Mastervolt Alternator

[nb Innisfree]

The problem is one of the following:-

 

1. The alternator is faulty.

2. The alternator is not being spun fast enough (but this is doubtful with such very low voltages).

3. The alternator doesn't have an internal regulator and the Alpha Pro has packed in.

4. The cabling between the alternator and the batteries has a very high resistance somewhere in it.

 

My gut feeling 1. or 2.

 

At those "charge" voltages you are basically doing next to nothing.

 

Just an idea but could it be an obscure heavy discharge occurring somewhere? would put a heavy load on alt and drag voltage down.

[Midnight]

The problem is one of the following:-

 

1. The alternator is faulty.

2. The alternator is not being spun fast enough (but this is doubtful with such very low voltages).

3. The alternator doesn't have an internal regulator and the Alpha Pro has packed in.

4. The cabling between the alternator and the batteries has a very high resistance somewhere in it.

 

My gut feeling 1. or 2.

 

At those "charge" voltages you are basically doing next to nothing.

 

Must say Gibbo I appreciate all your input here.

A couple of points

 

1/ The alternator is definitely faulty - now! Last time it failed it was suggested the cause was the red wire breaking off from the terminal. Ampower replaced one diode at a cost of around £200. If I remember right the charge rate was all over the place when it happened.

 

2/ I sometimes wonder if the pully Ampower had made for me is slightly too big. I had to increae the standard Beta belt size by about 15mm - I'm sure the mathmaticians here will be able to work out the gear raitio.

 

Talking of belts will the polyvee belt I have cope OK with a big (150amps?) Leece Neville?

[Midnight]

Just an idea but could it be an obscure heavy discharge occurring somewhere? would put a heavy load on alt and drag voltage down.

 

 

Thanks for the thought but the MICC shows normal discharge (depending what's switched on) when the engine is stopped.

[nb Innisfree]

Thanks for the thought but the MICC shows normal discharge (depending what's switched on) when the engine is stopped.

 

Yes but discharge could occur when engine is running when you are unable to monitor all the time, perhaps an intermittent discharge?

 

Bit of a long shot I know

 

Reference your belt, if poly vee proves inadequate I run my Leece Neville 24v 100A on twin v belts, absolutely reliable, hardly any adjustment req

[Arnot]

12.43 volts about 18amps at 1400rpm

 

On the Friday morning the MICC said the batteries were 26%

The charge rate stayed in bulk for some of the 12 hour cruise, except when the ignition was accidently switched off for some unknown time.

charge 12.43 Volts

 

Saturday morning MICC said batteries 30%

charge 12.43 Volts for another 10 hours

 

Sunday morning MICC said 30%

charge in bulk 12.43 volts rising to 12.9volts by 4pm (11 hour day)

 

Thinking about it now I stopped at White Bear Marina and left the batteries on charge via the Mastervolt charger. When I got back the following Thursday the MICC still said 30% (Could it be the batteries are at fault?).

 

Fridays cruise of about 12 hours took the batteries up to 60% (according to MICC) I looked at the charge rate and it had risen to around 12.9volts and about 28amps at 1600rpm.

 

The following day was when the alternator REG ON fuse blew 3 times then it stopped charging altogether and I could smell smouldering wire which seemed to be coming from the alternator.

 

The wire from alternator to the insulated block stud is quite heavy (guessing 15mm - 20mm) as is the earth wire to the block. The wire from the block stud to the batteries is a bit heavier still. The brown REG ON wire (with 2amp fuse) is about 6mm connected to the block stud and switched by a relay to keep it as short as possible.

 

Some people here suggest I have too many batteries for this alternator but I had the same problems when I only had two batteries.

 

I only bought the Mastervolt alternator cos I wanted to fit a battery manager. Beta told me the engine wasn't wired for one. My supplier told me the Cicce (?) alternator fiited as standard couldn't cope and suggested the Alpha-pro was the dog's bollocks.

 

Not being very up on electronics I didn't know alternators had a battery capacity, least I've never seen anything in the books I have to suugest any relationship between battery amp hours and alternator output amps.

 

My old mate Jim had a Lucas 50amp alternator charging an 80amp start battery and 3 110ah leisure batteries for years without a hitch. He did fit a Sterling battery manager but soon after his boat sank - no connection :-)

Reading this, I am sure that you have a problem with the charging system somewhere but I think that it will only be really be bottomed by someone with the necessary experience, knowledge and instrumentation actually looking at the system.

 

It is an unfortunate fact of life that most boaters have to rely on engine manufacturers and boatyards or boat builders for advice. This is often not particularly good, not that they are malicious or incompetent, more that they have limited experience. I spend a lot of every week looking at charging systems that are inappropriate, badly designed, badly installed, faulty or any combination of these and it is a bit frustrating when it really isn't difficult or even expensive to get it right.

 

When specifying, designing and installing narrow boat charging systems, the first things I want to know are how the owner will use the boat. Liveaboards have different requirements from (genuine) continual cruisers. EOG and linear moorers without a shoreline have different requirements from those in marinas. Vintage engines in engine rooms have different requirements from modern diesels in cruisers and semi trads. etc. etc.

 

Gibbo refers (rather unhelpfully IMHO) to "battery boilers" and expensive rubbish and to a certain extent he has a point, I certainly share his frustration over the vast number of boaters who have such systems unecessarily. a lot of the time the only thing they increase is the unreliability. There are any number of overly priced and overly sophisticated commercial products promoted for the solution to all battery charging problems but most, it seems to me, are considerably over hyped. The conversion of most standard car derived alternators to a specification more appropriate to charging batteries in a boat is usually quite simple and does not require any form of digital readout, parameter control or a blue LED for that matter.

 

Alternators don't have a battery capacity per-se, but it is fair to say that there are combinations of factors (battery capacity being but one) that will shorten the life of an alternator significantly. Mainly as a consequence of the alternator having to run too hot. As an example, your old mate Jim may well have had an alternator that was designed to only achieve it's maximum output at quite high revs (alternator revs that is) and as a consequence only started generating a lot of heat when there was a correspondingly high fan cooling effect.

 

A lot of modern alternators are designed to produce high output at low speeds and whilst this is beneficial in recharging batteries quickly, when it is regularly done for long periods of time as it is in boats, it does tend to lead to elevated temperatures and early failure. Also most alternators are designed for vehicle use where there is almost always a plentiful supply of fresh cooling air, again unlike narrow boats. If you look at the alternator mounting on a lot of luxury cars that tend to have high electrical loadings, there is often a ducting system to direct fresh air to the alternator.

 

Regards

 

Arnot

[Guest z1100r]

Well, I'm not convinced...and I'm probably more of a techy than Gibbo is....maybe its just his technique of persuasion...maybe its just this thing that boaters with lots of cash NEED all the high tech expensive electrical STUFF. Well I dont...to a large degree my boat is simpler and reguires alot less intelligent electronics than my car does, not that I've got a car now, but I've had some, and I've had some beauties, none of them had an Adverc...but they all had Aircon, pre cabin heaters, fancy radios, heated screens, loads of pumps, fans, lights (twice as powerful as the boats), oh and of course wipers, CD changers, mobile phones,fag lighters, ignition systems, fuel injection systems..blah blah.......but their power supply is not good enough to drive my dinnette light.....haw haw. Come off it...

Edited September 24, 2009 by z1100r

[WotEver]

I'm probably more of a techy than Gibbo is....

 

Methinks you don't know Gibbo very well.

[Guest z1100r]

No ...not at all well...maybe thats a good thing.... Seriously though , I know where he's comming from and yes I do know my car analogy is a tad irrelevant.

I did say however that I had considered who would be using the boat and what clever electronics would mean to them. Also the necessitty for reliability and if not simple fault diagnosis. I mean your talking about people that have trouble changing a light bulb.

Haing done it that way and found it very effective and totally adequate.....I then come across lots of tales of woe from those that adopted the "The eletrical guysays we need this" approach. Alot of people remember know absolutely sod all about any of it...turning the light switch on must happen 100% successfully

[WotEver]

You may want to take gander around this site (page chosen at random) http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html

[Gibbo]

Methinks you don't know Gibbo very well.

 

It made me giggle too

 

Gibbo refers (rather unhelpfully IMHO) to "battery boilers" and expensive rubbish....................

 

That's a bit unfair!

 

"Battery Boilers" is the affectionate term alternator controllers have earned on this forum. By others, not me.

 

"Expensive rubbish" is, again, another's term that I simply borrowed. In sarcasm.

[Midnight]

Reading this, I am sure that you have a problem with the charging system somewhere but I think that it will only be really be bottomed by someone with the necessary experience, knowledge and instrumentation actually looking at the system.

 

Yes I sure have - I have managed to find the Mastervolt electrics chap who supplied the kit. He no longer works for Ampower but has agreed to come over to Ripon and check out the system for me.

 

It is an unfortunate fact of life that most boaters have to rely on engine manufacturers and boatyards or boat builders for advice. w boats.

 

It's trying to work out who knows and who just wants to sell the latest 'expensive rubbish'

 

BTW Z1100R I aint 'got lots of cash' and don't 'NEED a lot of high end electrical STUFF'. Thank you but your comments where about as helpful as a Mastervolt Diode.

[nb Innisfree]

Well, I'm not convinced...and I'm probably more of a techy than Gibbo is....maybe its just his technique of persuasion...maybe its just this thing that boaters with lots of cash NEED all the high tech expensive electrical STUFF. Well I dont...to a large degree my boat is simpler and reguires alot less intelligent electronics than my car does, not that I've got a car now, but I've had some, and I've had some beauties, none of them had an Adverc...but they all had Aircon, pre cabin heaters, fancy radios, heated screens, loads of pumps, fans, lights (twice as powerful as the boats), oh and of course wipers, CD changers, mobile phones,fag lighters, ignition systems, fuel injection systems..blah blah.......but their power supply is not good enough to drive my dinnette light.....haw haw. Come off it...

 

Try running that lot with the engine off

[Guest z1100r]

BTW Z1100R I aint 'got lots of cash' and don't 'NEED a lot of high end electrical STUFF'. Thank you but your comments where about as helpful as a Mastervolt Diode.

 

 

Well you just dont know how sorry I am about that...!!!

 

I just went to Flyblows site and had a bit of read......I'm a little bit lost....it appears modern alternators remove any need for any of it especially if you have 2 of them". So whats his beef with me.....he's designing electronics for long defunt old craft with old diode splitters single alternators and small battery banks.....Well thats not me.

[Gibbo]

Well you just dont know how sorry I am about that...!!!

 

I just went to Flyblows site and had a bit of read......I'm a little bit lost....it appears modern alternators remove any need for any of it especially if you have 2 of them". So whats his beef with me.....he's designing electronics for long defunt old craft with old diode splitters single alternators and small battery banks.....Well thats not me.

 

You have quite clearly got very serious (and now publicly demonstrated) reading/comprehension problems.

[Guest z1100r]

What... so you dont do stuff for that.....????

Rememberf it was a bit of a quick read...I mean pages and pages and pages of tiny text telling me how to charge my battery up gets a bit much in the end..even for me...

Have a read of your own page the one that WOTEVER posted a link to....and tell me what i mis-comprehended.

[WotEver]

Have a read of your own page the one that WOTEVER posted a link to....and tell me what i mis-comprehended.

 

The very last sentence?

[Gibbo]

What... so you dont do stuff for that.....????

 

Nope

 

Rememberf it was a bit of a quick read...I mean pages and pages and pages of tiny text telling me how to charge my battery up gets a bit much in the end..even for me...

 

And there are many people who don't know how to do it. Until they read it. Then they do. Educated. Job done.

 

Have a read of your own page the one that WOTEVER posted a link to....and tell me what i mis-comprehended.

 

Well for a start you made up your mind that I try to sell "expensive rubbish" such as alternator controllers. I don't sell them. The webpage actually explains why most of the time they are not needed on modern engines. But your comprehension problems clearly didn't allow you to spot that. So you got that wrong for a start. Here's a small list................

 

...and I'm probably more of a techy than Gibbo is....

 

Wrong.

 

....he's designing electronics for long defunt old craft with old diode splitters single alternators and small battery banks....

 

Wrong

 

Do you want some more?

 

Your biggest problem is that you have no experience in the field. You see what happens on your boat, you think about what you want your boat systems to achieve. You know what limited electrical equipment you want to use. It's called "wearning blinkers". If you had any worthwhile experience in the field you would realise that the world of boating and boating equipment and systems doesn't stop with your boat and your systems.

 

There are many other boaters who want faster charging, bigger battery banks, more efficient charging, heavier loads, more equipment. But because you only see your boat you thnk they are all wrong, they don't need it and anyone who makes equipment to allow them to use the system in a way that is different from your boat is simply selling "expensive rubbish".

 

Open your eyes, take your blinkers off and accept that other people don't all operate their boat the same way that you do.

[WotEver]

It's trying to work out who knows and who just wants to sell the latest 'expensive rubbish'

 

One thing you'll find out about Gibbo is that he NEVER tries to sell you any of his kit on this forum. Like most members, if he can help a member to remotely diagnose a problem he will do but as Arnot stated (I think it was Arnot) your problem sounds like it needs a site visit.

 

Tony

[tomsk]

Seeing as Gibbo doesnt want to answer the question I asked yesterday, I will have a go. I would estimate that 75% of boats whos alternator/s are adequately rated, batteries are healthy and wiring loom is not compromised AND do a modicum of cruising have no need for any of this kit. Another large percentage would benefit from fault finding and getting whatever the fault is in there existing system rectified rather than bolt on a load of expensive additional equipment to tell you that you have a relatively simple fault.

 

Seeing as Gibbo doesnt want to answer the question I asked yesterday, I will have a go. I would estimate that 75% of boats whos alternator/s are adequately rated, batteries are healthy and wiring loom is not compromised AND do a modicum of cruising have no need for any of this kit. Another large percentage would benefit from fault finding and getting whatever the fault is in there existing system rectified rather than bolt on a load of expensive additional equipment to tell you that you have a relatively simple fault.

 

 

As Gibbo points out the market is usually driven by people wanting 'MORE' of whatever there is.... In my experience this trait is not just restricted to batteries and charging systems.

[Gibbo]

Seeing as Gibbo doesnt want to answer the question I asked yesterday, I will have a go. I would estimate that 75% of boats whos alternator/s are adequately rated, batteries are healthy and wiring loom is not compromised AND do a modicum of cruising have no need for any of this kit. Another large percentage would benefit from fault finding and getting whatever the fault is in there existing system rectified rather than bolt on a load of expensive additional equipment to tell you that you have a relatively simple fault.

 

And you've just demonstrated why the question you asked simply cannot be answered. Because your attempt at an answer is completely wrong.

[Chris Pink]

One thing you'll find out about Gibbo

 

...another thing you'll find out he has quite a following.

 

 

To any engineering problem there are a range of solutions and so for every different narrow boat electrical specification there will be a range of solutions that in some real sense are always a compromise of efficiency, reliability and affordability and a number of other factors.

 

 

 

 

Because your attempt at an answer is completely wrong.

 

disagree. I think Tomsk sums it up well.

 

First get what you have working as well as it is capable, then look at the next level of overall improvement in your system given the parameters of what you are trying to achieve.

[WotEver]

I think it might aid this discussion if both of the 'detractors of anything extra' were to define what they mean by "expensive".

 

A tenner is expensive to some folk, but if you can spend say a hundred quid and thereby give your batteries an extra couple of years, then that hundred becomes cheap by comparison. Many of the improvements that can be made to the average boat's charging system wouldn't even cost say 30 squids but would increase battery life immensely.

 

Tony

[Gibbo]

disagree. I think Tomsk sums it up well.

 

First get what you have working as well as it is capable, then look at the next level of overall improvement in your system given the parameters of what you are trying to achieve.

 

But the actual question was............

 

Where do you reach the tipping point where all the electrical smartarsery starts costing far more than the added gain in charging rates et al?

 

And it hasn't been answered. Because it can't. It can be answered for one particular boat following a full analysis of the entire system but there is simply no way a global answer can be given to cover lots of different boats. Which is what Tomsk asked for.

[Chris Pink]

But the actual question was............

 

 

 

And it hasn't been answered. Because it can't. It can be answered for one particular boat following a full analysis of the entire system but there is simply no way a global answer can be given to cover lots of different boats. Which is what Tomsk asked for.

 

maybe we are just agreeing in our different ways, because I see only a cost-benefit graph that you place yourself on. The only truly cost effective solution to electrical charging is...

 

don't do it.

 

Mind, going to have to compare candles vs alternator cost in that scenario.

[Guest z1100r]

Well for a start you made up your mind that I try to sell "expensive rubbish"

 

 

:lol: I made up my mind about something.......and it wasn't just that you sell ' expensive rubbish'.

Having then seen your site and read alot of your stuff I've now made my mind up about something else.

 

You on the other hand....made a very typical mistake that all people of your nature appear to make.....you went on the defensive.....and all because of one little phrase that wasn't directed at you in the first place.....'expensive rubbish'. You start off straight away attempting to talk down and belittle someone you know absolutely sod all about...your cocksure your more knowledgeable....so in you go feet first. That technique is not good you may want to get a 'smart guage' on that.

 

Am I the only person that can read that page....oh I cant be arsed....its all there in red and white.

 

If alternator controllers are often useless other than to compensate for the voltage drop across split charge diodes (which have many other problems) then why not simply do without the alternator controller and diode (the controller in particular can be very time consuming to fit - not to mention invalidating the alternator warranty) and install a much better system in the first place?

 

i.e. one that is cheaper, easier to install, more reliable, doesn't affect factory warranties and doesn't suffer the many problems inherent with the other system. This better system being a standard modern alternator and a SmartBank.

 

If thats not selling a replacement for an alternator controller and diode splitter...then I dont know what is.

 

If you dont want the SmartBank fiit 2 alternators...ding ding..wakey wakey

Edited September 25, 2009 by z1100r