Cooker gas pipes

[Frankieboy]

Hi,

The only gas appliance on our boat is a cooker which is about 20' from the bottles.

I need to put in larger diameter pipe to increase the pressure. Would it be ok to use rubber gas pipe or would it be wise to stick with copper pipes?

Obviously the rubber pipe would be easier to fit - less joints needed etc.

Anyone had experience of this?

[alan_fincher]

I believe the BSS requires that use of flexible piping is kept to a minimum.

 

I can't see a BSS inspector passing it if used for a full run through the boat these days. (Pre BSS nobody thought twice about doing it!).

 

People will lell you it is possible to get the whole way in copper with no joints, but good luck!

[Frankieboy]

Thanks.

Copper pipe it is. Looking at it I think it will be just straight lengths with 2 90 degree bends/joints. Any idea what the best joints to get are? I know you can get ones where you need to heat them/ solder, or I guess expansion joints is the other option.

[alan_fincher]

I'm rather concerned if you are asking these questions, that you are contemplating doing the work at all.

 

There are clear regulations that cover it, (Boat Safety Scheme, or "BSS"), and you must comply with these.

 

Soldered fittings are an absolute "no no".

 

You must use compression fittings of the right grade, and your copper pipe must also have the correct wall thickness. You must use the minimum possible number of joints.

 

I suggest you read the whole of the BSS as it applies to gas installations, before doing anything....

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/...Guide_chap7.pdf

[Frankieboy]

I'm rather concerned if you are asking these questions, that you are contemplating doing the work at all.

 

There are clear regulations that cover it, (Boat Safety Scheme, or "BSS"), and you must comply with these.

 

Soldered fittings are an absolute "no no".

 

You must use compression fittings of the right grade, and your copper pipe must also have the correct wall thickness. You must use the minimum possible number of joints.

 

I suggest you read the whole of the BSS as it applies to gas installations, before doing anything....

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/...Guide_chap7.pdf

 

 

Cheers. Will have a read and a think.

[ChrisPy]

............ and have a look at Calor Marine Shop website as well.

[Smelly]

Frankieboy...

 

Are you sure you need to replace the pipe?

 

How big is it?

 

20ft's not an awfully long run, ours is more than double that with a single cooker on the end of 44ft of 3/8ths copper and it's fine. Have you tried replacing the regulator instead, they have a finite lifefspan and do fail sometimes.

[bottle]

Hi,

The only gas appliance on our boat is a cooker which is about 20' from the bottles.

I need to put in larger diameter pipe to increase the pressure. Would it be ok to use rubber gas pipe or would it be wise to stick with copper pipes?

Obviously the rubber pipe would be easier to fit - less joints needed etc.

Anyone had experience of this?

 

A larger diameter will not increase the pressure, that is controlled by the regulator.

 

The only reason to increase the size of the pipe is to reduce the resistance to the flow of the gas.

 

What makes you believe you need to 'increase the pressure'.

[steelaway]

Hi,

The only gas appliance on our boat is a cooker which is about 20' from the bottles.

I need to put in larger diameter pipe to increase the pressure. Would it be ok to use rubber gas pipe or would it be wise to stick with copper pipes?

Obviously the rubber pipe would be easier to fit - less joints needed etc.

Anyone had experience of this?

 

 

Hi

 

A few pointers -

Correct (orange?) gas pipe from regulator to hose connection in a copression bulkhead fitting to pass through the bulkhead

Out of that on the other side 8/10mm soft copper pipe, bent as nessessary (maybe also sheath this in flex plasic drain pipe)

Fit a 8/10mm compression tee with one side to a gas test valve and the other to a gas flex to the cooker/hob.

Mine has mains coming in from the back - one to the oven, one to the hob and one to the water test valve

 

[Smelly]

Hi

 

A few pointers -

Correct (orange?) gas pipe from regulator to hose connection in a copression bulkhead fitting to pass through the bulkhead

Out of that on the other side 8/10mm soft copper pipe, bent as nessessary (maybe also sheath this in flex plasic drain pipe)

Fit a 8/10mm compression tee with one side to a gas test valve and the other to a gas flex to the cooker/hob.

Mine has mains coming in from the back - one to the oven, one to the hob and one to the water test valve

 

I may be a bit behind the times, but don't appliances each need their own isolator?

[alan_fincher]

Out of that on the other side 8/10mm soft copper pipe, bent as nessessary (maybe also sheath this in flex plasic drain pipe)

Fit a 8/10mm compression tee with one side to a gas test valve and the other to a gas flex to the cooker/hob.

Actually I'm not so sure.

 

The following was posted in another thread only a couple of days ago by somebody who does this as their day job.....

 

There are 3/8", 5/16" and 1/4" gas pipes in very common use still. There is some 10mm pipe available but be sure that it is the thick walled tube (1mm)

5/16" is exactly the same size as 8mm but you cannot use 8mm tube on boat gas lines as its not thick walled! If you think you have 8mm tube its probably 5/16". 10mm is close to 3/8th but is not interchangeable unless you don't mind the odd leak.

Mike

It really does sound that 8mm copper should never be used on a boat, despite what at least one self opinionated chandlery owner insists to be the case.

 

I go with Mike, and my feeling it is simply far less prone to problems to use nothing but imperial when doing LPG work on boats.

 

 

A larger diameter will not increase the pressure

No but it will reduce the pressure loss when the appliance at the end of it is going flat out.

 

If you feed two identical cookers with the same regulator, and the same length of pipe, but make one 1/4" and one 3/8", then if you measure the pressure at the cooker with everything running, you may well find a lower pressure with the smaller pipe.

 

That said I'm not convinced this is the OP's problem - regulators do sometimes go wrong, and deliver the wrong pressure after a while, for instance.

[bag 'o' bones]

Hi,

The only gas appliance on our boat is a cooker which is about 20' from the bottles.

I need to put in larger diameter pipe to increase the pressure. Would it be ok to use rubber gas pipe or would it be wise to stick with copper pipes?

Obviously the rubber pipe would be easier to fit - less joints needed etc.

Anyone had experience of this?

 

Just finished installing the gas pipe in our own boat using 10mm copper seamless after reading the BSS document and asking advice on here.

 

Glad to say the chap who came round to do the pre BSS inspection was very impressed with the installation. He was more concerned in the lack of insulation on the engine silencer!

 

So if you think your a 'competant' person and confident with compression fittings, have a go yourself. But to be on the safe side get an assesor in to check your work - you could perhaps ask an assesor to go through your plans BEFORE buying any materials to be on the safe side.

Edited May 6, 2009 by bag 'o' bones

[steelaway]

I may be a bit behind the times, but don't appliances each need their own isolator?

 

 

Hi

 

My bottles are less than 5 ft from the cooker/hob. I just turn of the bottle

If they are that close there is no reason to fit seperate isolators, plus less joints (or leaky joints and taps)- KISS!

 

Alex

[nb Innisfree]

I may be a bit behind the times, but don't appliances each need their own isolator?

[/quote

I think you only need isolator valves if more than one appliance is fitted

[blackrose]

Hi

 

A few pointers -

Correct (orange?) gas pipe from regulator to hose connection in a copression bulkhead fitting to pass through the bulkhead

Out of that on the other side 8/10mm soft copper pipe, bent as nessessary (maybe also sheath this in flex plasic drain pipe)

Fit a 8/10mm compression tee with one side to a gas test valve and the other to a gas flex to the cooker/hob.

Mine has mains coming in from the back - one to the oven, one to the hob and one to the water test valve

 

 

That installation looks dodgy to me. I thought the BSS specified pipe support at a minimum of every 300mm and no more than 150mm from joints?

Is this work in progress, only I can't see any pipe clips in that picture?

Edited May 9, 2009 by blackrose

[steelaway]

That installation looks dodgy to me. I thought the BSS specified pipe support at a minimum of every 300mm and no more than 150mm from joints?

Is this work in progress, only I can't see any pipe clips in that picture?

 

Hi There

 

I think this must be a wind up.

The tee is sat on the oven surround

The pipe to the oven is about 300mm

The pipe to test connection is about 200mm and is (black)tie-wrapped down

All is covered by the gas hob

Why would you need any clips in this situation?

I would be interested in how you would improve it

 

Alex

[blackrose]

Hi There

 

I think this must be a wind up.

The tee is sat on the oven surround

The pipe to the oven is about 300mm

The pipe to test connection is about 200mm and is (black)tie-wrapped down

All is covered by the gas hob

Why would you need any clips in this situation?

I would be interested in how you would improve it

 

Alex

I'm only going by what the regs say- I didn't write them. If you think the regs are a wind up just carry on - its your boat.

Edited May 9, 2009 by blackrose

[bag 'o' bones]

Hi

 

A few pointers -

Correct (orange?) gas pipe from regulator to hose connection in a copression bulkhead fitting to pass through the bulkhead

Out of that on the other side 8/10mm soft copper pipe, bent as nessessary (maybe also sheath this in flex plasic drain pipe)

Fit a 8/10mm compression tee with one side to a gas test valve and the other to a gas flex to the cooker/hob.

Mine has mains coming in from the back - one to the oven, one to the hob and one to the water test valve

 

 

The only way I can see to improve the installation above is to design a clip to attach the t piece to the oven top. Even then I think it could be a bit of over kill.

 

As for the BSS regs there only a guide in the sense that in certain situations like the above its not always possible to follow the BSS guidelines to the letter and a certain amount of adjustment is required.

 

.....Hence why its a good idea you get a BBS inspector out to have a look before final fixing.

[blackrose]

The only way I can see to improve the installation above is to design a clip to attach the t piece to the oven top. Even then I think it could be a bit of over kill.

 

As for the BSS regs there only a guide in the sense that in certain situations like the above its not always possible to follow the BSS guidelines to the letter and a certain amount of adjustment is required.

 

.....Hence why its a good idea you get a BBS inspector out to ha

I'm sorry - don't understand your logic. If you follow the regs there's no need to get an inspector in prior to the actual inspection.

In your installation isn't it possible to clip the pipes in the usual way?

[alan_fincher]

Interesting.

 

My BSS inspector wanted pipes very closely supported, and said I needed to add a clip to a length of pipe that was less than 6" (15 cms) between fixed fittings at each end. (Although was happy that I would do this after he had issued a pass).

 

My reaction when I saw the picture, (although I held back from mentioning it at first), was no way would that have got past my inspector.

 

But I've just looked at the regs, and pipe spacing is only an advisory and says....

 

To avoid vibration damage and early deterioration, we recommend that the fixings are not spaced more than 500mm (20 in) apart.

 

So what's in the picture easily passes that, and it's not mandatory anyway.

 

So where is the "minimum of every 300mm and no more than 150mm from joints" from, please Mike ? Have I missed a bit that contradicts the 500mm (20 in) quoted above ?

 

I must admit though, if it were mine, I'd want the pipes much better supported. I can't justify why I feel that, but pipes only supported by the fittings, which I think themselves are not anchored, doesn't "feel" right, somehow. But, at the end of the day, if an examiner passes it, it can't be too bad, I guess.

[ChrisPy]

here:

 

7.8.5/R REQUIREMENT

Stress and weakness in pipes has a number of sources, but all

can be managed.

Are all LPG pipe joints secure, in good condition and

competently made?

Measure the distance fixing clips are attached from all joint connections.

Apply light manual force to check security of each joint.

Check condition and completeness of fixings and joints.

Check all joints for the presence of unnecessary components.

All LPG pipe joints:

n must have fixing clips attached no more than 150mm (6 in) from each

joint connection and must not move under light manual force; and,

n must have fixings that are free of signs of damage or deterioration

or missing components; and,

n must be free of any signs of missing components, cracks or other

signs of damage or deterioration; and,

n must be made with a minimum number of individual components.

[alan_fincher]

Thanks Chris,

 

I thought I was missing something, (although I still can't see a reference to the "pipe support at a minimum of every 300mm").

 

But on the basis of the bit you have quoted, about distance of clips from joints, I now agree with Mike. I think if BSS examiner actually got to see what's pictured, then he ought to fail it. (But in cases like this they would need to be thorough, if it's normally covered over...).

 

My interpretation, (for short pipes between fittings), is that if the pipe is more than 150mm long, it must be clipped. That still doesn't explain why my examiner said one shorter than that, (between an isolator valve and its appliance), needed a clip, though.

[Smelly]

I can remember it being 300mm apart... i didn't look at the new regs when I started Sudan just went by the old ones as when I piped my last boat up and assumed, as had been mentioned, that they were more stringent. BSS examiner mentioned that there were plenty of pipe clips but didn't complain!

[bag 'o' bones]

I'm sorry - don't understand your logic. If you follow the regs there's no need to get an inspector in prior to the actual inspection.

In your installation isn't it possible to clip the pipes in the usual way?

 

The logic of not wasting more time than is necessary.

 

The BSS regs are still open to a certain amount of interpretation. Every BSS examiner has a slightly diffrent slant on what is acceptable and what is not, especially when it involves advisory items.

 

So it makes sense to have a system checked out by the same BSS examiner before you fix everything permanaeantly.

 

For example our gas pipes runs across the floor behind the bow steps at one pint even though the BSS regs say the pipe should be as high as possible so that leaks can be detected more easily and they are less like to be damaged. So we thought we'd better get the inspector in (he just happened to be assesing next doors boat) to have a look to see if its was acceptable - which it was in our instance.

[alan_fincher]

Not sure I actually buy that.....

 

If the regs say a pipe must be clipped within 6" of a joint, (for instance), you may well be able to find an examiner flexible enough to accept "clipped within 9" of a joint".

 

It still doesn't meet the regs though, so if you were forced to use a different examiner next time they could well fail it.

 

On the other hand if your pipe is clipped within 6" of a joint, but an examiner says it must be clipped within 4" of a joint, then he is trying to enforce something the BSS does not actually say, and it would be reasonable to complain to the BSS office, (in my view).

 

OK, I used a trivial example, and the reality is that if it's just about pipe clips, you would moan and extra ones.

 

But if a future BSS examiner doesn't like a gas pipe at floor level, you would have little choice but to accept the hassle of moving it, (my opinion).

 

I agree everything is not black and white, but "clipped within 6" of a joint", seems pretty definitive.