 amp alternator, the batteries are at 60%, the engine is running and there is a 100 amp load switched on. That alternator (and controller) will (correctly) stay in bulk for ever. The next stage (acceptance/absorption) will never happen. That is not a fault. That is doing what it is supposed to do. So for someone to say "It should not stay in bulk for more than a couple of hours" means one of two things...............

 

1. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

2. He was gievn a different story to that we were given.

 

So let's try to get to the bottom of this, with the correct details.

 

Let's start at the beginning. What is the voltage when it "stays in bulk" but you think it shouldn't be doing?

[Guest z1100r]

I have read an incredible amount of stuiff on this electrickery stuff. When I wired up our boat I thought of the people that were going to use it. Do they want fancy electronic gizmo panels everywhere...no I dont think so...in fact I know it would of had a bad effect and induced unnecessary panic.

Do I want people that borrow the boat to not have a clue what its all about. Be bamboozled by all the readouts and switches. No, I know whats going to happen, I'm just going to get called all the time.

 

I thought 'Is all this stuff reliable, and how long does it last in a basically damp cold environment'.

 

But the real cruncher was how much it all costs.....How much money do i want to spend to make a some pumps and a few ight bulbs work. Holy crap.

 

So I basically started with the simple 12volt wiring diagram in Graham Booths Narrow boat builders book....I deviated very little.

DEAD SIMPLE >>DEAD RELIABLE>>DEAD CHEAP>>DEAD EASY TO DO.

 

I have the std 2 car alternators..I got one a bit bigger than the other for cabin batteries and thats it.

The system works perfect...has done for 7 or 8 years...for 240v I shoved a diesel genny in the engine hole.

 

I have 2 voltmeters on my engine panel and 2 lights...one for engine alt. one for cabin alt....They both level out at 13.5 volts after a few hours cruise.

Thats all people have to look out for....just like a car...if the red light comes on charging has gone a knacker. Fan belt snapped or something. Theres one in that draw - or call me.

 

So my question is...What iare the advantages of all this expensive rubbish...I dont know anyone thats got it that knows how it all works ..all it does is cost them money.

[madcat]

My set up is dead simple but I confess to buying a sterling "magic box" which gives me a couple of lights to look at if somebody else is steering and Im fed up with scenery.Think the sterling does improve the charging from a bog standard A127 but then I found out from Arnot that there is another way to get battery sensed for a lot less squids.Mr sterlings magic box has been working quietly away for 9 or so years so Iam quite satisfied with it.

Big exspensive alternator,would I like one? Course I would but the problems of fitting it and driving it are not worth the bother to charge 2x 110 ah batteries that run a couple of lights and a wireless plus the seperate 110 ah start battery. Now if I had a more modern boat with more equipment and more batteries and grater demand for electricary then I would probably buy one.

Given that I should get out more I probably wont be building a power station in the hold anytime soon allthough I have a few suitable diesel engines that could be set to work

[Gibbo]

Well I'll go through your post and try to shed some light on it bit by bit.

 

I have read an incredible amount of stuiff on this electrickery stuff. When I wired up our boat I thought of the people that were going to use it. Do they want fancy electronic gizmo panels everywhere...no I dont think so...in fact I know it would of had a bad effect and induced unnecessary panic.

Do I want people that borrow the boat to not have a clue what its all about. Be bamboozled by all the readouts and switches. No, I know whats going to happen, I'm just going to get called all the time.

 

That's not really an argument against modern techniques and equipment. It's more an argument regarding staying living in caves and catching food with a wooden club.

 

I thought 'Is all this stuff reliable, and how long does it last in a basically damp cold environment'.

 

But the real cruncher was how much it all costs.....How much money do i want to spend to make a some pumps and a few ight bulbs work. Holy crap.

 

An alternative view is "How much diesel do you want to burn charging up your batteries?". A lot of this "modern rubbish" can reduce that. Or perhaps "Other people want more than a few pumps and light bulbs". Note that whether or not you think they should want them is irrelevant. They might want them.

 

So I basically started with the simple 12volt wiring diagram in Graham Booths Narrow boat builders book....I deviated very little.

DEAD SIMPLE >>DEAD RELIABLE>>DEAD CHEAP>>DEAD EASY TO DO.

 

You forgot to add "DEAD CRAP"

 

I have the std 2 car alternators..I got one a bit bigger than the other for cabin batteries and thats it. The system works perfect

 

No disrespect intended but are you qualified to make the statement that it "works perfect"? I know for a fact I could get it to work better, faster and more efficiently by adding some of this "modern rubbish". And yet it could still be improved upon, so even then it wouldn't "works perfect". So if it could be improved upon (which it can) and still not be "perfect" then your system most certainly cannot, by definition, "works perfect" now.

 

I have 2 voltmeters on my engine panel and 2 lights...one for engine alt. one for cabin alt....They both level out at 13.5 volts after a few hours cruise.

 

Well there's your first evidence that your system doesn't "works perfect". 13.5 volts is too low. It will charge the batteries. But nowhere near as fast and as well as it could do if you added some of this "modern rubbish".

 

So my question is...What iare the advantages of all this expensive rubbish...I dont know anyone thats got it that knows how it all works ..all it does is cost them money.

 

Well your system could certainly be improved:-

 

Faster charging. If you argue that you don't need faster charging that doesn't mean that others don't.

Better charging. Your batteries will last longer. If you argue that your batteries already last ages then they would last even longer with some of this "expensive rubbish".

Less fuel used for charging. If you argue that you don't run the engine just for charging that doesn't mean that other people don't. So to them, reduced engine running time (just to charge the batteries) is important. And therefore this "expensive rubbish" is not that to them. It is a worthwhile investment.

 

Because a basic, primitive, crap system is perfectly OK for you don't make the assumption that other people all like to live in caves use their system in the same way.

 

Gibbo

[tomsk]

Well I'll go through your post and try to shed some light on it bit by bit.

 

 

 

That's not really an argument against modern techniques and equipment. It's more an argument regarding staying living in caves and catching food with a wooden club.

 

 

 

An alternative view is "How much diesel do you want to burn charging up your batteries?". A lot of this "modern rubbish" can reduce that. Or perhaps "Other people want more than a few pumps and light bulbs". Note that whether or not you think they should want them is irrelevant. They might want them.

 

 

 

You forgot to add "DEAD CRAP"

 

 

 

No disrespect intended but are you qualified to make the statement that it "works perfect"? I know for a fact I could get it to work better, faster and more efficiently by adding some of this "modern rubbish". And yet it could still be improved upon, so even then it wouldn't "works perfect". So if it could be improved upon (which it can) and still not be "perfect" then your system most certainly cannot, by definition, "works perfect" now.

 

 

 

Well there's your first evidence that your system doesn't "works perfect". 13.5 volts is too low. It will charge the batteries. But nowhere near as fast and as well as it could do if you added some of this "modern rubbish".

 

 

 

Well your system could certainly be improved:-

 

Faster charging. If you argue that you don't need faster charging that doesn't mean that others don't.

Better charging. Your batteries will last longer. If you argue that your batteries already last ages then they would last even longer with some of this "expensive rubbish".

Less fuel used for charging. If you argue that you don't run the engine just for charging that doesn't mean that other people don't. So to them, reduced engine running time (just to charge the batteries) is important. And therefore this "expensive rubbish" is not that to them. It is a worthwhile investment.

 

Because a basic, primitive, crap system is perfectly OK for you don't make the assumption that other people all like to live in caves use their system in the same way.

 

Gibbo

 

 

Fair, though a little hair-splitty and demeaning in tone. Where do you reach the tipping point where all the electrical smartarsery starts costing far more than the added gain in charging rates et al? Horses for courses surely. Some (most?) people dont need Windscale on their boat...... BTW are you sure your not Chris W? Your posts sometimes have the same high-pitched whine of the self-righteous zealot.... What ever did become of him? A most amusing little man.

[Gibbo]

Fair, though a little hair-splitty and demeaning in tone. Where do you reach the tipping point where all the electrical smartarsery starts costing far more than the added gain in charging rates et al?

 

That's where experience comes in. In knowing when to start and when to stop. A very basic, primitive, system can be massively improved for very little cost. As the system gets better and better it becomes more and more expensive to make even tiny improvements. The system detailed that I responded to could be hugely improved for a few tens of pounds and the results would be astounding without adding any complexity whatsoever. But of course, it's all just "expensive rubbish".

 

The rest of your post gets the response it deserves.

[Guest]

That's where experience comes in. In knowing when to start and when to stop. A very basic, primitive, system can be massively improved for very little cost. As the system gets better and better it becomes more and more expensive to make even tiny improvements. The system detailed that I responded to could be hugely improved for a few tens of pounds and the results would be astounding without adding any complexity whatsoever. But of course, it's all just "expensive rubbish".

 

The rest of your post gets the response it deserves.

Decent sized properly connected cable and relay cured mine, the effect was amazing. No need for battery boilers. Even my batteries (dare I say it) are of the sealed type and perform well (yuasa np100 bought secondhand soon into their third year on our boat). Always 14.39V maximum from the standard alternator. I do find that a charge from the Sterling charger now and again has some benefit.

[tomsk]

That's where experience comes in. In knowing when to start and when to stop. A very basic, primitive, system can be massively improved for very little cost. As the system gets better and better it becomes more and more expensive to make even tiny improvements. The system detailed that I responded to could be hugely improved for a few tens of pounds and the results would be astounding without adding any complexity whatsoever. But of course, it's all just "expensive rubbish".The rest of your post gets the response it deserves.

 

 

I don't think I used that phrase, and I still dont think you have given a straight answer to fairly straightforward question. At what point does it the electrical version of law of diminishing returns make it a fools errand to chase those last few .001 volts, given a well set up basic charging system, regular cruising and 'good' batteries?

[Gibbo]

I don't think I used that phrase,

 

No. Someone else did.

 

and I still dont think you have given a straight answer to fairly straightforward question. At what point does it the electrical version of law of diminishing returns make it a fools errand to chase those last few .001 volts, given a well set up basic charging system, regular cruising and 'good' batteries?

 

I gave the best, straightest and clearest answer that is possible. You expect an answer to an extremely complex question in a few sentences?

 

Just because a question is straightforward doesn't mean the answer is.

 

Tell me, (a straight answer please) how does one know which shares to invest in?

[Guest z1100r]

What. ...oh I see... I said rubbish....sorry I got fed up with saying stuff.

 

So tell me what all this extra mysterious equipment is that warrants all this superfast charging...and tell me how the average person knows its all actually happening anyway.

 

All I ever hear is moans and groans about how it all lets them down occasionally, and how they're left clueless on how to fix it.

 

Yes I have a 12volt LCD DVD freeview telly and radio...

Yes the Mrs runs hairdryers and straighteners and vacuum cleaners and god knows what else. But I'm realistic about that....they need 240v (hence generator)....and i dont care what you say about inverters and controllers....they eat batteries. My diesel genny uses next to sod all. Not only that its charging the batteries whilst it doing it.

 

When the engines running the voltmeters say 14.5 volts...they say 13.5 when its not. Not straight after- but when its settled down a bit.

 

To me you really blew it when you suggested a Simple system was crap.....thats the last thing you should be saying - if your in the trade.

 

I dont live on the boat myself...but people have for 6 months of the year...and with no problems whatsoever.

 

So i told you what I have...I told you why....and I asked what extra gain I would get from expensive IMO unecessary gadgetry.

 

What did you say.....my system is crap....lots of people need modern electronics but no explanation why...and I could charge up my batteries quicker....well thats always been a bad thing in my old school book.

 

So really all i need it for is to charge up my batteries quicker - and with posibly a bit more charge...?

Edited September 24, 2009 by z1100r

[tomsk]

No. Someone else did.

 

 

 

I gave the best, straightest and clearest answer that is possible. You expect an answer to an extremely complex question in a few sentences?

 

Just because a question is straightforward doesn't mean the answer is.

 

Tell me, (a straight answer please) how does one know which shares to invest in?

 

 

Disingenuous question, but 'study the market trends' would be a good start, allied with a historical knowlege of those trends. You could go so deep with your methodology as to end up 'blind' to the market and 'miss the moment' so a little perspective thrown in would not go amiss to temper the number one requirement, decisiveness. Now back to the question please.

[Gibbo]

Decent sized properly connected cable and relay cured mine, the effect was amazing.

 

Absolutely. That's the first thing to address and the first thing I recommend. Adding a battery boiler to a system before putting those bits right is madness. You can get the same (often better) improvement by putting right what is already there.

 

Once that is done you can look at it again and see if some "expensive rubbish" will improve things further, and if so by how much. Quite often it won't. Or not by enough to justify the expense. But sometimes it will. I'm the first to avoid "expensive rubbish" and especially the first to avoid recommending it but to dismiss it all as such is just silly.

 

Disingenuous question, but 'study the market trends' would be a good start, allied with a historical knowlege of those trends. You could go so deep with your methodology as to end up 'blind' to the market and 'miss the moment' so a little perspective thrown in would not go amiss to temper the number one requirement, decisiveness. Now back to the question please.

 

That doesn't tell me specifically which ones to invest in. Which is a fair analogy of your question.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Gibbo

[tomsk]

Absolutely. That's the first thing to address and the first thing I recommend. Adding a battery boiler to a system before putting those bits right is madness. You can get the same (often better) improvement by putting right what is already there.

 

Once that is done you can look at it again and see if some "expensive rubbish" will improve things further, and if so by how much. Quite often it won't. Or not by enough to justify the expense. But sometimes it will. I'm the first to avoid "expensive rubbish" and especially the first to avoid recommending it but to dismiss it all as such is just silly.

 

 

 

That doesn't tell me specifically which ones to invest in. Which is a fair analogy of your question.

 

 

That decision is yours and yours alone.

[Guest]

I met a very successful business man recently. I asked him what had been the secret of his success. He replied "Good decisions." I asked him how had he learned to make good decisions and he replied "experience." I then asked him how he had gained the necessary experience, and he said, "Bad decisions."

[Gibbo]

So tell me what all this extra mysterious equipment is that warrants all this superfast charging...and tell me how the average person knows its all actually happening anyway

 

Because they have some "expensive rubbish" installed that monitors the system and tells them whether it is.

 

QED

[tomsk]

Because they have some "expensive rubbish" installed that monitors the system and tells them whether it is.

 

QED

 

 

LOL

[Midnight]

Ahhh but this is now a different story!....

 

...Let's start at the beginning. What is the voltage when it "stays in bulk" but you think it shouldn't be doing?

 

12.43 volts about 18amps at 1400rpm

 

On the Friday morning the MICC said the batteries were 26%

The charge rate stayed in bulk for some of the 12 hour cruise, except when the ignition was accidently switched off for some unknown time.

charge 12.43 Volts

 

Saturday morning MICC said batteries 30%

charge 12.43 Volts for another 10 hours

 

Sunday morning MICC said 30%

charge in bulk 12.43 volts rising to 12.9volts by 4pm (11 hour day)

 

Thinking about it now I stopped at White Bear Marina and left the batteries on charge via the Mastervolt charger. When I got back the following Thursday the MICC still said 30% (Could it be the batteries are at fault?).

 

Fridays cruise of about 12 hours took the batteries up to 60% (according to MICC) I looked at the charge rate and it had risen to around 12.9volts and about 28amps at 1600rpm.

 

The following day was when the alternator REG ON fuse blew 3 times then it stopped charging altogether and I could smell smouldering wire which seemed to be coming from the alternator.

 

The wire from alternator to the insulated block stud is quite heavy (guessing 15mm - 20mm) as is the earth wire to the block. The wire from the block stud to the batteries is a bit heavier still. The brown REG ON wire (with 2amp fuse) is about 6mm connected to the block stud and switched by a relay to keep it as short as possible.

 

Some people here suggest I have too many batteries for this alternator but I had the same problems when I only had two batteries.

 

I only bought the Mastervolt alternator cos I wanted to fit a battery manager. Beta told me the engine wasn't wired for one. My supplier told me the Cicce (?) alternator fiited as standard couldn't cope and suggested the Alpha-pro was the dog's bollocks.

 

Not being very up on electronics I didn't know alternators had a battery capacity, least I've never seen anything in the books I have to suugest any relationship between battery amp hours and alternator output amps.

 

My old mate Jim had a Lucas 50amp alternator charging an 80amp start battery and 3 110ah leisure batteries for years without a hitch. He did fit a Sterling battery manager but soon after his boat sank - no connection :-)

Edited September 24, 2009 by Midnight

[Gibbo]

The problem is one of the following:-

 

1. The alternator is faulty.

2. The alternator is not being spun fast enough (but this is doubtful with such very low voltages).

3. The alternator doesn't have an internal regulator and the Alpha Pro has packed in.

4. The cabling between the alternator and the batteries has a very high resistance somewhere in it.

 

My gut feeling 1. or 2.

 

At those "charge" voltages you are basically doing next to nothing.

[Arnot]

Hi

 

My Mastervolt alternator just failed for the second time in 5 holiday cruises. It's done less than 1800 hours so there's obviously something wrong with my set up.

 

Beta 43

3 x 240ah gel batteries (previously 2 x 250ah Elecsols)

Alpha Pro 95amp alternator and 3 stage regulator

 

Just after the warranty expired (2 years and a month) it burned out a diode and cost me £200 to repair. Then this year, mid holiday it just didn't seem to charge the batteries very well, then it had a good day taking the batteries from 30% to 60% in 12 hours before blowing a fuse the following day. The day after it just stopped working altogether although it didn't blow the fuse this time.

 

Can anyone help?

Where are you based?

 

I am in Stone, Staffordshire and can come and have a quick look (FOC) if you are anywhere near...

 

Regards

 

Arnot

Edited September 24, 2009 by Arnot

[Midnight]

Where are you based?

 

I am in Stone, Staffordshire and can come and have a quick look (FOC) if you are anywhere near...

 

Regards

 

Arnot

 

Thanks Arnot really appreciate that, but I'm back at Ripon now. Ironically I passed through Stone this trip although my batteries were charging up to 100% at the time. In fact because of the stop/starting I turned the Absorption period down a liitle.