Gas water heating

[capnthommo]

hi folks,

can anybody throw more light on this for me?

i was planning, when i start my fit-out next year, to use a wall type gas demand heater to provide hot water for the galley sink and the adjacent shower and hand basin. i have been told (but to be fair this could well be rumour) that the use of gas is being discouraged wherever possible.

is this true? will i be able to go ahead as planned? will a paloma type be enough for the demands of a simple shower/basin/sink?

we want to keep everything as simple and 12volt/gas/solid fueled as possible cos we dont want to be messing with 230 volts/calorifiers etc. at least not to start with.

any help, advice, abuse is welcome so...

cheers

capn t

 

sept 19th is international talk like a pirate day

 

oops, just noticed gas water hating - sorry, it's been a hard day!

Edited September 1, 2009 by capnthommo

[nb Innisfree]

hi folks,

can anybody throw more light on this for me?

i was planning, when i start my fit-out next year, to use a wall type gas demand heater to provide hot water for the galley sink and the adjacent shower and hand basin. i have been told (but to be fair this could well be rumour) that the use of gas is being discouraged wherever possible.

is this true? will i be able to go ahead as planned? will a paloma type be enough for the demands of a simple shower/basin/sink?

we want to keep everything as simple and 12volt/gas/solid fueled as possible cos we dont want to be messing with 230 volts/calorifiers etc. at least not to start with.

any help, advice, abuse is welcome so...

cheers

capn t

 

sept 19th is international talk like a pirate day

 

oops, just noticed gas water hating - sorry, it's been a hard day!

 

I hate gas water too.

 

Drat, just beat me to it!

Edited September 1, 2009 by nb Innisfree

[alan_fincher]

Some thoughts in red

 

hi folks,

can anybody throw more light on this for me?

i was planning, when i start my fit-out next year, to use a wall type gas demand heater to provide hot water for the galley sink and the adjacent shower and hand basin. i have been told (but to be fair this could well be rumour) that the use of gas is being discouraged wherever possible.

 

is this true? will i be able to go ahead as planned?

 

There are two types,. There is a non room sealed type, that is simple and easy to install and has been used on canal boats for many decades. Alternatively there is a room sealed variety at well over double the cost, that needs a 240 volt supply to work, and is not flued in a way conducive to installation in boats.

 

No prizes for guessing which type the BSS office is happy with, and which it would try to encourage you not to install, (but no longer stops you doing).

will a paloma type be enough for the demands of a simple shower/basin/sink?

 

Yes, although at their full flow of 6 litres a minute they do not always produce very hot water, (depends on how cold the inlet water from your tank is, so hot water will have a higher maximum temp in summer than winter). You can raise the maximum temperature by throttling back the flow, so that in a given time period the same heat is transerred to a lower volume of water. However the flow rate could sometimes then be considered "sluggish".

 

we want to keep everything as simple and 12volt/gas/solid fueled as possible cos we dont want to be messing with 230 volts/calorifiers etc. at least not to start with.

any help, advice, abuse is welcome so...

 

Are you planning to be running the engine a fair bit, or largely static. If you are planning significant engine use, you are missing a real trick by omitting a calorifier. Although the initial cost of installation may increase your fit-out by (rough estimate) £400, you will immediately get the payback of "free" hot water from heat otherwise just dumped by your engine into the cut. OK the pay back period isn't quick, but Calor gas refills are getting more and more costly, and Paloma/Morco/Rinnai type heaters do trash the gas. Also water flows more freely from a calorifier than through an LPG instantaneous heater, which do somewhat restrict flow rate.

 

Finally, are you fitting out a new boat, or re-fitting an older one ?

 

Whilst BSS may not "mind" an open-flued LPG instantaneous heater, if your boat has to meet further tests to meet RCD requirements, then considerations may differ. Not anything I've ever been in to, so if it's new, we need someone who understands RCD.

[Chertsey]

Gas per se isn't frowned upon.

 

Getting a Paloma type heater fitted can be a bit tricky. Basically it's because they're a non room-sealed appliance. The BSS doesn't like these BUT has made an exception for instantaneous gas water heaters in view of their good safety record.

 

However, CORGI (as it was when I investigated all this) registered engineers aren't allowed to fit them. So basically you have to do it yourself. No problem subsequently getting it checked by a BSS examiner who may very well be a Gas Safe engineer as well.

 

That at least is the info that I pieced together when I looked at the question a couple of years ago. If it is out of date or just plain wrong someone will be along in a minute to say so.

 

It struck me as ridiculous that I can cook Sunday dinner running a non-room sealed gas oven and four burner hob for two hours (if I like my sprouts well done) without anyone turning a hair, but it's sharp intakes of breath all round when I turn on the hot tap for two minutes to do the washing up.

[sueb]

If you are fitting a boat out get a copy of the Boat safety regs, then you will know what is allowed.

Sue

[capnthommo]

Some thoughts in red

 

 

 

Finally, are you fitting out a new boat, or re-fitting an older one ?

 

Whilst BSS may not "mind" an open-flued LPG instantaneous heater, if your boat has to meet further tests to meet RCD requirements, then considerations may differ. Not anything I've ever been in to, so if it's new, we need someone who understands RCD.

 

 

thanks alan

that was what i thought, a mix of truth and rumour. i would certainly prefer a calorifier system, but finances might prohibit this until we have been living aboard for a few months. my intention is to make space to facilitate the conversion after a while. i was just looking towards a short term solution initially.

it will be a new fit-out and i would leave space and the pipes run but blanked off so as it could be substituted when i got the necessary hardware.

so BSS would permit. but as you say, it would also need to be RCD compliant.

a great volume and phenomenally high temperature wouldn't be needed, just enough for washing up and showering and so on. if we needed anything really hot there is always the kettle for a boost.

useful thoughts anyway, thanks very much.

capn t

 

If you are fitting a boat out get a copy of the Boat safety regs, then you will know what is allowed.

Sue

cheers sue,

already got them downloaded, but haven't had time to study yet. life and stuff getting in the way

cheers

capn t

[Guest]

Gas per se isn't frowned upon.

 

Getting a Paloma type heater fitted can be a bit tricky. Basically it's because they're a non room-sealed appliance. The BSS doesn't like these BUT has made an exception for instantaneous gas water heaters in view of their good safety record.

 

However, CORGI (as it was when I investigated all this) registered engineers aren't allowed to fit them. So basically you have to do it yourself. No problem subsequently getting it checked by a BSS examiner who may very well be a Gas Safe engineer as well.

 

That at least is the info that I pieced together when I looked at the question a couple of years ago. If it is out of date or just plain wrong someone will be along in a minute to say so.

 

It struck me as ridiculous that I can cook Sunday dinner running a non-room sealed gas oven and four burner hob for two hours (if I like my sprouts well done) without anyone turning a hair, but it's sharp intakes of breath all round when I turn on the hot tap for two minutes to do the washing up.

 

The last time I looked into this, I interpreted the rules as you did.

[capnthommo]

Gas per se isn't frowned upon.

 

Getting a Paloma type heater fitted can be a bit tricky. Basically it's because they're a non room-sealed appliance. The BSS doesn't like these BUT has made an exception for instantaneous gas water heaters in view of their good safety record.

 

However, CORGI (as it was when I investigated all this) registered engineers aren't allowed to fit them. So basically you have to do it yourself. No problem subsequently getting it checked by a BSS examiner who may very well be a Gas Safe engineer as well.

 

That at least is the info that I pieced together when I looked at the question a couple of years ago. If it is out of date or just plain wrong someone will be along in a minute to say so.

 

It struck me as ridiculous that I can cook Sunday dinner running a non-room sealed gas oven and four burner hob for two hours (if I like my sprouts well done) without anyone turning a hair, but it's sharp intakes of breath all round when I turn on the hot tap for two minutes to do the washing up.

 

thanks to you too warrior woman. all this is piecing together nicely. i'm not so worried about BSS but the RCD is the blank area at the moment. it will certainly be swapped out for calorifier at the earliest anyway. i can do the gas installation, but as you point out, i will need to get it certificated.

cheers

capn t

[NB Alnwick]

sept 19th is international talk like a pirate day

 

oops, just noticed gas water hating - sorry, it's been a hard day!

 

But we may have had enough 'Pirate Talk' today already so I will correct the topic title . . .

[NBMike]

I am Gas Safe Registered for boats. I will be fitting a Paloma (open flued) on my boat. But I won't fit one on anyone elses! However, if its already fitted,( by whosoever) I can check it, repair it, fit any parts that are still available for it or service it.

 

Mike

 

Edited to add 'As long as you're on GU South' He He!

Edited September 1, 2009 by NBMike

[alan_fincher]

it will certainly be swapped out for calorifier at the earliest anyway.

We have upgraded to have both, and it's proved the best of both worlds.

 

In "cruising mode", (our norm, as we are not live-aboards), all heating is from the engine, and no gas get's burnt for that purpose. Showers taken shortly before we stop for the day often mean we go into the evening clean and refreshed, but still with a whole tank of hot water replenished by the "motor" for washing up and other domestic purposes.

 

In the less likely event we are not moving for a day or two, or if we run the engine heated water out on a cruising day, (which has yet to happen), then we light the Morco, and throw a manual change-over valve.

 

I can't think of any other approach that could better suit our needs, and it's revolutionised things over the "Morco only" approach that the boat came with.

 

So if you fit an LPG heater, I certainly wouldn't remove it if a calorifier gets added later.

 

But you must check what's allowed on a properly certified new build, which the BSS don't get involved in.

[capnthommo]

We have upgraded to have both, and it's proved the best of both worlds.

 

In "cruising mode", (our norm, as we are not live-aboards), all heating is from the engine, and no gas get's burnt for that purpose. Showers taken shortly before we stop for the day often mean we go into the evening clean and refreshed, but still with a whole tank of hot water replenished by the "motor" for washing up and other domestic purposes.

 

In the less likely event we are not moving for a day or two, or if we run the engine heated water out on a cruising day, (which has yet to happen), then we light the Morco, and throw a manual change-over valve.

 

I can't think of any other approach that could better suit our needs, and it's revolutionised things over the "Morco only" approach that the boat came with.

 

So if you fit an LPG heater, I certainly wouldn't remove it if a calorifier gets added later.

 

But you must check what's allowed on a properly certified new build, which the BSS don't get involved in.

 

interesting thought there alan. i had just thought 'but what about the flue or whatever through roof'. i guess it makes sense to leave it. anyway [whisper] the calorifier won't go in til it's certified so...[/whisper]

even continuous cruising we dont intend to be using the engine for more than a couple of hours a day mostly so having a back up would make sense.

as i said above i have the BSS download which is on the agenda for a proper study, it's finding out about the requirements of RCD that is a little more tricky.

anyhow, the fit-outdoesn't start till next march so i have plenty of time for further research

no, really i do.

cheers again

capn t

[Chertsey]

thanks to you too warrior woman. all this is piecing together nicely. i'm not so worried about BSS but the RCD is the blank area at the moment. it will certainly be swapped out for calorifier at the earliest anyway. i can do the gas installation, but as you point out, i will need to get it certificated.

cheers

capn t

If you manage to get one in, don't take it out again! They are complementary to a calorifier - you may not be cruising or want to run the engine every day. We don't have one on Warrior simply because there's nowhere to fit one, but if I had one again, no way would I take it out. Why bother, once you've jumped through the hoops and gone to the expense?

[churchward]

sept 19th is international talk like a pirate day

 

As an amateur pirate myself I think you will find that should read

 

"Sept 19th BE international talk Pirate day Arrr m'lad (last bit optional but does give a little more colour)

 

We use an instant water heater on our boat and like Alan says absolute water temp for a given flow is variable depending on water temperature input. Not sure about new boat fitting but it is OK to replace if you have one already. As WW says it will be difficult to get someone to fit one though as a gas fitters code does not allow them to.

[WotEver]

i have the BSS download which is on the agenda for a proper study, it's finding out about the requirements of RCD that is a little more tricky.

 

As others have already said, you don't have a problem with BSS. You do however need to speak to a surveyor as to what the RCD states. (Or don't sell the boat for 5 years!)

 

Tony