Wooden Motor 'IAN'

[David Schweizer]

Yes, I accept it's possible - probably a bad example, as that picture could be either, frankly. I just wanted to use a shot with no copy-write issues.

 

EDIT: It may not be obvious as I've put the image on the web, but in the original scan of the slide, the steerer is definitely wearing glasses. I may be wrong, but I can't recall a picture of Laura Carter wearing glasses, so my money is still on Rose Whitlock.

 

What is certain, there are certainly several published pictures of Rose steering the motor.

 

If you have the slim Robert Wilson "Epilogue" book look at picture number 35, for example.

 

That one's not in any doubt, (but isn't dated)!

 

We are a long way from Ian though, so I'll stop now!

 

Yes Definitely Rose steering what looks like Renfrew (Ian had almost no upsweep on the cabin)

[alan_fincher]

Yes Definitely Rose steering what looks like Renfrew (Ian had almost no upsweep on the cabin)

She's not wearing a bowler though - or was that just a male thing ?

[AMModels]

I think she only brought it out on the fourteenth sunday in march..... COAT!!

[David Schweizer]

She's not wearing a bowler though - or was that just a male thing ?

Did anyone ever wear a bowler hat whilst steering a Working Boat?

[Tam & Di]

As you mentioned who steered what, I note several pictures I have seen show Rose helming the motor, such as this one, (taken when Cath's family were on a boating holiday in 1969 by Phil Quick - I kid you not!)

 

 

Helming??? !!!!!!!

[Derek R.]

Did anyone ever wear a bowler hat whilst steering a Working Boat?

 

Highly unlikely, as I think we know. The only photo I have ever found of a 'steerer' wearing a bowler, is on Lion tied alongside outside Walkers yard with a load. The picture credit says Lion may have stopped there for repairs. There is a gent leaning out the engine'ole, and another at the tiller and wearing a bowler. In all probability, the gent at the tiller may well have been a yard foreman in pose mode.

 

All other shots of men in bowlers are of craftsmen, gangers, some lock keepers, superintendents, and directors. All boatmen are usually seen in the ubiquitous cloth cap.

 

I do wonder if in fact it was a matter of practicality, as a bowler sits high on the head, and would be a discomfort as well as inconvenience when entering and moving within a cabin, and being hard, it would take up valuable space when not worn. Early engine drivers wore them as was befitting their station in life as important people. No less important were the No.1's, but not a bowler in sight.

 

Derek

[alan_fincher]

Helming??? !!!!!!!

I know!

 

I like to throw in those occasional teasers!

 

My first mother-in-law was very posh - very posh indeed, and liked to see me as more than a bit working class.

 

I did actually know that in her circles one talks of lavatories rather than toilets, drawing rooms rather than lounges, or napkins and definitely not serviettes.

 

Guess what words I couldn't help dropping into the conversation just once in a while, to get more than a raised eyebrow!

 

EDITED: To add that if you want to learn to be a "proper" narrow boater, aren't just about all courses on offer marketed as "helmsman's" courses anyway.

 

 

Did anyone ever wear a bowler hat whilst steering a Working Boat?

We have PhotoShop these days, so I'm sure the "evidence" that they did might emerge with time!

Edited August 29, 2009 by alan_fincher

[AMModels]

I dont think it was purely flat cap for boatmen there were those who favoured the trilby and also the favourite of the french onion sellers, a beret.

[David Schweizer]

Highly unlikely, as I think we know. The only photo I have ever found of a 'steerer' wearing a bowler, is on Lion tied alongside outside Walkers yard with a load. The picture credit says Lion may have stopped there for repairs. There is a gent leaning out the engine'ole, and another at the tiller and wearing a bowler. In all probability, the gent at the tiller may well have been a yard foreman in pose mode.

 

All other shots of men in bowlers are of craftsmen, gangers, some lock keepers, superintendents, and directors. All boatmen are usually seen in the ubiquitous cloth cap.

 

I do wonder if in fact it was a matter of practicality, as a bowler sits high on the head, and would be a discomfort as well as inconvenience when entering and moving within a cabin, and being hard, it would take up valuable space when not worn. Early engine drivers wore them as was befitting their station in life as important people. No less important were the No.1's, but not a bowler in sight.

 

Derek

We are straying off the original subject, but according to my former colleage who lived in a railway house backing on to No2 shed at Swindon during the 1930's, the top GWR Passenger Express drivers wore bowler hats and pin stripe or black suits and carried a brief case to the sheds. The brief case apparently contained standard issue boiler suit and flat hat which the driver changed into at the sheds. Of course everyone at the shed knew who they were, but in the street any stranger also would reciognise their senior status.

[Timleech]

I dont think it was purely flat cap for boatmen there were those who favoured the trilby and also the favourite of the french onion sellers, a beret.

 

Busy racking my brain as to who of the 'old guard' I've seen wearing a beret. Pretty sure that Esme, lock keeper at Napton, wore one but there must have been others. Our local pub landlord & farmer (gone nearly 20 years) wore one, not directly canal related though. Flat caps much more usual, though.

 

Tim

[David Schweizer]

I dont think it was purely flat cap for boatmen there were those who favoured the trilby and also the favourite of the french onion sellers, a beret.

That is my recollection as well, but it seems to have been a generation thing, The older men like Joe Skinner and arthurt bray favoured Trilby's, the next generation preferred flat caps, whilst the younger men seemed to wear black berets or wolly hats. Then there was Ted Ward (I think) who was often seen sporting a Cowboy hat!!

Edited August 29, 2009 by David Schweizer

[AMModels]

Joe Safe was famous for his beret, Len Wilson wasnt seen without his trilby likewise Caggy Stevens IIRC

[David Schweizer]

Busy racking my brain as to who of the 'old guard' I've seen wearing a beret. Pretty sure that Esme, lock keeper at Napton, wore one but there must have been others. Our local pub landlord & farmer (gone nearly 20 years) wore one, not directly canal related though. Flat caps much more usual, though.

 

Tim

Bill Whitlock, Ernie Kendal, Jim Collins, George Wain, Ted Ward (when he wasn't wearing his cowboy hat, Ron Green, Not sure about Ron Withey and Jack Boswell, they may have worn a sort of squashed woolen hat.

 

 

 

Yes,

 

I'm sure that's right.

 

If there was lock-wheeling to be done there seems to be little doubt about who was doing it.

 

As you mentioned who steered what, I note several pictures I have seen show Rose helming the motor, such as this one, (taken when Cath's family were on a boating holiday in 1969 by Phil Quick - I kid you not!)

 

Tracking back, have you got Robert Wilson's *"Life Afloat"?

 

Have a look at the photo on the back page and tell me that isn't Laura Carter in your picture of Renfrew and Lucy.

[alan_fincher]

Have a look at the photo on the back page and tell me that isn't Laura Carter in your picture of Renfrew and Lucy.

I can see why you think that, David.

 

However that photo shows both women in broadly similar coats, both not unlike, but probably not the same as, the one in my picture.

 

I think the slide shows a lady in a headscarf, a regular Rose Whitlock thing - see both pages 4 & 5 of the booklet you mention. (Incidentally I think those two pictures give a different impression of her build from each other).

 

The clincher to me is that the lady steeing the pair out from Blue Line in the slide definitely has glasses in the original. If you can point me at a picture of Laura Carter steering either motor with glasses on, I'll concede the point. (She doesn't seem to wear them now, IIRC).

 

Or I'm sure you are not beyond asking her or Rose's daughter!

 

(I hope I'm not being too argumentative, but I recall those sessions you used to have with John Orentas, and feel a deputy is needed now John rarely posts!....)

Bill Whitlock, Ernie Kendal, Jim Collins, George Wain, Ted Ward (when he wasn't wearing his cowboy hat, Ron Green, Not sure about Ron Withey and Jack Boswell, they may have worn a sort of squashed woolen hat.

Alf Hambridge features in booklets like "Epilogue" wearing what is almost a "sailor's" hat.

 

If I buy one of those will it make me a proper boater, please ?

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

An obvious omission from the "beret" list was Rose Skinner, of course. Was it always red ? Hard to tell in black and white photos.

Edited August 29, 2009 by alan_fincher

[Derek R.]

Alan wrote: -

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

An obvious omission from the "beret" list was Rose Skinner, of course. Was it always red ? Hard to tell in black and white photos."

 

I read it was maroon, and she was seldom without it. Let's not forget Laura also wore a beret, and I don't see a beret on the head of the steerer in the last shot.

I know we have strayed off the Ian topic, but the question was asked! Hat styles varied, and of course generations changed their fancies. Berets became popular after the second world war - my Dad wore one often, it was a little emblem if you like, to others - that he served, and maybe a poignant reminder to himself and in memory of those who didn't come back.

Like the woolie hat, any soft headgear gave some protection from cabin fittings, bridge masonry and Sun, whereas Trilbys gave the addition of running the rain from the neck, they also could take flight in a gale of wind.

 

I worked on a production line at Rootes once, down in a pit fixing steering boxes, drag links and shock absorbers to Commer Spacevans. We were issued hard hats, as if you stood upright you got battered on the head. But the hard hats were so tall, you ended up in a half crouch, and they still got knocked off. The solution was the woolie hat.

 

It's largely down to practicalities and personal choice. Being a 'proper' boater, is about handling a boat efficiently and safely, working or not. I'll leave the pedants to argue over 'proper'.

 

Anyone got an up to date picture of Ian? Be nice to see what it looks like now.

 

Derek

 

Busy racking my brain as to who of the 'old guard' I've seen wearing a beret. Pretty sure that Esme, lock keeper at Napton, wore one but there must have been others. Our local pub landlord & farmer (gone nearly 20 years) wore one, not directly canal related though. Flat caps much more usual, though.

 

Tim

 

Yes, we met Esme going down Napton in '83 - flushed us out of one lock using the bounce - didn't half fly! He wore a beret then - and cycle clips - can't be a proper lengthsman without cycle clips . . .

 

Derek

[carlt]

Anyone got an up to date picture of Ian? Be nice to see what it looks like now.

Clicky

 

Though she doesn't seem to have come down in price since I looked at her, 2 or 3 months ago.

[alan_fincher]

Though she doesn't seem to have come down in price since I looked at her, 2 or 3 months ago.

And if it did, Carl ???

 

Actually I thought I remembered more that £35K.

 

No idea what the under-cloth conversion offers, (no pictures ?), but my God, that appears some boat for the money.

 

Is it as good as it looks, because if it is, I'm kind of surprised it remains unsold ?

[carlt]

And if it did, Carl ???

 

Actually I thought I remembered more that £35K.

 

No idea what the under-cloth conversion offers, (no pictures ?), but my God, that appears some boat for the money.

 

Is it as good as it looks, because if it is, I'm kind of surprised it remains unsold ?

The rebuild is not as good as Hardy's (and a lot older), which sold for £8k and the undertarp conversion is clean but very basic.

 

Wooden boats are worthless. At least the metal money pit will give you something back, when you're fed up with it.

[Natalie Graham]

Though she doesn't seem to have come down in price since I looked at her, 2 or 3 months ago.

The asking price was £45,000 ono. (I've been looking more often than every 2 or 3 months. )

[carlt]

And if it did, Carl ???

I would buy Ian (because I can't have Hardy) if I was in the market for a full length boat.

 

After a couple of years off the cut I find myself drawn towards Taylors of Chester, to be honest, for a bit of stillwater entertainment.

[NB Esk]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but can anyone say how the rear doors & hatch, are secured.

 

I can see no fixings or related holes,etc. Looks very neat, but how's it done?

 

(Lookin' at the images in Carl's link)

[alan_fincher]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but can anyone say how the rear doors & hatch, are secured.

 

I can see no fixings or related holes,etc. Looks very neat, but how's it done?

Carl says wooden boats are quite worthless, so perhaps they see no need to lock it!

 

(OK, I realise they might want to leave something of value inside this otherwise worthless boat....)

 

(If it is worthless, I'll take it for nothing!)

[carlt]

Carl says wooden boats are quite worthless, so perhaps they see no need to lock it!

Sorry, I meant "priceless" (depending on your perspective).

[AMModels]

when did hardy sell for £8k surely theres something wrong in the world when a boat as beautiful as either hardy or ian sell for so little?...at least if its not me buying it.

[Timleech]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but can anyone say how the rear doors & hatch, are secured.

 

I can see no fixings or related holes,etc. Looks very neat, but how's it done?

 

(Lookin' at the images in Carl's link)

 

I'd say the answer is that it's not finished (or wasn't when the pic was taken). There isn't even a cabin hook on the inside.

 

I'm amazed that the stem bar (on a boat for sale) has been left with a spike missing, that missing spike immediately says the top of the stem post could be rotten.

 

Tim

Edited August 30, 2009 by Timleech