Mastervolt Alternator

[Midnight]

Hi

 

My Mastervolt alternator just failed for the second time in 5 holiday cruises. It's done less than 1800 hours so there's obviously something wrong with my set up.

 

Beta 43

3 x 240ah gel batteries (previously 2 x 250ah Elecsols)

Alpha Pro 95amp alternator and 3 stage regulator

 

Just after the warranty expired (2 years and a month) it burned out a diode and cost me £200 to repair. Then this year, mid holiday it just didn't seem to charge the batteries very well, then it had a good day taking the batteries from 30% to 60% in 12 hours before blowing a fuse the following day. The day after it just stopped working altogether although it didn't blow the fuse this time.

 

Can anyone help?

[paddy r]

We have a Mastervolt genny,will never let another piece of Mastervolt sh*t on our boat again.Over priced and thay promise the world and coudn't deliver Pizza.

[Arnot]

Without having a look at the installation it's difficult to be definite but here's my best guess...

 

I am guessing that your engine is in a cruiser stern or semi trad and well buried in a fairly small engine hole. The beta 43's seem to run fairly hot and keep the engine hole hot as well.

 

In addition, the battery bank you have will be capable of keeing the alternator at maximum output for quite a long time and this in itself will tend to generate a lot of heat in the alternator, especialy with a 3 stage regulator. I suspect that the premature failure of the alternator will be due to having to operate for extended periods at elevated temperatures. This may well have been compounded by the gradual ingress of oil mist and the resultant collection of dust from the air being drawn through the alternator by it's own fan. Running the battery bank down to 30% would prabably have been the last straw. Under these circumstances I would have thought that 1800 hours was probably pretty good, I dont think an A127 would manage anything like this.

 

My suggestion is to replace the alternator with one more appropriate to the size and nature of your battery bank, ideally 5C or slightly larger i.e. 150A or larger. You may have to change the drive pulley arrangement and possibly even consider ducted cooling for it.

 

If you are anywhere near Stone, give me a PM and I will try to come and have a look see.

 

Regards

 

Arnot

[paddy r]

To summarise its not fit for purpose!

[Nickhlx]

Our Beta 43 ( purchased early 2009) came with a 45 amp engine start alternator and a 175 amp domestic alternator... I have it driving 4 x Trojan T125 6volt 240 Ah batteries arranged for 12 volts 480 amp hours. I am a bit concerned that, on morning start-up, I have seen the alternator producing 200 amps at approx 70% battery SOC, although that reduces quite quickly to around 140 amps ( minutes) and continues to drop as the bank charge comes up. It brings the bank up to a displayed 100% state of charge in approx 3 hours - from previous posts about how long it takes to charge batteries, I need to do some more independent tests to convince myself that its telling the truth.... but the initial results are very pleasing. Either way I am not too concerned at the moment, as there is a small-sized solar panel (80 watt) which helps "float the bank" and usually it is on shore power when moored.

 

I commented on the apparently "too high a charge rate" ( 200 amps from a 175 amp alternator ?) to the boat electrical guy and he said the Beta alternators were conservatively rated ... So I am optimistic... - Any comments from "people in the know" on here ?

 

 

What I was coming round to say is that the standard Beta 43 (larger) alternator is now a 175 amp item, and may just slot in, and at reasonable cost....

 

Nick

Edited September 16, 2009 by Nickhlx

[Arnot]

To summarise its not fit for purpose!

more likely not being used for the purpose for which it was intended...

 

Or for that matter in the way that was anticipated.

 

I actually quite like the Mastervolt kit and use quite a few of thier inverters and combi's with great success. Where they (and for that matter most of the other marine electronics companies) fall short is by including alternators in their range just to be able to offer a "complete solution". My experience is that they none of them truly understand alternators and all run into prolems.

 

They correctly identify that the majority of marine engine suppliers include and alternator that whilst probably fiarly reliable, is not really all that good at charging batteries. They then also correctly identify that an appropriate regulation system would improve matters significantly. This is where the problems start.

 

The majority of boat builders are not good at advanced electrical systems and DIY builders even more sub optimal so trying to sell a regulation system to be grafted in to an existing alternator is a recipe for disaster so the answer is to bundle the regulation system with an alternator. It gets round the problem and increases profits - simples!

 

Then the marketing department get hold of the product and promote it beyond it's realistic abilites - enter new problem stage left!

 

Regards

 

Arnot

 

Our Beta 43 ( purchased early 2009) came with a 45 amp engine start alternator and a 175 amp domestic alternator... I have it driving 4 x Trojan T125 6volt 240 Ah batteries arranged for 12 volts 480 amp hours. I am a bit concerned that, on morning start-up, I have seen the alternator producing 200 amps at approx 70% battery SOC, although that reduces quite quickly to around 140 amps ( minutes) and continues to drop as the bank charge comes up. It brings the bank up to a displayed 100% state of charge in approx 3 hours - from previous posts about how long it takes to charge batteries, I need to do some more independent tests to convince myself that its telling the truth.... but the initial results are very pleasing. Either way I am not too concerned at the moment, as there is a small-sized solar panel (80 watt) which helps "float the bank" and usually it is on shore power when moored.

 

I commented on the apparently "too high a charge rate" ( 200 amps from a 175 amp alternator ?) to the boat electrical guy and he said the Beta alternators were conservatively rated ... So I am optimistic... - Any comments from "people in the know" on here ?

 

 

What I was coming round to say is that the standard Beta 43 (larger) alternator is now a 175 amp item, and may just slot in, and at reasonable cost....

 

Nick

It all sounds about right and should work well and reliably.

 

The later Beta 43's have an improved drive pulley system which has been beefed up to transmit the approximately 8HP mechanical input to the alternator to generate this sort of electrical output. The early ones had a normal "V" belt drive that doesn't like going beyond about 90A, at 200A your engine would eat the fanbelt faster than you could get your breakfast down

 

Regards

 

Arnot

[Nickhlx]

It all sounds about right and should work well and reliably.

 

The later Beta 43's have an improved drive pulley system which has been beefed up to transmit the approximately 8HP mechanical input to the alternator to generate this sort of electrical output. The early ones had a normal "V" belt drive that doesn't like going beyond about 90A, at 200A your engine would eat the fanbelt faster than you could get your breakfast down

 

Regards

 

Arnot

 

I have come to respect the boatbuilder electrical expertise and attention to detail which is very pleasing, although he doesn't quite comprehend the RF bits that I asked him to instal, but thats no problem...

 

The belt on the main alternator is quite a beefy-looking flat belt with mutliple V's on it, and when the batteries are calling for charge, even at tickover it is producing a high current - raising revs above 1500 produces no more output so I guess that the gearing is possibly more than even 3:1.

 

The engine has done some 90 hours now with no sign of fanbelt wear....

 

That is assuming the readings I am being told from the Victron equivalent of the Smartgauge are correct !!

 

Thanks for the reply,

 

Nick

Edited September 16, 2009 by Nickhlx

[PaddingtonBear]

This question is oft repeated and it seems with oft repeated answers by those who 'know'.I know absolutely nothing about not very much BUT what I do know is that i have a CEN alternator which has been faultless for years, it faithfully charges both battery banks very quickly (although not as quickly as I thought:)) with little fuss and with out diodes, special this and that, moody battery boilers and other such flim-flamery. Why do I never see them mentioned as one of the possible solutions to some folks woes. Comments in plain English please although I am going to have fun with Listers over the next two days with a man who certainly will know:)

[Midnight]

Thanks Guys

 

The engine is in a trad back with a lot of space above (was thinking of lowering the floor) but the alternator always runs very hot.

 

I also believe it's 'not fit for purpose' but was supplied as part of a Mastervolt package (charger, invertor, MICC and Alternator, and original Elecsol batteries) by Ampower Services who seem to know what they are about.

 

Certainly I will not send it back again for more expensive repairs so will replace it with something up to the job.

 

I will investigate the 5C and CEN alternators and battery management. Any thoughts on the Adverc?

 

Cheers

[Arnot]

I will investigate the 5C and CEN alternators and battery management. Any thoughts on the Adverc?

I would look at the Leece Neville alternators as well, the larger ones are intended for use in conditions of elevated temperature for prolonged periods.

 

There is nothing wrong with the Adverc system applied to the appropriate alternator but IMHO the main benefit is confers is the battery sensing and this is often available as standard in modern alternators and if not can be added reasonably cheaply.

 

Regards

 

Arnot

[Gibbo]

There are three possible ways to zap a diode in an alternator:-

 

1. Over current. This should not ever happen in a properly designed alternator as they should be able to handle more current than the alternator can deliver.

2. Over voltage. This can only happen if the output of the alternator becomes disconnected from the batteries (dodgy isolator etc)

3. Over temperature. Various ways this can happen.

 

It might be worth considering getting the alternator fixed one last time (I've never had any problems with Mastervolt alternators and I've fitted quite a few of them - I think they're a good bit of kit) and fitting an external controller that has alternator temp sensing such as the Sterling thus removing this possible cause of the problem.

 

Gibbo

[Midnight]

It might be worth considering getting the alternator fixed one last time (I've never had any problems with Mastervolt alternators and I've fitted quite a few of them - I think they're a good bit of kit) and fitting an external controller that has alternator temp sensing such as the Sterling thus removing this possible cause of the problem.

 

Thanks Gibbo.

 

Whilst it would be the cheaper option, I've pretty much lost faith in Mastervolt and have been told that the 95amp Alt isn't up to the job of charging my three 240AH batteries. The system I have has the Alpha Pro and battery temperature sensors.

 

Interestingly, you mentioned over voltage can happen if the output of the alternator becomes disconnected from the batteries. One day towards the end of our holiday, after my better half had been at the tiller for about 11 hours (Huddersfield canal retreat) I noticed that she had inadvertantly turned the ignition key off (large bum syndrome) Whilst this would have killed the live feed to the Alternator, could it have caused the burn-out 3 days later?

Edited September 18, 2009 by Midnight

[Gibbo]

Thanks Gibbo.

 

Whilst it would be the cheaper option, I've pretty much lost faith in Mastervolt and have been told that the 95amp Alt isn't up to the job of charging my three 240AH batteries. The system I have has the Alpha Pro and battery temperature sensors.

 

Interestingly, you mentioned over voltage can happen if the output of the alternator becomes disconnected from the batteries. One day towards the end of our holiday, after my better half had been at the tiller for about 11 hours (Huddersfield canal retreat) I noticed that she had inadvertantly turned the ignition key off (large bum syndrome) Whilst this would have killed the live feed to the Alternator, could it have caused the burn-out 3 days later?

 

The battery temp sensors allow the reg to adjust the charge voltage according to the battery temperature (obviously).

 

The alternator temp sensor (which I suggested - you may have missed that) reduces the charge current if the alternator gets too hot in order to protect the alternator. I don't think the Alpha Pro has that feature. The Sterling does.

 

But if you've lost faith in it now you'll probably never be comfortable with it!

 

And no, turning the ignition off cannot cause that damage (unless the boat is horribly oddly wired).

 

Gibbo

[Midnight]

The alternator temp sensor (which I suggested - you may have missed that) reduces the charge current if the alternator gets too hot in order to protect the alternator. I don't think the Alpha Pro has that feature. The Sterling does.

 

 

OK I understand that now. Yes I think I will look at the Sterling as an alternative regulator and a larger alternator Maybe Leece-Neville.

 

I also spotted Adverc offer some alternator/battery management packages but I will check to see if the Adverc has temp sensing.

[Arnot]

OK I understand that now. Yes I think I will look at the Sterling as an alternative regulator and a larger alternator Maybe Leece-Neville.

 

I also spotted Adverc offer some alternator/battery management packages but I will check to see if the Adverc has temp sensing.

You might find it interesting to have a look at this alternator.

 

It is capable of over 160A,

has battery sensing built in as standard so you won't need any outboard regulation system such as sterling or adverc,

is designed to operate at high temperatures,

has a high output at low speed

and is brushless exitation so it should last the course.

 

The only problem is that it is quite large and it may be difficult to install it on a modern engine.

 

Regards

 

Arnot

Edited September 20, 2009 by Arnot

[paulcatchpole]

You might find it interesting to have a look at this alternator.

 

It is capable of over 160A,

has battery sensing built in as standard so you won't need any outboard regulation system such as sterling or adverc,

is designed to operate at high temperatures,

has a high output at low speed

and is brushless exitation so it should last the course.

 

The only problem is that it is quite large and it may be difficult to install it on a modern engine.

 

Regards

 

Arnot

 

Go on then, put me out of my misery - how much do they cost, and where can you find them in the UK?

 

PC

[madcat]

I had to look but as Iam stuck with standard Lister pulley which wouldnt drive that I will leave my cash under the cushion in my basket with the headless rat and the pigeon in kit form !!!!.

[PaddingtonBear]

I ask again what is wrong with CEN(Niehoff) alternators? Not much it would appear as they are standard issue in most US military applications as well as US Coastguard. Whilst I can understand Carl's objections, not everyone is so pure in thought and deed.

[Arnot]

Go on then, put me out of my misery - how much do they cost, and where can you find them in the UK?

 

PC

The bad news;

They have to be special ordered from the US and cost about £500. If you want to know how, PM me.

They are very large and very heavy so mounting can be a problem.

 

The good news; They are the nearest to the perfect narrow boat alternator you will get and should outlat the average engine. (IMHO)

 

Regards

 

Arnot

 

I ask again what is wrong with CEN(Niehoff) alternators? Not much it would appear as they are standard issue in most US military applications as well as US Coastguard. Whilst I can understand Carl's objections, not everyone is so pure in thought and deed.

Technically, they are superb...

 

However in practice, along with anything else described as "military technology" the cost is eye watering.

 

Also if you think a BD2130GH is heavy and difficult to mount, try one of these suckers.

 

In addition, they are difficult to get hold of and get service and parts.

 

But I may be wrong here....

 

Regards

 

Arnot

[ditch paddler]

We have a Mastervolt genny,will never let another piece of Mastervolt sh*t on our boat again.Over priced and thay promise the world and coudn't deliver Pizza.

I Take it the wiring adjustment at the festival made no difference. NB Cream Cracker

[PaddingtonBear]

CEN alternators are available from RN Engine Co Daventry and are based for the UK in Preston. I had mine included as part of the deal when my engine was rebuilt but I always though that it was about £230, a bit of value if ever there was one seeing the trouble most of you seem to have with your cheap (and dear) crap. Mine is a small one, 80 amps?, and charges at 25 amps on tickover, 350rpm. I have 2x220ah Ele*sols and a 200ah Exide start/reserve battery.

Edited September 21, 2009 by PaddingtonBear

[Midnight]

I was talking to someone today and happened to mention my alternator staying on Bulk for hours even days. He told me that wasn't how it should be and said I should suspect either dodgy wiring setup or a faulty Alpha-pro. The wiring looks as it should be so I am going to get the Alph-pro checked.

 

It's been like that since I installed it 5 years ago. If it is faulty I think I could make a claim under the sale of goods act (not fit for purpose?). Anyone done this?

[Nickhlx]

I was talking to someone today and happened to mention my alternator staying on Bulk for hours even days. He told me that wasn't how it should be and said I should suspect either dodgy wiring setup or a faulty Alpha-pro. The wiring looks as it should be so I am going to get the Alph-pro checked.

 

It's been like that since I installed it 5 years ago. If it is faulty I think I could make a claim under the sale of goods act (not fit for purpose?). Anyone done this?

 

 

To take the extreme case, it would do that if wired with bell wire - it would only ever charge at ? 1 or 2 amps as the in-line resistance would drop the voltage being applied to the battery to only slightly above the at rest voltage and so charge at a very low rate. Obviously this is not the cae but if you had a slightly light for the job cable and a few junctions that were not good through age or corrosion, then that would cause it.

 

When charging, measure the battery voltage ( on the lead of the lead posts ) and also at the alternator on the terminals or +ve output and the case. Ideally there should be minimal difference but say less than 0.2 volts.. i.e. 14.4 at the alternator and 14.2 at the battery. It won't be this else all would be well, but I am thinking it might be nearer 13.8 at the alternator and possibly nearly a volt less at the battery..... ( assuming lead-acid batteries )

 

Nick

Edited September 22, 2009 by Nickhlx

[Gibbo]

I was talking to someone today and happened to mention my alternator staying on Bulk for hours even days. He told me that wasn't how it should be and said I should suspect either dodgy wiring setup or a faulty Alpha-pro. The wiring looks as it should be so I am going to get the Alph-pro checked.

 

It's been like that since I installed it 5 years ago. If it is faulty I think I could make a claim under the sale of goods act (not fit for purpose?). Anyone done this?

 

He simply doesn't understand what the bulk stage is. Ignore him.

 

Gibbo

[Midnight]

He simply doesn't understand what the bulk stage is. Ignore him.

 

Gibbo

 

 

H'mmmmm he was an electrical specialist from Mastervolt.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Midnight