Big Woolwich: am I mad?

[David Schweizer]

Currently paired with Argo on the GU. The K&A was just too shallow.

The intermediate owners made a few changes for living on board, the bunk room became a bathroom and the forward toilet compartment went to allow the galley to double in size with a Rayburn in it.

 

Soon to be advertised at Wawickshire Fly.

<So we're hoping for someone madder than WW to come along???>

 

The bluffer Woolwich bow is kinder to the gate woodwork when 'assisting them to open'....

 

Simon.

I knew Bristol when she was on the K&A, and owned by Geofrey Rogerson (saw him at the weekend)

 

I also believe that I knew the boat in the 1960's. Was she operated by Willow Wren carrying the name Dipper? if it is the same boat, Jack Boswell captained her for a while.

[Hairy-Neil]

I also believe that I knew the boat in the 1960's. Was she operated by Willow Wren carrying the name Dipper? if it is the same boat, Jack Boswell captained her for a while.

 

Yes, same boat. Willow Wren bought her from BW in a batch in 1962, along with several other town class motors.

 

Hadley - Rail

 

Seaford - Curlew

 

Letchworth - Flamingo

 

Thaxtead - Widgeon

 

Gainsborough - Never used or renamed

[alan_fincher]

Possible pedant alert ?

 

Thaxted, rather than Thaxtead ?

[Phil Speight]

We own a lovely boat on which we have spent vast amounts of time and money. It is beautifully fitted out, has a fantastic vintage (I hate that term) engine and can go anywhere. Yet I find myself very seriously considering the possibility of trading it in for a seventy+ year old project that will take ten years and all our money to do properly. Am I certifiably insane?

 

Posted here rather than in general boating in the hope of a more sympathetic response.

 

Would like to hear of experiences (good and bad) of owning, working on, restoring and using such a boat. If you have, would you do it again knowing what you do now?

I had Badsey for many years. She was beautiful , a joy to boat with , a warm and friendly home and made every trip an adventure. I hate the fact that I had to sell her to this day.Buy one - but be careful which . You can spend tens of thousands of pounds restoring one properly. Then , when you have your "proper" boat present it properly. Hold empty and scrubbed out, brasses polished , paint mopped off, strings and strips scrubbed , fenders properly mounted. Then you won`t be the floating insult to the working boat families that so many other ex-working boats are. And don`t wear a bloody neckerchief for god`s sake.

Cheers

Phil

[starman]

Possible pedant alert ?

 

Thaxted, rather than Thaxtead ?

 

 

Definitely - I used to live there (in the town, not in the boat)

[Chertsey]

Thanks Phil, that is the sort of response I was looking for - not only because it's positive! I'd just like to hear as wide a range of experiences as possible. I've talked to lots of people in person, but I know there are people on the forum who have or have had such boats and whom I haven't met.

 

And by the way, I am a member of HNBOC, before anyone suggests that.

Edited May 19, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[alan_fincher]

And don`t wear a bloody neckerchief for god`s sake.

How about a seafaring captain's hat ?

 

Or even a cowboy hat, with sheriff badge ?

 

There are published pictures of working boatmen wearing both.

 

(And we are talking about families like Hambridge, with a long association with the canals, not people who necessarily joined carrying in it's dying years).

 

I'll have to look for neckerchiefs, though!

[carlt]

Page 47 of Blagrove's "Waterways of Northamptonshire" has 3 definite neckerchiefs and not one dog (though b&w photography doesn't help, with the colour) then again, on page 52 there's a woman with a flying saucer on her head.

[David Schweizer]

I had Badsey for many years. She was beautiful , a joy to boat with , a warm and friendly home and made every trip an adventure. I hate the fact that I had to sell her to this day.Buy one - but be careful which . You can spend tens of thousands of pounds restoring one properly. Then , when you have your "proper" boat present it properly. Hold empty and scrubbed out, brasses polished , paint mopped off, strings and strips scrubbed , fenders properly mounted. Then you won`t be the floating insult to the working boat families that so many other ex-working boats are. And don`t wear a bloody neckerchief for god`s sake.

Cheers

Phil

Joe Skinner nearly always wore a neckerchief, and so did Arthur Bray along with quite a few of the other older men., but they were usually plain material not red with white spots!!

 

The one "traditional dress code" item I cannot abide is the Bowler hat, where does that notion come from? I can remember Trilbys, Flat Caps, Black Berrets, or Knitted hats without a bobble; although one of the Ward brothers (I think it was Ted) often wore a cowboy hat.

Edited May 19, 2009 by David Schweizer

[down the north]

Hi Sarah,,

Hmmmmm, think very carefully, would you be planning to boat 'empty' or converted under the cloths, or what ?? If empty, just borrow one for a couple of days and go up the Ashby, or round the Coventry. You'll need strong arms and plenty of nerve because steering these big boats, the forend is so much higher empty and youre scating the forend round bridges and other boats as standard. Then theres wind, just dont bother going anywhere unless you master the art of 'crabbing' down the cut, with power on, and thats including passing moored boats. Now to locking, forends useful for getting on the lockside at Bosley, going uphill, but thats about it, how are either of you going to get off a 6ft boat if you cant jump off the counter??

As regards cabin, be practical, forget a wooden one unless youre living in it full time, then theres the space issue, always gettin under each nothers feet,, regards the steelwork, Tim's right, a well welded patch is just a progression of history, and bumps and tears would be done like that in the 50's n 60's so why not now. Major work always looks better proper rivetted but the money !!! You'll probably never get it back on resale. Its a personal choice.

If youre confident about the handling , then go for it, however the last thing you want, is to be seen as a boat owner who's taken on something that puts you out of your depth, no offence, just being realistic from experience ( took Elstree up the Caldon )

martin

[bristol & argo]

I knew Bristol when she was on the K&A, and owned by Geofrey Rogerson (saw him at the weekend)

 

I also believe that I knew the boat in the 1960's. Was she operated by Willow Wren carrying the name Dipper? if it is the same boat, Jack Boswell captained her for a while.

Yep same boat, and the Waterways World, Willow Wren booklet and postcards are responsible for us buying Argo, since they were paired for a while and pictured.

Bristol seems to have mostly evaded people with cameras....

 

 

On the subject of crabbing - that flippin wind at the weekend! we had to breast up between Leighton and Soulbury since you can't crab 140ft down the canal. I just couldn't get enough speed (too shallow) to keep Argo off the bank and moored boats it took ages.

 

 

Simon.

[FadeToScarlet]

She's got a certificate in handling Big Woolwiches.

 

(Try saying that in a Kenneth Williams voice!)

[alan_fincher]

The one "traditional dress code" item I cannot abide is the Bowler hat, where does that notion come from? I can remember Trilbys, Flat Caps, Black Berrets, or Knitted hats without a bobble; although one of the Ward brothers (I think it was Ted) often wore a cowboy hat.

Well you could have a go at the Foxton Inclined Plane Trust's researchers for a start....

 

There were changes to clothing styles during the 20th century. During the first two, or so, decades of the century, the boatmen's flat cap gave way to other styles, including the bowler and the trilby.

 

From their "teacher's pack" at......

 

FIPT Teachers pack

 

 

 

She's got a certificate in handling Big Woolwiches.

I may have missed something, but has she not got a certificate in handling Big Northwiches ?

 

Might some further add-on not be required to safely steer a Woolwich, which I now understand to have a significantly different underwater shape ?

[MoominPapa]

I may have missed something, but has she not got a certificate in handling Big Northwiches ?

 

Might some further add-on not be required to safely steer a Woolwich, which I now understand to have a significantly different underwater shape ?

Periscope to see over the front?

 

MP.

[David Schweizer]

Well you could have a go at the Foxton Inclined Plane Trust's researchers for a start....

 

From their "teacher's pack" at......

 

FIPT Teachers pack

 

Whilst there are two or three early photos of FMC captains wearing bowler hats whichsome people claim (without any documentary evidence) was part of the "official uniform", there is no evidence they were worn by any other Working Boatmen. Contemporary photos of FMC boats underway also suggest that bowlers were not worn as working clothes. Bowler hats were not traditionally worn by working people, and photograhic evidence suggests that the clothes worn by working Boat crews were similar, albeit usually a few years behind fashion.

 

There are always some young men who will seek to be "up to date" with fashion and the Canal population was no exception, but the number of Boatmen sporting fashionable clothes would have been very small and cannot be taken as evidence that this was widespread practice.

 

In my view the Foxton Inclined Plane Trust's Educational notes are an inaccurate reflection of the historical evidence, and seek to mis inform their readers..

Edited May 20, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Hairy-Neil]

Bowler hats were not traditionally worn by working people,

 

Origins of the bowler hat From Wikipedia...Clicky

 

The bowler hat was devised in 1849 by the London hatmakers Thomas and William Bowler to fulfil an order placed by the firm of hatters Lock & Co. of St. James's, a company established in 1676 which is still in business. Lock & Co. had been commissioned by a customer to design a close-fitting, low-crowned hat to protect his gamekeepers' heads from low-hanging branches while on horseback. The keepers had previously worn top hats, which were easily knocked off and damaged. It was also hoped that the new style of hat would protect the keepers if they were attacked by poachers.

 

 

 

Gamekeepers are very hard working people from my experience.....

[FadeToScarlet]

I may have missed something, but has she not got a certificate in handling Big Northwiches ?

 

Might some further add-on not be required to safely steer a Woolwich, which I now understand to have a significantly different underwater shape ?

 

Service Pack 2, I think...

 

In my view the Foxton Inclined Plane Trust's Educational notes are an inaccurate reflection of the historical evidence, and seek to mis inform their readers..

 

It's cunningly phrased; they state that the flat cap gave way to other styles, and give two examples, but they're not being specific enough to be able to say they're deliberately misleading. They're not saying that all boatmen started to wear this particular hat, they're just saying that typical headgear changed over a period of time.

 

Maybe I'm being a little bit too post-structuralist, but this is exactly the kind of question that it's very hard to answer, and there may not even be a "correct" answer.

[Phil Speight]

How about a seafaring captain's hat ?

 

Or even a cowboy hat, with sheriff badge ?

 

There are published pictures of working boatmen wearing both.

 

(And we are talking about families like Hambridge, with a long association with the canals, not people who necessarily joined carrying in it's dying years).

 

I'll have to look for neckerchiefs, though!

Absolutely - anything but a bleedin` catch all uniform - and don`t forget the collar and tie! Personally I used to wear a combination of teashirts/jeans/leather jacket/donkey jacket/overalls/Tilly hat, baseball cap/flat`at - whatever, in othr words, whatever I happened to be wearing on any given day!

I just don`t get the dressing up thing - and even less the wearing of the "uniform" at modern so-called boaters weddings. For goodness sake , any self respecting working man , boatman, mill worker whatever would put his best , probably only, suit on for his wedding !

[Chertsey]

I may have missed something, but has she not got a certificate in handling Big Northwiches ?

 

Quite so, and possibly only one in particular.

[David Schweizer]

Service Pack 2, I think...

 

 

 

It's cunningly phrased; they state that the flat cap gave way to other styles, and give two examples, but they're not being specific enough to be able to say they're deliberately misleading. They're not saying that all boatmen started to wear this particular hat, they're just saying that typical headgear changed over a period of time.

 

Maybe I'm being a little bit too post-structuralist, but this is exactly the kind of question that it's very hard to answer, and there may not even be a "correct" answer.

 

No not deliberatelty misleading, historically inaccurate would be a better analysis.

 

Under the sub heading "Clothes" within a section entitled "People on the Canals" the Trust states "During the first two, or so, decades of the century, the boatmen's flat cap gave way to other styles, including the bowler and the trilby." If that is not saying that boatemen started to wear either a Trilby or Bowler instead of a Flat cap, I clearly need to re-sit my English Examinations. A further example of how muddled and misleading this statement is that the Photographic evidence would suggest that one of the "other styles" Boatmen started to wear instead of the flat cap, was clearly the Flat Cap!!

 

In order to make accurate statement about events in the past, it is necessary to demonstrate that the statement can be supported by evidence. What the Trust appear to have done is publish a popularised myth without researching it's accuracy. They are not alone in this, indeed much of the (so called) history that I have read in books, repeats mistakes that have been copied from other poorly researched works. I spend a great deal of my time in Records Offices and Libraries pouring over old documents, and would never publish any statement unless I could support it with documentary evidence. If I do (with permission) use someone elses work, I first satisfy myself of the integrity of their research before using it.

 

We need to remember that this document is aimed at children, who will accept the statements as true. It is particularly unimpressive that a Trust purporting to represent a section of Industrial history should publish material which misinforms children. I recognise that it is a small and unimportant point, but as someone who takes a great deal of time to ensure that any research that I publish is accurate, it irritates me.

 

Sorry. I really must not say any more. Rant over.

Edited May 20, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Derek R.]

Bowler hats in the workplace were usually worn by a company official or foreman, at least around the forties and maybe into the fifties. Back during the 20's possibly, an 'on site' ganger might have worn one, but I doubt he would be getting 'stuck in' with the Flat caps.

 

We had a Beadle on our housing estate as a kid who wore a company dark brown suit and Bowler with brass badge on it. Quite smart, and a bloody terror to us kids.

 

Strayed off the Woolwich a bit ennit?

 

Derek

[Hairy-Neil]

No not deliberatelty misleading, historically inaccurate would be a better analysis.

 

You'll be telling us next that the Vikings never wore horned helmets......

[David Schweizer]

You'll be telling us next that the Vikings never wore horned helmets......

Is there any evidence that they did?

[carlt]

Is there any evidence that they did?

did-vikings-really-wear-horns-on-their-helmets

[Derek R.]

did-vikings-really-wear-horns-on-their-helmets

 

There was a helmet with horns found in the Thames near Greenwich, but more likely to have been a ceremonial piece of headgear than regular wear. Like the Romans, the ornate headgear was not worn in battle as they provided too much of a handhold, something a little more practical would have been worn.

 

There is a very good series on the 'Celts' (a word of Greek origin) viewable here in three parts. They were a race of people sharing a common language that occupied much of the land that ranges between Turkey, right across and up to the Shetland Isles. Their remnants now exist in Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, Ireland, and Scotland, with some remarkable reconstructions of an early town in what is now Germany.

 

Derek

Edited May 21, 2009 by Derek R.