Careless Users

[mayalld]

Lock 12E - 13E HNC EAST

 

Wednesday 1 July 2009 until further notice

 

The canal is closed from lock 12E to 13E

The paddles at lock 12E have been left open by a boater, draining the pound of water. Due to the long pound above lock 12E refilling will take a number of days. Please be advised that water shortage on the pounds above 13E prevents BW from penning water down.

 

Yet again, we have a user, due to careless inattention causing a canal to be closed.

 

Should BW not pursue such boaters for their costs, or even a nominal penalty charge?

 

If they pursued full costs, doubtless insurance companies would pay, but the offenders would still be out of pocket by the excess, and their NCD would be up the spout.

[carlt]

Whilst I don't disagree, the problem is finding the miscreants and proving the case.

 

If this event had been witnessed, by someone who recognised what was happening, then they would have dropped the paddles and the pound would not have emptied.

[O'Mali]

Achtung!

 

CLOZE DE PADDLES OR YOU VILL BE FINED!

 

Dave, annoying as it is, people make mistakes.

 

If the police cannot properly enforce speeding tickets because the registered owner tells them he/she cannot “remember” who was driving, how will BW enforce this? CCTV on all the locks??

 

And…… oh nah, it’s to hot to bother!

 

Relax, chill, enjoy the stoppage making friends with fellow water locked boaters, sharing a beer and a bacon sarnie.

[mayalld]

Achtung!

 

CLOZE DE PADDLES OR YOU VILL BE FINED!

 

Dave, annoying as it is, people make mistakes.

 

If the police cannot properly enforce speeding tickets because the registered owner tells them he/she cannot "remember" who was driving, how will BW enforce this? CCTV on all the locks??

 

And…… oh nah, it's to hot to bother!

 

Relax, chill, enjoy the stoppage making friends with fellow water locked boaters, sharing a beer and a bacon sarnie.

 

If the boat can be identified, then BW can enforce a fine against the owner, because the owner agrees in taking out a licence to ensure that there is a competent crew in place.

 

Hire companies have it as a condition of hire that the hirer will pay any charges imposed by BW.

 

Yes, people make mistakes.

 

Where there is no penalty for making a mistake, there is less incentive to take extra care to avoid making mistakes.

 

Perhaps I'm hyper-sensitive about this, but the number of occasions locally where a stoppage has been caused by careless acts is getting out of hand.

 

Finally, it is all well and good to tell people to chill and enjoy the stoppage (possibly 3 days), but not all of us have unlimited leisure time, and if I'm off work for a fortnight on holiday, then losing 3 days because somebody failed to take care can really knacker a holiday.

 

Or perhaps those of us who have land based jobs that we are tied by are less important than the free spirits.

[O'Mali]

If the boat can be identified, then BW can enforce a fine against the owner, because the owner agrees in taking out a licence to ensure that there is a competent crew in place.

 

Hire companies have it as a condition of hire that the hirer will pay any charges imposed by BW.

 

Yes, people make mistakes.

 

Where there is no penalty for making a mistake, there is less incentive to take extra care to avoid making mistakes.

 

Perhaps I'm hyper-sensitive about this, but the number of occasions locally where a stoppage has been caused by careless acts is getting out of hand.

 

Finally, it is all well and good to tell people to chill and enjoy the stoppage (possibly 3 days), but not all of us have unlimited leisure time, and if I'm off work for a fortnight on holiday, then losing 3 days because somebody failed to take care can really knacker a holiday.

 

Or perhaps those of us who have land based jobs that we are tied by are less important than the free spirits.

I can fully sympathise with you on the dead lines front but how does fining people change that. If it becomes an insurance claim, we all pay anyway.

 

My suggestion is that during the busier months, BW have more people on the ground keeping an eye on the newb’s and their water levels.

[mayalld]

I can fully sympathise with you on the dead lines front but how does fining people change that. If it becomes an insurance claim, we all pay anyway.

 

My suggestion is that during the busier months, BW have more people on the ground keeping an eye on the newb's and their water levels.

 

That presumes that it is newb, when very often the culprit is Rear Admiral Fortescue Smythe Scrambled Egg Navy (retd), who has been boating for years don't you know, and don't presume to tell him anything.

 

As to the insurance thing, in general insurance companies would pass on a fair proportion of the costs to the sinners in the shape lost NCDs.

 

In general, I favour a £100 FPN for negligent acts which cause navigation to be restricted.

[O'Mali]

very often the culprit is Rear Admiral Fortescue Smythe Scrambled Egg Navy (retd)

LOL. I agree fine them type, not for their navigating mistake but for having such a stupid hat!

[Nine of Hearts]

How do they know it was a boater? Like carl says, if there were witnesses, why didn't they drop the paddles? And if there were no witnesses, how do we know it was a boater? I remember posts on here complaining of sections of the HNC being drained be ne'er-do-wells for the purposes of stranding fish. Could this be the case in this instance?

 

Also if they been left open by a boater, how could the pound have drained? If you're going uphill, you'd leave the top paddles open, but the bottom gate shut. Unless the bottom gate really does leak, this would have no more detrimental effect than leaving the top gate open/ajar, which loads of naughty malchicks do without disastrous consequences. Similarly, if locking down, you'd leave an empty lock and the downstream paddles up if negligence was your bag. Sounds more like intentional mischief to me.

[nb Innisfree]

How do they know it was a boater? Like carl says, if there were witnesses, why didn't they drop the paddles? And if there were no witnesses, how do we know it was a boater? I remember posts on here complaining of sections of the HNC being drained be ne'er-do-wells for the purposes of stranding fish. Could this be the case in this instance?

 

Also if they been left open by a boater, how could the pound have drained? If you're going uphill, you'd leave the top paddles open, but the bottom gate shut. Unless the bottom gate really does leak, this would have no more detrimental effect than leaving the top gate open/ajar, which loads of naughty malchicks do without disastrous consequences. Similarly, if locking down, you'd leave an empty lock and the downstream paddles up if negligence was your bag. Sounds more like intentional mischief to me.

 

Some locks have instructions to leave bottom paddles open, if a boater did this but forgot to close top paddles

[RichardH]

If you read the 'Water Water Everywhere' thread you will note that one of the BW team left paddles open by mistake.

 

I know, BW could start a new department to fine other departments.

 

As previously stated everyone makes mistakes

[Nine of Hearts]

As previously stated everyone makes mistakes

 

Not me, I dob't.

[Arnot]

Not me, I dob't.

mice one!

[mayalld]

How do they know it was a boater? Like carl says, if there were witnesses, why didn't they drop the paddles? And if there were no witnesses, how do we know it was a boater? I remember posts on here complaining of sections of the HNC being drained be ne'er-do-wells for the purposes of stranding fish. Could this be the case in this instance?

 

Also if they been left open by a boater, how could the pound have drained? If you're going uphill, you'd leave the top paddles open, but the bottom gate shut. Unless the bottom gate really does leak, this would have no more detrimental effect than leaving the top gate open/ajar, which loads of naughty malchicks do without disastrous consequences. Similarly, if locking down, you'd leave an empty lock and the downstream paddles up if negligence was your bag. Sounds more like intentional mischief to me.

 

Could well be.

 

However, in this case, it was stated that the pound was drained by a boater.

 

Let us consider how BW might KNOW this to be true....

 

Perhaps the boater was ascending the lock, having left a bottom paddle open, and when the lock took an awful long time to make a level failed to notice that the paddle was up, and carried on trying to fill.

[drunkensailor]

Who did it? An experienced boater, someone hiring for a day? Some kids that found a windlass? The only way to prevent this is to install CCTV everywhere. And speaking personally, I'd much rather people get away with things like this than we had cameras spying on us like they do everywhere else.

 

I know it's annoying if you're stuck somewhere, but really, getting stranded places is part of owning a boat. Getting annoyed when that happens must make for a very unsatisfying experience.

[Laurie Booth]

"Lock 12E - 13E HNC EAST

 

Wednesday 1 July 2009 until further notice

 

The canal is closed from lock 12E to 13E

The paddles at lock 12E have been left open by a boater, draining the pound of water. Due to the long pound above lock 12E refilling will take a number of days. Please be advised that water shortage on the pounds above 13E prevents BW from penning water down."

 

If BW know it was a boater why didn't they stop the boater from doing it. How do they know it was a boater?

[Keeping Up]

We arrived at the eastern end of Standedge tunnel just as the stoppage was imposed, so here is the story as told to me by the BW guys at the scene.

 

The previous day a boater stated his intention to go down from Marsden to Huddersfield. BW instructed him to wait until their arrival at 8 am, when they would assist him down as the pounds were very short of water. He awoke early and decided not to waut for BW, but instead set off at 6am. Sure enough he soon found that several pounds were short of water, so he decided to let some water down from above. He went back and opened the paddles at both ends of the lock (or locks? depends who you talk to) behind him, and similarly opened all the subsequent ones down to where he was stuck. So far so good, apart from disobeying BW's "instructions".

 

He reasoned however that he may encounter several empty pounds, so the best thing would be to let plenty of water down. So he left all the paddles open, deliberately, behind him. Also as he left each lock behind him on his journey to Slaithwaite he not only left the bottom paddles up but also went back and opened the top paddles to continue letting water down.

 

The results were disastrous, flooding a row of cottages and washing away a hundred yards of towpath, as well as causing a drastic shortage of water behind him. As if that wasn't enough, when BW tried to help the 3 boats up who were booked through Standedge that morning, one of them caught the top cill as they tried to exit a lock into a drained pound and damaged it enough that top the gate wouldn't shut properly.

 

The boater was identified easily enough, and stopped by BW who said they would charge him for the cost of the damage. His reply was "That's OK, my insurance will cover it" to which BW responded "I think you'll find it won't".

 

That was why when we emerged from the tunnel (on the Tuesday morning, having been delayed by a day by a broken paddle on the Diggle flight) we were advised to turn around and go back again on the Wednesday morning. Still we had a good timwe in the Tunnel End pub with Odana and Black Beauty who were on one of the two boats that had successfully made it up from Marsden before the third of the three broke the cill (it was that boat's booked place that we were given to get back through the tunnel)

[Laurie Booth]

We arrived at the eastern end of Standedge tunnel just as the stoppage was imposed, so here is the story as told to me by the BW guys at the scene.

 

The previous day a boater stated his intention to go down from Marsden to Huddersfield. BW instructed him to wait until their arrival at 8 am, when they would assist him down as the pounds were very short of water. He awoke early and decided not to waut for BW, but instead set off at 6am. Sure enough he soon found that several pounds were short of water, so he decided to let some water down from above. He went back and opened the paddles at both ends of the lock (or locks? depends who you talk to) behind him, and similarly opened all the subsequent ones down to where he was stuck. So far so good, apart from disobeying BW's "instructions".

 

He reasoned however that he may encounter several empty pounds, so the best thing would be to let plenty of water down. So he left all the paddles open, deliberately, behind him. Also as he left each lock behind him on his journey to Slaithwaite he not only left the bottom paddles up but also went back and opened the top paddles to continue letting water down.

 

The results were disastrous, flooding a row of cottages and washing away a hundred yards of towpath, as well as causing a drastic shortage of water behind him. As if that wasn't enough, when BW tried to help the 3 boats up who were booked through Standedge that morning, one of them caught the top cill as they tried to exit a lock into a drained pound and damaged it enough that top the gate wouldn't shut properly.

 

The boater was identified easily enough, and stopped by BW who said they would charge him for the cost of the damage. His reply was "That's OK, my insurance will cover it" to which BW responded "I think you'll find it won't".

 

That was why when we emerged from the tunnel (on the Tuesday morning, having been delayed by a day by a broken paddle on the Diggle flight) we were advised to turn around and go back again on the Wednesday morning. Still we had a good timwe in the Tunnel End pub with Odana and Black Beauty who were on one of the two boats that had successfully made it up from Marsden before the third of the three broke the cill (it was that boat's booked place that we were given to get back through the tunnel)

Now we know

[Mac of Cygnet]

The boater was identified easily enough, and stopped by BW who said they would charge him for the cost of the damage. His reply was "That's OK, my insurance will cover it" to which BW responded "I think you'll find it won't".

 

Are you going to name and shame, then? I thought the top lock at Marsden was padlocked out of hours.

[Keeping Up]

Are you going to name and shame, then? I thought the top lock at Marsden was padlocked out of hours.

If I knew his name I would definitely name and shame, but unfortunately I don't. BW wouldn't tell me!

 

I believe he was moored at Marsden, ie below the top lock, and I don't think he opened the paddles from the summit (maybe they are locked, or is it only the gate?), which was why all the pounds behind him got drained and not refilled - also the summit level wasn't down at all which was why BW staff didn't notice anything wrong when they first arrived at the visitor centre.

[MartinClark]

There are two different incidents being talked about here.

 

The one Allan is talking about happened on the Marsden flight on 4th June. I went down those locks in mid-July and the damage to the towpath was still very much in evidence then.

 

The incident mentioned by Dave at the start of this thread involved Lock 12e and happened on 1st July. BW must take a share of the blame for that because, with the poor state of the lock, it would only require one paddle to have been left up to drain the long pound above.

 

Only one top paddle was working at the time - the other was taped up. One of the bottom gates had (still has?) a big hole which let out lots of water. With only one top paddle working this made it very difficult to get a level filling the lock up. If someone had left that one paddle open, the water would have just poured through the lock.

 

The following photo shows the bottom gates of Lock 12e on 19th July, when we were struggling to fill it:

 

No, that is not a paddle open - that is a hole in the gate!

[Keeping Up]

Interesting because it was 30th June when we came through the tunnel and BW told me that was the cause of the problem, the stoppage for which was imposed on 1st July when it proved impossible to rectify the damage to the lock.

[MartinClark]

I'm sure you're right. The stoppage was announced on July 1st but the incident probably happened the day before.

 

I recall that BW originally said it would take a few days to re-fill the long pound due to water shortages but, in the event, they re-opened the canal the next day.

http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/news/new...m#huddersfield9

Edited November 15, 2009 by MartinClark

[bestyman]

Hope you don't mind me asking here ( its sort of on topic), but could someone tell me where canals get water from please? Is it from a river? And what happens if the canal goes up a hill then back down again, how does the top bit fill up?

Lastly, can canals overflow and flood surrounding land in bad weather?

In case you ask why Im asking it's cos we hire one next week.

[blodger]

Hope you don't mind me asking here ( its sort of on topic), but could someone tell me where canals get water from please? Is it from a river? And what happens if the canal goes up a hill then back down again, how does the top bit fill up?

Lastly, can canals overflow and flood surrounding land in bad weather?

In case you ask why Im asking it's cos we hire one next week.

Reservoirs were built to collect rainwater and feed the canals. One of the problems is that some have been sold off. Backpumping is used in areas of shortage where locks would otherwise drain the summit pounds. Canals have always facillitated drainage from the land and what man has added to it. While you are cruising you will see the feeders topping up the canal and overspill weirs feeding brooks, etc

[Matthew Knowles]

The Cromford Canal (now disused) has a rather nice steam beam engine that can pump water from the river below up into the canal. This pump house is now run by volunteers and can be visited 'in steam' on many of the bank holidays. Well worth a visit!