Big Woolwich: am I mad?

[Chertsey]

We own a lovely boat on which we have spent vast amounts of time and money. It is beautifully fitted out, has a fantastic vintage (I hate that term) engine and can go anywhere. Yet I find myself very seriously considering the possibility of trading it in for a seventy+ year old project that will take ten years and all our money to do properly. Am I certifiably insane?

 

Posted here rather than in general boating in the hope of a more sympathetic response.

 

Would like to hear of experiences (good and bad) of owning, working on, restoring and using such a boat. If you have, would you do it again knowing what you do now?

[denboy]

Stark raving mad of course

[alan_fincher]

Am I certifiably insane?

I believe it's an absolute requirement for taking on a working boat.

 

It the boat's current owner doesn't judge you to be certifiably insane, then they should not be agreeing to sell it to you.

 

Actually I don't believe they necessarily have to be a worse prospect than a more modern boat, but you do need to have a suitably loaded wallet, unless you have the skills to do the really difficult stuff yourselves - steel work being the obvious one.

 

I had a converted Joey, argued to be about 75 years old, and the 75 year old wrought iron was pretty impressive. In fact the 15 year old steel bottom, (it had originally been an elm bottomed composite), was more worrying than the bits that were 5 times older.

 

My top tip - don't try drilling out a weeping rivet from the inside (with a 240 volts mains drill!) when the boat is in water - but please don't ask me how I know this.

[MoominPapa]

Upminster. No doubt.

 

You have to decide if want to spend your spare time cruising, or fixing boats. You also have have to decide the extent to which this project can or will be "hands on", versus "commission other people". I think that doing a historic project properly (I'm sure that's the only way you'd do it) is not something that it's easy to learn on the fly.

 

Personally, I hate paying other people to do "stuff" on my projects.

 

MP.

[alan_fincher]

I think MP has a point.

 

When my brother bought Bilster, a bit of a collander at the rear end, and wanted to load her, he had no qualms about simply having a modern replacement counter welded on.

 

This was acceptable then, and many would just have been relieved that the boat stayed not only unconverted, but going up to load coal.

 

Last I saw, it still had it, with no attempt to "glue on" the missing rivets, (although more marred by the extension cabin it sports in front of the engine room).

 

These days the job done properly would, I suggest, mean proper riveting - perfectly possible, as Sickle's owners have so ably demonstrated, but something that pushes the cost of ownership up massively, unless that's your trade.

 

Think carefully about how "proper" you want it to be, ultimately, and what you will do if the one you chose already has some less than original features. Correcting somebody else's efforts can come expensive.

 

 

I don't know if you have actual boats in mind, but you might do worse than to cycle towpaths, and knock on doors, or otherwise ask questions. Just on the southern GU one passes quite a lot of unconverted GUCCCo boats that the owners seem to have either lost interest in, or at least have no time for. I'm struggling to remember exactly which, someone will know - but you might just find someone ready to take a suitable offer, (you might have to commit to a pair though, in some cases!). There's even a down at heels looking "Star" on the Thames.

[carlt]

Of course you're mad!

 

You should buy a Big Woolwich, you have all the necessary qualifications!

[Chertsey]

Upminster. No doubt.

That is exactly what he said you would say.

 

Yes, it would be done properly, and would entail commissioning others to do key aspects. I don't mind paying craftsmen to do stuff I can't do myself; it's just a pleasure to see it done well. Last week we were even getting carried away with the the idea of not only a rivetted engine room but a wooden back cabin; I think we may have resiled slightly from going to that extreme of authenticity, but only slightly. It would be important that it at least look as right as humanly possible - no cabin extension, wide top plank, windows in the cloths etc. Interestingly though I'm not so exercised about welded repairs to the hull.. they just seem to be part and parcel of its history somehow.

[Timleech]

I think MP has a point.

 

When my brother bought Bilster, a bit of a collander at the rear end, and wanted to load her, he had no qualms about simply having a modern replacement counter welded on.

 

This was acceptable then, and many would just have been relieved that the boat stayed not only unconverted, but going up to load coal.

 

Last I saw, it still had it, with no attempt to "glue on" the missing rivets, (although more marred by the extension cabin it sports in front of the engine room).

 

These days the job done properly would, I suggest, mean proper riveting - perfectly possible, as Sickle's owners have so ably demonstrated, but something that pushes the cost of ownership up massively, unless that's your trade.

 

Think carefully about how "proper" you want it to be, ultimately, and what you will do if the one you chose already has some less than original features. Correcting somebody else's efforts can come expensive.

 

 

I disagree here, there's nothing 'improper' about good welded repairs, and I'd rather see 'honest' welding than have it ponced up with washers.

Yes it's nice to see replating done with rivets, in some cases for fastening to existing frames it's the best way to go and needn't be hugely expensive but in many cases it's just a matter for the owner's personal taste and wallet.

Some recent rivetting that I've seen hasn't been terribly 'original' anyway as it hasn't been done with flush heads on the outside.

 

Tim

[David Schweizer]

We own a lovely boat on which we have spent vast amounts of time and money. It is beautifully fitted out, has a fantastic vintage (I hate that term) engine and can go anywhere. Yet I find myself very seriously considering the possibility of trading it in for a seventy+ year old project that will take ten years and all our money to do properly. Am I certifiably insane?

 

Posted here rather than in general boating in the hope of a more sympathetic response.

 

Would like to hear of experiences (good and bad) of owning, working on, restoring and using such a boat. If you have, would you do it again knowing what you do now?

 

If you do decide to go ahead, and need some steelwork done, I would consider using Roger Farringdon at Bottom Lock Braunston. He has recently finished converting a Big Woolwich Butty into a motor, and you cannot see the joins. Another very good person is Steve Priest at Brinklow, his replica work is outstanding.

 

I have no connection with either person, except that Roger built half my boat (a long time ago).

Edited May 17, 2009 by David Schweizer

[alan_fincher]

Last week we were even getting carried away with the the idea of not only a rivetted engine room but a wooden back cabin; I think we may have resiled slightly from going to that extreme of authenticity, but only slightly.

Ah!

 

But if you werre not so hung up on it being a Woolwich, you need not have that issue.

 

Buy a Northwich, where a steel cabin could be authentic !

[furnessvale]

Ah!

 

But if you werre not so hung up on it being a Woolwich, you need not have that issue.

 

Buy a Northwich, where a steel cabin could be authentic !

 

Alton has a steel engine room and a wooden planked back cabin. Believe me, you pay a high price in leaking joints for such authenticity!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[MoominPapa]

That is exactly what he said you would say.

Of course: and he'll have also pointed out that I highly approve of the far reaches of the District Line, as long as the team has a Plan.

 

Yes, it would be done properly, and would entail commissioning others to do key aspects. I don't mind paying craftsmen to do stuff I can't do myself; it's just a pleasure to see it done well.

 

A perfectly valid stance, though as I say, having to get other people to do stuff makes me antsy, and being antsy is no fun, and there's no point in boating unless it's fun.

 

 

MP.

[Timleech]

Ah!

 

But if you werre not so hung up on it being a Woolwich, you need not have that issue.

 

Buy a Northwich, where a steel cabin could be authentic !

 

 

...except that they were timber across the back.....

 

Tim

 

 

That is exactly what he said you would say.

 

Yes, it would be done properly, and would entail commissioning others to do key aspects. I don't mind paying craftsmen to do stuff I can't do myself; it's just a pleasure to see it done well. Last week we were even getting carried away with the the idea of not only a rivetted engine room but a wooden back cabin; I think we may have resiled slightly from going to that extreme of authenticity, but only slightly. It would be important that it at least look as right as humanly possible - no cabin extension, wide top plank, windows in the cloths etc. Interestingly though I'm not so exercised about welded repairs to the hull.. they just seem to be part and parcel of its history somehow.

 

You could always put on a rivetted back cabin, just to confuse people :lol:

 

Tim

[Chertsey]

Alton has a steel engine room and a wooden planked back cabin. Believe me, you pay a high price in leaking joints for such authenticity!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

Yes, I thought that might be an issue, which is largely what swayed me towards compromise. This is all hypothetical at the moment of course...

[PaddingtonBear]

Do you mean to say that we have been charging half way across the known world (well the country) in the pursuit of "Hypothetical" - you told me that was the name of a boat. We went to see Steve Priest on Friday - what a star and what a fantastic bit (lot) of steel work - a Northwich replica, in the workshop, an absolute work of art. He worried us slightly though by saying that his own boat had taken 15 years and was still far from finished although he was very positive when I asked if I could work along side him doing the donkey work if /when a Woolwich materialised.m Perhaps it would only take 10 years then.

Edited May 17, 2009 by PaddingtonBear

[Hairy-Neil]

He has recently finished converting a Big Woolwich Butty into a motor, and you cannot see the joins.

 

I understood it was the Achilles, a Little Woolwich butty, but I might be behind the times......

[Chertsey]

Nah, 'Hypothetical' would obviously be a Star class.

[alan_fincher]

If you had a boat called "Hypothetical" do you think you could get away with....

 

Hypothetical licence.

Hypothetical BSS.

Hypothetical insurance.

Hypothetical moorings.

 

This could be a money spinner.

 

Edited because of dyslexia.

Edited May 17, 2009 by alan_fincher

[Southdowner]

I hired a Woolwich called Bristol twice in the 1980's, someone will tell us whether it was large or small Woolwich, from Black Prince Narrowboats - firstly from Acton Bridge and secondly from Stoke Prior when we heard it was to be sold out of service. Now in the Newbury area privately owned?

 

Undoubtedly a superior hire boat experience I liked its separate, massive engine room, its boatman's cabin and small galley together and large saloon. The speed wheel and pull rod forward/reverse and the boat driving experience was a good one, with a certain momentum and it looked fabulous too!!

 

If only you could hire such boat or boats now, you could enjoy the experience of these craft without necessarily having to own one...............an alternative to giving up a perfectly good boat perhaps?

????

Is there a current hire or lease opportunity for those who must scratch this itch????

 

Neil

[Hairy-Neil]

I hired a Woolwich called Bristol twice in the 1980's, someone will tell us whether it was large or small Woolwich,

 

Those named after towns were 'large'. The small boats were the star class.

[PaddingtonBear]

It is a big but I am sure that the Great Helmsman will be along in a minute to give you chapter and all ten verses.

[Chertsey]

It is a big but I am sure that the Great Helmsman will be along in a minute to give you chapter and all ten verses.

I like that better than skipper

 

I hired a Woolwich called Bristol twice in the 1980's, someone will tell us whether it was large or small Woolwich, from Black Prince Narrowboats - firstly from Acton Bridge and secondly from Stoke Prior when we heard it was to be sold out of service. Now in the Newbury area privately owned?

 

Undoubtedly a superior hire boat experience I liked its separate, massive engine room, its boatman's cabin and small galley together and large saloon. The speed wheel and pull rod forward/reverse and the boat driving experience was a good one, with a certain momentum and it looked fabulous too!!

 

If only you could hire such boat or boats now, you could enjoy the experience of these craft without necessarily having to own one...............an alternative to giving up a perfectly good boat perhaps?

????

Is there a current hire or lease opportunity for those who must scratch this itch????

 

Neil

I found a way of experiencing it here .. unfortunately it was addictive.

[pete harrison]

I like that better than skipper

 

 

I found a way of experiencing it here .. unfortunately it was addictive.

 

The Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Limited, and later "British Waterways" used the term 'Steerer', i.e. Steerer Harrison. This term is used on both period fleet lists as well as film productions. Most health registration authorities used the term 'Master'. I prefer, and use the former.

 

I would recommend speaking with as many boat owners as possible before committing yourselves to any former carrying boat. This may help you choose from the several different types of working boat available, their advantages and downfalls as well as the names of the worth while narrow boat restorers. There are several working boat gatherings throughout the year and throughout the country.

 

I owned a Large Woolwich pair some years ago, the narrow boat design that I still prefer.

Edited May 17, 2009 by pete harrison

[David Schweizer]

I understood it was the Achilles, a Little Woolwich butty, but I might be behind the times......

You could be right, Roger did tell me the name of her, but I have forgotten what it was. I will ask him when I next see him. As far as I know, he was doing it for himself, but knowing Roger he may well have sold it to someon else by now. He has done it before.

[Southdowner]

Those named after towns were 'large'. The small boats were the star class.

 

Thanks HN, glad to know this distinction,

Neil